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Bruno Frontera dela Cruz
11-20-2011, 1:09 AM
Is there a retailer that sells Arkansas stones already flattened or are they all essentially "close" but still requiring lapping / flattening?Thanks

Jim Koepke
11-20-2011, 12:47 PM
It was my understanding that people preferred oil stones because they did not require flattening.

Of course I have seen many an oil stone that might benefit from a bit of lapping.

jtk

Gordon Eyre
11-20-2011, 12:48 PM
Oil stones are harder than water stones but still have to be flattened, just not as often. A good diamond stone will care for your oil stones.

Bob Stroupe
11-20-2011, 1:29 PM
I got a translucent Dan's Whetstone. It came to me just as flat as could be.
I recently flattened a soft arkansas stone on the concrete floor in my garage, and it worked out pretty well. I think I'm going to grab a cinder block for flattening stones in the future.

Chris Griggs
11-20-2011, 2:05 PM
Haven't used Dans but its good to hear that Bob's came flat. Hall's don't, which is unfortunate and I hate to say, because they are a great people to deal with - that is, however, the truth of the matter.

Dave (Weaver) says to order from http://www.naturalwhetstone.com/. (http://www.naturalwhetstone.com/.) Apparently they are as good as any and they were the flattest new he had ever gotten.

If I ever get more oil stones I'll probably give them a whirl. I'd also be curious to hear if anyone has any experience with Pinnacle brand Arks at woodcraft. They sell a stone they are calling a Washita, that I've been thinking of grabbing, in hopes that it's the same stuff as the old Norton Lily Whites, to use in place of my soft Ark.

Bruno Frontera dela Cruz
11-20-2011, 2:18 PM
Haven't used Dans but its good to hear that Bob's came flat. Hall's don't, which is unfortunate and I hate to say, because they are a great people to deal with - that is, however, the truth of the matter. Dave (Weaver) says to order from http://www.naturalwhetstone.com/. (http://www.naturalwhetstone.com/.) Apparently they are as good as any and they were the flattest new he had ever gotten. If I ever get more oil stones I'll probably give them a whirl. I'd also be curious to hear if anyone has any experience with Pinnacle brand Arks at woodcraft. They sell a stone they are calling a Washita, that I've been thinking of grabbing, in hopes that it's the same stuff as the old Norton Lily Whites, to use in place of my soft Ark.I bought two from Halls and I think they are going back... The soft one is torpedo shaped and thinner by 1/8" over the 8" length and the black surgical is 1/16" out and leaves marks like it is sandpaper, certainly not what I expected from a black surgical classified as "very fine".

David Weaver
11-20-2011, 2:49 PM
Surgical black will be a bit coarse when they are new, and they will be a bit coarse if you refresh them. Their virtue (as far as I could tell) is that if you condition the surface of them with use, they can cut pretty fine.

That said, I have bought from four places - Dan's (though sierra trading post), norton, halls and naturalwhetstone. I like naturalwhetstone for the soft and hard white arks, I think last I looked, they were a bit expensive for others (finer), but their stones come in nice cases.

The halls stone I got was the only one that wasn't flat. It wasn't really close to flat, and it was a huge 12x3 surgical black stone, it took a lot of work to even get a surface on the middle of it that was pretty uniform, and the edges were still falling off just a bit when I sold it.

george wilson
11-20-2011, 7:50 PM
One day I was at the gunsmith's shop in Williamsburg,and saw an apprentice trying to flatten a black Arkansas stone with 600 wet or dry wrapped around a file,and VERY faint motion!! I got their sandstone grinding wheel out of its water trough and laid it down flat. With water,I had the stone flat in a few minutes. I told the young guy he might have gotten it flat in a few years the way he was doing it!! A lesson I am sure he remembered.

Not everyone has a sandstone wheel,so,if a cinder block,which contains sand,will work,have at it.

Larry Williams
11-20-2011, 10:31 PM
Surgical black will be a bit coarse when they are new, and they will be a bit coarse if you refresh them. Their virtue (as far as I could tell) is that if you condition the surface of them with use, they can cut pretty fine. ....

What is Surgical black? That's one of the problems, there's no real legal definition of "Arkansas stone." Any blackish colored stone from Arkansas can be sold as "Hard Black Arkansas." Make sure what you're getting is novaculite. When you see a large black stone sold at a low price, it's unlikely it's black novaculite. I can't say how it will work, just be aware that there are some pretty big black or blackish stones being sold that I don't believe are novaculite. Black novaculite will have a texture similar to black paraffin.

Here's a photo of a couple stones we have. The one on the left is hard black Arkansas novaculite and I can't really say what the one on the right is but it's sold as or implied that it's a black Arkansas stone. I lightened the image so that the grain is more obvious but the one on the right is more of a grey color than a deep black.

http://www.planemaker.com/photos/black.jpg

Bruno Frontera dela Cruz
11-21-2011, 5:48 AM
Natural whetstone company is promoting hard black stones at 1200 grit, is this an acceptable final grit for chisels and plane irons, or do I need finer?

David Weaver
11-21-2011, 8:00 AM
Bruno - what is called 1200 grit should work down to a fine surface. You may want to get a hard translucent stone if you want to scuff/dress the surface of the stone often, though. Natural whetstone's stones are all novaculate, or were when I bought from them.

Larry, I've seen the stones you're talking about - they're all over ebay, especially from foreign sellers.

The ones that I'm referring to as being fairly coarse when scuffed are brand name novaculite stones. I guess fairly coarse should have a caveat - compared to the gobs of 1 micron size ceramic stones that are out there now, where you can't even feel a wire edge after honing. On a freshly dressed black arkansas stone, you can make a substantial wire edge (that's another relative term, but by that I mean one that is easily felt without having to search for it). But that said, a stone that I refer to as fairly coarse for a final stone (a freshly scuffed novaculite hard arkansas stone) can easily shave hair if someone will work the wire edge off on the stone, and even more easily if a piece of bare leather is used to remove it.

It's all relative, and hopefully we can exclude fraudulent stones. The one on the right side in your picture looks like it's made of silicon carbide or granite. That wasn't a branded stone, was it?

I have to assume even when we're discussing novaculite to novaculite, there are differences in fineness. I have had occasion to try different HTAs, and there are definitely stark differences in the fineness of different stones I've tried. I have seen several people mention that the older black arkansas stones are finer, but even at that, I recall warren mickley (who I wish would post over here) mentioning something (paraphrased) along the lines of that he would not dress his finish stone because he has spent a lot of time getting it to the point that it cuts as finely as it does.

Bruno Frontera dela Cruz
11-21-2011, 9:27 AM
Bruno - what is called 1200 grit should work down to a fine surface. You may want to get a hard translucent stone if you want to scuff/dress the surface of the stone often, though. Natural whetstone's stones are all novaculate, or were when I bought from them. Larry, I've seen the stones you're talking about - they're all over ebay, especially from foreign sellers. The ones that I'm referring to as being fairly coarse when scuffed are brand name novaculite stones. I guess fairly coarse should have a caveat - compared to the gobs of 1 micron size ceramic stones that are out there now, where you can't even feel a wire edge after honing. On a freshly dressed black arkansas stone, you can make a substantial wire edge (that's another relative term, but by that I mean one that is easily felt without having to search for it). But that said, a stone that I refer to as fairly coarse for a final stone (a freshly scuffed novaculite hard arkansas stone) can easily shave hair if someone will work the wire edge off on the stone, and even more easily if a piece of bare leather is used to remove it. It's all relative, and hopefully we can exclude fraudulent stones. The one on the right side in your picture looks like it's made of silicon carbide or granite. That wasn't a branded stone, was it?I have to assume even when we're discussing novaculite to novaculite, there are differences in fineness. I have had occasion to try different HTAs, and there are definitely stark differences in the fineness of different stones I've tried. I have seen several people mention that the older black arkansas stones are finer, but even at that, I recall warren mickley (who I wish would post over here) mentioning something (paraphrased) along the lines of that he would not dress his finish stone because he has spent a lot of time getting it to the point that it cuts as finely as it does.Interesting comment on the wire...These stones are my first steps in hand sharpening, up until now I have been using a worksharp 3000. I was very surprised how quickly I pulled a wire with the black surgical which is saying something coming from power sharpening.I am not interested in sharpening for the point of appearance on the blade but for function in / on the wood. That said, I still shouldn't be left with easily noticeable scratch markes on the tool after a true hard black or translucent stone should I?thx

David Weaver
11-21-2011, 9:41 AM
with a freshly dressed stone (my experience), if you are using a compound or very fine grit on the worksharp, the edge will look more cloudy coming off the stone. That aggressive wire edge you're seeing will stop happening quickly if you allow the surface of the stone to wear, and you'll get a finer edge.

If the stone is not dressed (oil stone only, waterstones are a different story), you should get a finish on the edge of a chisel that will look polished or close to it, but maybe not as perfectly uniform and scratch free as honing compound on a plate of the worksharp should give you.
It will be plenty sharp for use.

I don't know if the worksharp is similar to a belt grinder, but with a partially worn trizact 1200 grit belt on a belt grinder, I don't get much wire edge on an iron being sharpened. On a partially worn diamond hone or even a shapton 1k or bester 1200, I get a huge wire edge. I don't know if that's universally true about power sharpening and the wire edge on finer grits, just what I've observed. You can certainly get plenty of wire edge with an 80 grit belt.

Chris Griggs
11-21-2011, 10:37 AM
My surgical black gives a pretty near polished edge, but i swear raises a burr almost as quickly as my soft ark (which isn't quick enough). If I work the edge properly I can get an edge that can shave arm hair and pare end grain quite well without stropping. However, the edge is inconsistent. If you use it to do final smoothing it will take wonderful shavings, but there is an uneven burnish to the surface. You can see lots of fine lines in the surface - they are different from the lines you get from say a chip or track marks. I guess they are a reflection of the micro serrations left in the blade from the stone. Normal sharpness tests don't make this lack of uniformity apparent, and for most uses it is inconsequential. I find it take 20-30 strokes on a strop loaded with green stuff to get the edge as refined and uniform as I want for smoothing. I wonder if an HTA would be more uniform and enable me to strop less.

David Weaver
11-21-2011, 11:11 AM
HTAs in my experience are more uniform, but they may also be slower. Until a couple of days ago, I had two HTAs. One is very fine, but it is too slow to do much other than polish an edge that is close to where it is already. If I scuff it, it leaves a good edge, but not nearly as fine. At least scuffed it can be used.

The other was the norton I sold on the S&S, which has a bigger range, I think. It's pretty aggressive scuffed, and pretty fine if you don't scuff it. It is a bit more uniform than a black arkansas, though.

A bare leather strop with some vigorous work should remove the wire edge you're getting on the black stone - I would guess that some of the scratching is wire edge - but that's just a guess. You may already have removed it.

I got a decent uniform edge right off my of black stone when I had it, but it was not in the class of the 1 micron ceramic edges, I still had to strop it (no need with the ceramics) to remove the wire edge and it was not any faster than a ceramic.

Your soft arkansas should cut pretty quickly if it's scuffed. I had two of them, one went to archie (I think, maybe I don't remember right). That one cut pretty well with a fresh surface. The other is a pink dan's, and it's too fine to be a soft ark in my opinion, but the density of the stone maybe was in the soft ark grading range. I still have the hard ark that's exactly like the one I sent to archie, and it's also versatile enough to scuff and go fast or let it settle in and get a very good edge off of it without going to any other stones.

Chris Griggs
11-21-2011, 11:21 AM
Yep, Archie has your big Dans soft - its quite nice. My soft does cut and feel much better when its scuffed. My only diamond stone is reserved for my ceramics, so I've been scuffing the soft ark up on some 55 grit sanding belt glued down to some granite. It actually smooths out pretty quickly though and really works best if its scuffed before every use.

Yeah there might be some burr left coming off the black, but if I work it, I feel like it gets it off. Actually, I get a much more uniform edge if I side sharpen on the black. I always side sharpen to some extent but I've taken to moving the blade very very close to parallel with the cutting edge when I hone on the black. I've never noticed much of a difference in side sharpening on my ceramics or any water stone, but on that surgical black the edge is definitely more uniform when the edge is worked sideways.

Tony Zaffuto
11-21-2011, 11:33 AM
Dave,

I might be suffering from too much weekend this morning, but what do you mean by "scuffed"?

T.Z.

Chris Griggs
11-21-2011, 11:40 AM
He means dressing the surface with a diamond stone or other abrasives. It essentially has the same effect as dressing a grinding wheel.

David Weaver
11-21-2011, 12:37 PM
Yep, Archie has your big Dans soft - its quite nice. My soft does cut and feel much better when its scuffed. My only diamond stone is reserved for my ceramics, so I've been scuffing the soft ark up on some 55 grit sanding belt glued down to some granite. It actually smooths out pretty quickly though and really works best if its scuffed before every use.

Yeah there might be some burr left coming off the black, but if I work it, I feel like it gets it off. Actually, I get a much more uniform edge if I side sharpen on the black. I always side sharpen to some extent but I've taken to moving the blade very very close to parallel with the cutting edge when I hone on the black. I've never noticed much of a difference in side sharpening on my ceramics or any water stone, but on that surgical black the edge is definitely more uniform when the edge is worked sideways.

That soft ark is actually one from natural whetstone. I called the guy on the phone, and they gave me that and a hard ark of the same type in the boxes for $60 shipped. It was dead flat when I got it, very uniform and a very nice feeling stone - it's just too close to the hard for me to have kept both. I think those two stones are my two favorites of the oilstones I've come across. They can both be made, with some skill, to shave hair, or made to cut pretty quickly (but without feeling false like a medium india) if scuffed.

My dan's soft that I have is OK, but it was more expensive, it's smaller and it's not as nice. No one place seems to have everything. Some of the trans stones from Dan's are very fine, but expensive unless you get a second from sierra trading post. The soft and hard from natural whetstone are large and inexpensive, but their bigger finer stones are not so inexpensive.

Bill Houghton
11-21-2011, 5:55 PM
I think I'm going to grab a cinder block for flattening stones in the future.

I've done that, although it was a relatively soft, cheap stone that I was preparing as a loaner to a friend. I lubricated with plain old water, and it worked a treat. Messy - don't do it on the living room carpet.

Bruno Frontera dela Cruz
11-21-2011, 7:46 PM
I talked with Dave at Natural Whetstones today and he verified that they do flatten their stones before shipment, and I verified that I could return the one to Halls so....I ordered a soft/black hard 10" x 3" x1" combo stone that will be flat (flat enough anyway) from natural Whetstones and a horse butt strop from tfww, so I will give this another shot over the holiday weekend.Thx