I have had it with power tools

[Dale Cruea]

Last week I moved all of my power tools to reorganize my shop.
While my shop was down I was going to run some 220v wire, put up some dry wall, paint and put in a new dust collector and duct work.
My shop is the big side of a 2 1/2 garage.
I thought man this is a lot of work and money.
I decided today that I would move all of my power tools over in a corner, out of the way and just use hand tools.
Less noise, less dust to worry about. And I think I would enjoy woodworking more.
I am going to take the money I would have spent on a dust collector and duct work and buy some quality hand saws.
My hand saw collecting in about nill right now. I will need to learn to use them and sharpen them again. I learned some in school about 50 years ago.
I have a nice start on hand planes I think. Some LN and some Baileys and one bedrock. I have learned to sharpen chisels and plane irons fairly well.
I figured all I need to know you guys here could tell me.

I am just tried of messing around with power tools.

I need some advice on a good quality cross cut and rip panel saws.
Also what saws does a person need to get by without going overboard and buying one of everything.

The only saws I have now are a Lynx back saw (cross cut) and a Crown gents saw that I hate.
Neither of these seem to do worth a hoot on dovetails, which I like cutting by hand. Machined dovetails look like machined dovetails.

[Jim Koepke]

I am just tried of messing around with power tools.

I need some advice on a good quality cross cut and rip panel saws.
Also what saws does a person need to get by without going overboard and buying one of everything.

The only saws I have now are a Lynx back saw (cross cut) and a Crown gents saw that I hate.
Neither of these seem to do worth a hoot on dovetails, which I like cutting by hand.


Dale,

Good for you!

What is it that you hate about the Crown gents saw? It may be a good saw to use for practicing sharpening and trying different rake angles.

I have only bought a few cheap saws and pull saws new. I will likely stay with used or build my own before buying another new saw.

For new saws, others will likely chime in, but it all comes down to what you want in a saw beyond something that will cut well. Veritas has some great saws at good prices. Some people do not like the "modern look" of the composite back. This is a strong consideration as a good tool is a tool for life and one's heirs.

If only two of my panel saws could be retained then it would be my 10 ppi crosscut and my 6 ppi rip saw. Both of them are Disstons. I also have other maker's saws that perform just as well with different tooth counts.

jtk

[Mark Baldwin III]

I have never used a modern large hand saw, but my back saws are all the new Veritas (save for one...which I'm still making). I have to admit that I fall into the tool niche in this hobby as I spend more time rehabbing stuff than actually building anything. I really enjoy my saws from the old "big three". Disston, Atkins, and Simonds. It's hard to pick a favorite. The Veritas back saws are really nice, and very good for the money. I'm starting to learn that saw rehab is it's own hobby within a hobby (within another hobby). I have eight, only need four! That slippery slope...

[Dale Cruea]

I just all my power tools in a corner, got the rest of the shop moved around and looking good.
Then it hit me. I don't have any way to cut a board. :eek:
Just like starting over again.

[Bill Moser]

I just all my power tools in a corner, got the rest of the shop moved around and looking good.
Then it hit me. I don't have any way to cut a board. :eek:
Just like starting over again.

Well, you've definitely got a problem there... You might be able to get away crosscutting narrow boards with the backsaw you have, but ripping will not be fun :). Luckily, you can pick up crosscut and rip saws for cheap, on the 'bay and elsewhere, if you're willing to do the sharpening. I would start with one of each. I think you'll find the handles on the old saws to be way more comfortable than that of your Lynx. I don't have any of the Veritas saws, but you'll need a decent carcase and dovetail saw, and while I don't like the look of them too much, they're very reasonably priced, and will work well, being Veritas. Your Lynx is probably a carcase saw, so maybe you only need a decent dovetail saw to round out the set. But, after you experience a decent saw handle, you'll probably want to chuck the Lynx for a saw with a comfortable handle. Another direction to go in is Japanese saws. I'm pretty enamored of these at the moment. You can pick up new Ryoba (double sided rip & crosscut), dovetail, & carcase saws from LV or Woodcraft pretty inexpensively.

[Trevor Walsh]

I think a really great DT saw for 5/8" ish and thinner stock is the new Veritas Gent's saw. I used the rip and x-cut for 4 days during a tool chest class with carcass DTs and drawer DTs. They are fantastic saws, and at about $60 they are well priced too. You can read more about them on my blog...

I didn't get paid for that, I'm just happy with them.

I've also made nice panel saws using the "Stanley New Resharpenable saw" Chopped down and rehandled with something that isn't plastic and doesn't also function as a square. That's about a $10 saw plus wood and sawnuts.

[James Owen]

I do everything except turning with hand tools.

I use a couple of 5.5 tpi rip saws, with different sets -- one for hard woods and one for soft woods. Both of these are full-sized 26" saws. For cross-cutting I use a couple of 7 tpi and 8 tpi 20" and 22" panel saws. There are also several other saws in my saw till that I need to clean-up and sharpen/set. Most of them are 22 to 26 inch saws, mostly Disstons.

As for brands, most of mine are Disstons, but there's a George Bishop, a Lakeside, and a couple of other "off brands" that appear to have been made by Disston. Any of the other brands mentioned in this thread will also work fine.

As you may be aware, Tom Laws has an excellent video on sharpening, and "Dynamite" Payson has a great book on saw sharpening; both are available from Lie Nielsen.

What saws do you need? Assuming that you want a minimalist set of saws, at least at the beginning, here's my nickel's worth:

For sizing boards: a 20 to 26 inch coarse rip, and a 20 to 24 inch relatively coarse (6 - 8 tpi) x-cut (an ideal length saw should be about equal to the length of your arm, so that you can utilize a full-length stroke and get the most efficiency from your saw).

For joinery: a 14 or 16 inch rip and a 14 or 16 inch x-cut tenon saw will take care of joinery. If your joinery is mostly of smaller scale (small boxes and the like), you could use rip & x-cut 12 inch carcass saws instead. If you're going to cut a lot of dovetails, you might consider a dedicated rip dovetail saw, but the rip tenon or carcass saws will also work fine for dovetails.

Other saws: If you will be doing curved work, a bow-saw style turning saw is very useful. A flush cut saw comes in handy, especially if you like to do drawbore M&T joints (but a chisel will do the same thing), and if you'll be cutting (long) sliding dovetails, a Japanese mortising saw (Azebiki) works very nicely for that.

So...you can get away with a 4-saw set and do 90%+ of all the sawing you are likely to do. Some specialized saws may be useful, depending on the type of work you'll be doing.
__________

PS: If you re-work -- reshape -- the handle on that Lynx, it will be a lot more pleasant to use. Since you already have one, you might as well make it more comfortable to use.

[Bill Haumann]

<<I need some advice on a good quality cross cut and rip panel saws.

- If you're willing to sharpen, vintage saws will be considerably cheaper than new panel or hand saws of similar quality. Of course you also need to obtain a saw vise, files, file handles, saw set, but that's hardly the difference in price between one good vintage saw and a new high quality hand saw.

<<Also what saws does a person need to get by without going overboard and buying one of everything.

- I find that I use, about equally, a 5 1/2 point rip handsaw, 7 point crosscut handsaw, and 11 point crosscut panel saw, next often in line would be a 7 point rip panel saw. I mostly use woods that are of similar workability, so I haven't stepped toward saws set up for harder woods, etc. The only time I really need a backsaw larger than 10" is when I'm building something like a workbench, but that depends on what your projects will be.

[Russell Sansom]

A useful rule of thumb that might help you is this: Use a saw that has 5 or 6 teeth in the kerf. It's not a hard number, but there has to be a balance between cutting wood and removing sawdust from the kerf. Too fine and the saw will ride on the dust and overheat. It's simple, but makes a pretty reliable guide for choosing a set of saws. Variation in woods and the occasional need for a finer finish off the saw will drive you to pick a couple TPI on either side of the rule-of-thumb number.
If you never saw 2" lumber ( don't know how somebody can avoid 2" stuff, but maybe that's your case ), then a 5 and a 7 TPI will about cover it. I have some 8's and 10's for the 5/8", 3/4" stuff as well. When your saw/wood combo doesn't work, make a note and start hunting for that fill-in size.

One more tip. Find a saw expert. They can help you choose a set. He might also have just what you want as surplus in his shop. I haven't talked to Marv Werner over on woodnet for a long time, but he's one guy who comes to mind. Others here probably have suggestions as well.

[David Turner]

You might want to join a gym and start working out! I think you are going to find that just saying you're going to start working wood with hand tools is the easy part. Actually doing it becomes a test in physical activity.

David Turner
Plymouth, MI.

[David Keller NC]

Dale - You didn't ask this specific question, but since you're starting out with handtools, you may find this advice timely: Buy Chris Schwarz's book "The Anarchist's Tool Chest", and buy the $12 DVD that goes with it. In the book, he gives an absolutely excellent guide for putting together a minimalist set of tools necessary for the generalist hand tool woodworker. In the DVD, he discusses the specific brands of the tools that he recommends, as well as several good explanations for why he chose them.

It will be the best $50 you ever spent, and will save you hundreds and hundreds of dollars buying tools that you won't actually need:

http://www.lostartpress.com/books_s/12.htm

Of course, most of us don't actually have a minimalist set of tools. I have a good dozen smoothing planes, of which I regularly use 4 of in the shop (the rest are collector's items that I just enjoy owning, and occasionally, using). But if you're just starting out, his book is a great way to make sure that you have the necessary items for most tasks.

One thing you'll quickly realize, though, is that you absolutely must have a suitable workbench made for hand-tool use. Many of us neglect that first step, and "get by" with a flimsy assembly table for a few years before we realize that it's not only unsuitable for handtool work, it's also dangerous.

[Zahid Naqvi]

A few things to keep in mind before you switch

1. Be prepared for a sudden loss in productivity, specially for stock preparation.
2. There is a learning curve, just because you want to switch to hand tools doesn't mean you will hit the blocks running. Now you may already have the skill with hand tools so this may not apply to you.
3. Initially the accuracy and quality will suffer, but it improves with time. Factor in some practice time on learning techniques just for the sake of practice. Projects is not where you practice, projects is where you apply the skills you already are comfortable with.
4. Be prepared for some grief from LOYL, 'cause once you get in your shop and are planing lumber or practicing dovetails etc. you'd have spent 4-5 hours before you even realize how long you have been at it.

If you keep some realistic expectations in mind you don't get frustrated.

[Mike Henderson]

You might want to join a gym and start working out! I think you are going to find that just saying you're going to start working wood with hand tools is the easy part. Actually doing it becomes a test in physical activity.

David Turner
Plymouth, MI.
I agree with David. Doing joinery with hand tools is great but doing stock preparation with hand tools is hard work (and slow). I'd keep the table saw and the planer in operation and then do the rest with hand tools.

Mike

[Chris Griggs]

As someone who does not have access many power tools, I'll say I'd love to have a bandsaw (or two) and thickness planer. I have a portable ts and a router table - I almost never use them and really wouldn't miss them if I didn't have them. But with a band saw and planer I sure would save a lot of time. Not saying you shouldn't work by hand. In fact, most things I do prefer to do by hand. Batching a bunch of identically dimensioned pieces for a project (e.g. drawer parts, interior case parts) isn't one of them. All that said, I fully encourage you to start doing as much by hand as possible, it's a lot of fun, and you sure do learn a lot about how wood works in the process.

[James Carmichael]

I agree with David. Doing joinery with hand tools is great but doing stock preparation with hand tools is hard work (and slow). I'd keep the table saw and the planer in operation and then do the rest with hand tools.

Mike

What Mike said, unless your projects are small.

I love the vintage hand tools, but I just milled 30 bf of SYP (home depot 2x stock). That including ripping 3"-wide boards from 8' x 11", jointing, thicknessing to 1 1/4, and face joining. I can't imagine doing all that by hand.

[Dale Cruea]

Thanks for all of the reply's.
I am totally new to hand tools. My last 3 projects were made using some hand tools. Mostly hand planes.
I have a start on my hand plane collection. From #3 to a #7 bench planes.
I love hand planing. I like to see the curls come off of the iron.
I always do dovetails by hand. I tried a router and jig but gave that up in a hurry. Too much trouble and looked like crud.
I have Chris' book and have read it from cover to cover. It was full of good information.
I did not use my table saw much, just to rip and cross cut. Sounds stupid but I did not use it for dadoes or mortises or tenons.
I have a set of LN chisels and a set of Pfeil chisels and I have been practicing with them on dovetails.
I have not used a hand saw much since the 70s and then I don't know how good the saws were. Craftsman I think.

I know it is a good sized leap from power tools to hand tools. But I am sure you guys will get me through it. :p

I was looking for some suggestions on what and where to buy some hand saws.
Thanks. It looks like I have several places to start.

[Bill Moser]

You might want to join a gym and start working out! I think you are going to find that just saying you're going to start working wood with hand tools is the easy part. Actually doing it becomes a test in physical activity.

David Turner
Plymouth, MI.

You won't need to join a gym -- the wood-workout will BE your gym :D. Thicknessing is the most physically demanding part. I would mostly prefer to start with wood that is within 1/8" of my desired finish thickness, but that's not always (ever?) possible. I like to use the wood I have on hand first, before running out to get more, so sometimes that can mean scrubbing quite a bit more off than 1/8". I had a thicknesser, but I gave it away -- just prefer the quiet and sweat to the noise & dust, I guess. Also, its not like I'm just knocking out the furniture left and right here :)

[Dale Cruea]

Anyone know if Pax or Lynx are good user hand saws.
The only ones I have able to find on the internet are Pax and Lynx.
I would like to start with something new.
I don't want to learn to sharpen right away.

[Tim Null]

For new panel saws, check out Wenzloff and Sons. You can get a complete saw or a kit and save a few bucks. For tenon, carcass, dovetail etc take a look at BadAxe. Mike and Mark are both great guys and will not steer you wrong. Bit of a wait for both though. Lee Valley carries some of Wenzloff's saws in stock. LN are also worth a look, have not used them myself. I have the two LV carcass saws, with the phenolic handles. They are great for the money, but the BadAxe tenon and dovetail are amazing. A little heavier than others, but just cut like they were powered........sort of....LOL

Good luck!

[David Keller NC]

Anyone know if Pax or Lynx are good user hand saws.
The only ones I have able to find on the internet are Pax and Lynx.
I would like to start with something new.
I don't want to learn to sharpen right away.

Thomas Flinn & Co has a serious case of "doesn't get it". They make saws to the same standard that they did in the 1970's, which is to say that they're suitable for "weekend warrior" homeowners that just need to crosscut a gnarly 2X4 into 2 pieces on a Saturday morning once in a blue moon. The steel may well be good, but the totes (handles) are totally, absolutely unacceptable, and no self-respecting woodworker should really even have one in the shop (yeah, I know - "tell us how you really feel":)).

As far as I'm aware, your main choices for new panel saws that are actually acceptable (more than acceptable in these 3 cases) are Lie-Nielsen, Medallion Toolworks and Wenzloff and Sons. Note that Lee Valley and The Best Things retail Wenzloff & Sons products, and their selections are different than what is available directly from W&S.

Backsaws? The list keeps expanding rapidly - Grammercy Tools (Tools for Working Wood), Lie-Nielsen, Bad Axe Toolworks, Medallion Tool Works, Wenzloff and Sons, Winsor Saws, Two Lawyers Tools, etc... All of them are fine saws.

Finally, if you're looking for full-sized panel saws, there really isn't any need to limit yourself to buying new. There are 2 members of the SMC forum that regularly post in the classifieds that sell restored panel saws, and both have quite a reputation as saw filers. The proprietor of Bad Axe Tool Works also sells restored saws from the golden age of Disston, and has a similar reputation.

[Rob Fisher]

... Buy Chris Schwarz's book "The Anarchist's Tool Chest", and buy the $12 DVD that goes with it. In the book, he gives an absolutely excellent guide for putting together a minimalist set of tools necessary for the generalist hand tool woodworker. In the DVD, he discusses the specific brands of the tools that he recommends, as well as several good explanations for why he chose them.It will be the best $50 you ever spent, and will save you hundreds and hundreds of dollars buying tools that you won't actually need:http://www.lostartpress.com/books_s/12.htm... I completely agee with David here. The ATC is a great book, and although I do not yet have the CD, I will. Schwarz's advice has definitely shaped my thought and understanding of what can be done with fairly few tools. Plus I would argue that it's a pretty fun read.

[Russell Sansom]

In my comments earlier on saw choices, I didn't address lumber prep. Our forefathers had a whole commercial infrastructure of sawyers and apprentices who did this for them. They could buy quality boards in the dimensions they wanted. This is no longer the case. ( My local "hardwood" store sells boards that are run through a planer, not even jointed on one side first and selling them for $15 - $45 per BF! Absolutely mind bending ).
A big band saw can do most of the ripping close enough that you can do the finished jointing by hand, but it won't joint the reference face for you. But board prep for even a small job like a little table or a wall cabinet is a tedious chore. I'd seriously consider some machinery for board prep. An alternative is a local per-hour coop workshop. I've heard of a few here in the SF Bay area.

[Mike Holbrook]

I am in the process of learning to do more of my work by hand as well. Once you get started it is hard to go back to all the dust. I have an old Inca band saw, which I will continue to use for longer, or curved rips. I may consider replacing it with something larger but for now it works fine. The other power tools I do not plan to give up are Festools. A Festool Circular saw and edge guide are IMHO excellent compliments to hand tools. A Festool edge guide in conjunction with the saw allows one to break up sheet goods quite easily. It can also produce as good or a better edge than a table saw ripping boards, at least for me. The Festool saw also has the advantage of being able to produce an edge that can prevent the need for a jointer. The Festool circular saw with the auto retracting blade and kerf blade is a tool I feel much safer using than the tools it replaces for me. If one has one of the Festool shop vacs, then the system is great at keeping the dust out of the air as well. I will do more and more with hand tools but the bandsaw and Festool saws will likely remain in my shop too, providing faster ways to get the big jobs done without all the dust. At least in my thinking at the moment this system is a great compromise, retaining advantages of both worlds and making a air filtration system unnecessary.

[Noel Liogier]

When it comes to do woodworking with hand-tools, saws are necessary, but the pleasure comes for using quality rasps :D

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I work in a tiny back room, a portion of our "guest bedroom". With downstairs neighbors, and my excuse for a shop, handtools is pretty much it. After I finish the bench, the next step is proper storage, these shelves just don't do a great job with a lot of my tools. But man, if I could figure out a way to fit a bandsaw in there (I mean, and be functional) . . . I'd be all over it.