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View Full Version : New Dovetail Saw or Old Saw and Learn to Sharpen?



Rick Thompson34
11-19-2011, 5:43 PM
I'm currently trying to decide what route to take with buying a dovetail saw. I've been looking at new saws, but wouldn't be opposed to an old saw and the requisite items for sharpening/tuning the saw for regular use. I'll list my options for feedback below, but one of my questions is what type of files and other items would I need to be able to sharpen an older saw effectively.

Here's what I've been considering. Keep in mind that my goal is to buy once -- funds are a definite consideration, but things get expensive when you buy them multiple times.

Veritas: Definitely the economy option at $65. Gets good reviews, but I'm having a hard time getting over the look of the saw. I also have a hard time believing that I won't have the urge to upgrade.

Lie Nielsen: Pricier at $125+, but seems to be pretty much universally liked. More of the traditional look that I'm going for and it's made in the U.S., which is a big plus from my perspective.

Wenzloff: A little more expensive than the L-N, but I don't see a huge difference overall. Also wonder about shipping/production time since I'll have some time off coming up where I'd like to have the new saw in hand.

Gramercy: Probably the absolute highest price I'd consider at this time at $159. This is probably my leader in the clubhouse since I'm trying to think of reasons not to go this direction and the only thing stopping me is the price. Since I plan on buying once, I'm struggling with allowing the price to change my mind.

Various older saws: I have found a few that fall between the Veritas and L-N from a price perspective. I know I'll have some money into sharpening gear (not sure how much, see question above...), so the price savings might not really be there with this option.

Bottom line is that I generally prefer older tools (almost all of my stationary machines are from the '40s and '50s), but some of the new manufacturers (specifically L-N, Wenzloff and Gramercy) fit more into the old style of quality American made tools and have made me take a long second look.

Any feedback would be much appreciated!

Thanks,

Rick

JohnPeter Lee
11-19-2011, 6:07 PM
Buy once.... buy a high quality new saw. You will not regret it. Buy an appropriate file and sharpen when necessary. LN and others have informative videos on youTube, etc. Make a vise for it from scrap wood. The used vintage ones can be finicky. Ditto for a used dovetail saw.

I love my Adria DT. Then I bought their small tenon XC and large tenon rip, so you'll still spend more money over time. It just happens...

my $0.02

JP

bob blakeborough
11-19-2011, 6:21 PM
If your budget can work with it, you won't regret a premium saw. I had the Veritas saws and like you, I felt the desire to upgrade much quicker than I expected. Understand though, that it wasn't for any performance reason what-so-ever. The Veritas saws work very well, and bang for the buck is absolutely undeniable, but I just really loved the look of more traditional saws. I ended up with a few Bad Axe offering as I couldn't be happier! The performance is second to none and although fashion should not realistically be a reason to buy a tool, but the look also really puts a smile on my face every time I use them!

My buddy has a couple of the Lie Nielsen saws and the also work and look great...

Tony Zaffuto
11-19-2011, 6:29 PM
Sooner or later, any new saw you buy will need sharpened!

With that said, I have a variety of new and vintage saws, including LN, Gramercy, Veritas, Adria, Wenzlof, plus the vintage. The saw I most reach for is the Gramercy, the saw I reach for almost as much is an old Jackson, sharpened by Tom Law.

For a crosscut/carcass saw you can't beat the Veritas. I really use it a lot more than any other similar saw. Next in line to it, is the new Veritas 22 pt. "gent's saw". I just love that little fellow. For the price, Veritas can't be beat and the looks grow on you after a while (the gent's saw's looks are not really that much different).

Some may wonder why I would have so many tools? Well, I've had woodworking as a hobby for over a decade, and earlier in my life, made my living as a carpenter. My family knows not to buy me stuff for birthdays and holidays such as shirts, etc., but they know the catalogs I leave out!

Chris Griggs
11-19-2011, 8:07 PM
I would start out with a premium or professionally sharpened saw. That way as you are learning to saw joinery by hand you can be assured that any lack of accuracy is you own doing. Simply put, a professionally sharpened saw takes the saw out of the equation to some extent allowing you to analyze your own progress. Once you know how a well sharpened saw should cut then by all means learn to sharpen. Brand doesn't really matter - all the ones you listed have good reps. I recommend something at least 9 inches, and actually think 10 or 11 is better, but a lot of that is personal preference.

I have a couple LN saws, and like the design. I have used Adria's and quite honesty I feel like the Adrias were better sharpened then my LNs - nothing too dramatic, but a bit smoother cutting. That said the Adria dovetail is 8 inches which too me seems very small - for that reason it would not be preference, but once again that's personal taste.

I guess I recommend the LN regular DT saw as a good starting place. They are now 10" long instead of 9" which I think is an improvement, and though they are not the least expensive they are not the most either. They are sharpened quite well (though the adria's, Wenzloffs, and Badaxe may be better since that's their specialty), and because it's your first DT saw it will be nice to have easily accessible LN support should you encounter any issues. Also, if you don't get around to learning to resharpen on your own you can have LN resharpen you saw for you for like $15.

Jessica Pierce-LaRose
11-19-2011, 8:49 PM
I'd agree with Chris's statement that it's nice to take the saw out of the equation if you're having problems, and starting with a new one can help with that. Of course, if you have experience with handsaws and what a proper tool can do already, that point may not be an issue.

Dovetail saws are one of the ones where I'd really go with a new one, simply because thinner-plate saws are easier to find, and while I prefer a thinner plate saw in general, dovetail saws are the one where I really almost demand it. I know that there are thinner plate english saws out there, but at least where I live, I've had a hard time finding anything in a decent size for dovetailing with a decently thin plate.

Honestly, I'd see if I could try out some saws - I think you really can't go wrong with any of the quality dovetail saws by a modern maker, and for something like this, particularly if you're going to be doing a lot of dovetailed carcases or something, you're going to want something that's comfortable to your hand and how you work - and that's more a matter of taste. If I have bigger hands and work with the workpiece lower than you, the saw that's perfect for me might not be perfect for you.

Jim Koepke
11-19-2011, 9:52 PM
Rick,

Welcome from out of the lurking shadows into the posting side of the Creek.

You do not list your location, if you are near me, I would be happy to let you try some of my saws.

I like the aesthetics of my tools as well as their ability to function. A functioning tool is OK without the looks, but it doesn't matter how good a tool looks if it doesn't do its job.

If you are determined to only buy once, then make sure you buy one that you will not always wish you had spent a few dollars more to have one that feels better in the hand or looks better to the eye.

I tend to buy old saws and tune them up. That works for me. It may be a disaster for others.

jtk

Jack Curtis
11-19-2011, 10:03 PM
I don't think that functionally it much matters which saw you use/get. Dovetails involve very simple, short cuts for which you could use a huge saw as well as a small speciality. In fact, using a huge saw for small cuts provide teaching moments.

Jack

Tom Vanzant
11-19-2011, 11:05 PM
Does anyone have first-hand experience with the Winsor dovetail and carcase saws? The price is $100-120 and the looks are to die for, but what about how they work? I have seen very limited reviews/comments. From the sharpening standpoint, last I saw they offer free sharpening for the life of the saw.

Jim Matthews
11-20-2011, 9:48 AM
My take on the older saws - if they're still pretty, no one ever used them.

If they're filed down to a sliver, they were ridden hard and put away wet.
Buy the Bad Axe "jack saw" - you may not ever need another. It's expensive, and worth every penny.

lowell holmes
11-20-2011, 9:50 AM
I didn't know what a handsaw could do until I bought my first LN dovetail saw.

I didn't have a data point to start from. I now have old saws that perform close to the Lie Nielsen saws.

I have learned to sharpen my saws as a result.

paul cottingham
11-20-2011, 10:57 AM
I have the Veritas dovetail and carcase saws and really like them. All the rest of my saws are vintage. A bit of pitting, but great steel and well sharpened. Much less costly than new as well. Couldn't be happier.

Tony Shea
11-20-2011, 3:21 PM
I just can't be happier with my LN DT saw. Is a perfect balance of tooth geometry for my tastes and suits larger 3/4" stock very well. I think that you may need to consider tooth geometry a little more before you make your decision. I'm not sure exactly what the Gramercy saw's ppi is but believe it to be a much finer saw than LN's. If you're working with smaller stock in the 1/2" and smaller then you may not be happy with the LN saw. It will work but will take lots of practice to get it operating smoothly. I actually like my LN with 1/2" stock as it just buzzes through and never gives me a chance to get off my mark, not that I have an issue following a line. But getting the saw started is certainly a bit tougher with the more aggressive LN saw. Just a little more food for thought.

Rick Thompson34
11-20-2011, 3:58 PM
I appreciate all the feedback so far. Not sure if I'm closer to a decision, but it's giving me plenty to consider.

As far as tooth geometry goes, the aggressiveness of the L-N saw is one of my concerns. The aggressive tooth pattern might make quicker work of 3/4 stock, but if it's tougher to start in the first place doesn't it make veering off the line right out of the gate even more likely? I believe the Gramercy is 19 tpi, but the reviews I've seen didn't seem to consider the finer pattern to be an issue.

I don't think there's a "wrong" decision in the group of saws I listed, just trying to find the right one for me.

Rick

David Keller NC
11-20-2011, 6:32 PM
Rick - Here are a couple of considerations based on your original post's criteria:

$159 vs. $125 is inconsequential if you want to buy once, presuming that you're not 85 years old and will get a lifetime of use out of it.

I've regretted making a decision to get a cheaper tool every time I've gone that route. I've never regretted deciding to shell out the dough for what I wanted, even if the expense was a real stretch at the time.

If you want a saw now (or in the next couple of weeks), you're going to have to either go LV or LN, or call the smaller makers to see if they have what you want in stock. DT saws are a little less OOS than some other kinds of tools, but for most tool makers, Fall is the busy season, and they're often out of stock on popular items.

There is a significant difference in philosophy between the extremes of a L-N saw and a Grammercy saw. The Grammercy is made to be lightweight and to place the spine closer to the work (i.e. the plate is less wide than a L-N). Some folks like this approach; I personally prefer my back saws to be as heavy as reasonably possible. THe other saws listed in this thread are somewhere between these two extremes, and you will not notice the difference (see below).

Ultimately, there is no "correct" decision on any DT saw from any of the makers mentioned on this thread, and over-analyzing will simply mean that you don't have a saw in a couple of weeks, not that you avoided making a "wrong" decision. The reason is that all of these makers know what they're doing, they're building on 200+ years of backsaw design, and most importantly, it's highly unlikely that you will decide the particular saw you purchase isn't right.

The simple reason for this is that since you don't have a DT saw, and presumably haven't learned to use one, it makes no difference which one you buy - you will adapt the technique that you learn to the particular saw's (slight) differences. Once you've used backsaws for years, then it's possible that you may decide to buy 3 or 4 to figure out which very small difference in design that you prefer. But at this early point, it's pretty useless to compare/contrast.

Now if you were considering a Garlick & Sons or other inappropriate saw-shaped object, that would be different....

John Coloccia
11-20-2011, 7:01 PM
Put me in the "start with a new one" camp. How will you ever know what you're trying to achieve sharpening and tuning if you've never used a well tuned saw? I have a hard time recommending anything but the Veritas saws for a first saw. They're inexpensive (relatively) and perform as well as any saw I've used anywhere. Actually I prefer it because the tote fits my hand better then many saws...a lot of totes feel cramped to me. That's the main reason I selected the Veritas for myself but I was set to by a LN. The Veritas is also one of the heavier saws...it has a nice, solid feel to it. Paint the black parts with brass Rustoleum paint if you need to. LOL. It is NOT the "plastic" saw that some people refer to it as. It's some sort of powdered metal composite thingy if I remember correctly,.

Anyhow, just get something nice and start practicing. :)

That's just my opinion.

Rick Thompson34
11-20-2011, 10:35 PM
So I swallowed hard and placed the order for the Gramercy tonight. I've been hung up on this decision for a while and kept coming back to the Gramercy, so I chose to go that way and delay a few other purchases that I had planned.

With so many disposable purchases these days, I enjoyed choosing a tool that I consider to be an heirloom saw that will be found well worn in my toolbox after I'm long gone.

Now I'm eagerly awaiting its arrival! Thanks for all the help for a new poster to this board.

Rick :D

Chris Griggs
11-20-2011, 10:58 PM
Don't forget to post when you get it to let us know what you think. That's a pretty sweet sounding/looking saw.

Tony Shea
11-21-2011, 3:42 PM
You couldn't have made a better decision, even though I'm in the LN DT saw camp. As David said, all these premium saw maker's know exactly what they're doing and make beautiful functional tools that seem to never dissapoint. For my taste the tooth count is a tad high, although I do use my Veritas DT saw with 20ppi on stock around 1/4". But most of my dovetailling seems to be in thicker stock. But even so, the Gramercy will treat you great in that thickness as well. Just keep it sharp and well used.

Oh, and we will need to see pictures once your package arrives. I think this is one of the more athstetically pleasing saws on the market.

Rick Thompson34
11-21-2011, 9:53 PM
I'll be sure to post some photos once it arrives. The saw (along with the Gramercy hold downs), are scheduled to arrive on Wednesday. Already impressed with Joel's service -- I was concerned about the arrival time and emailed to confirm today. He replied almost immediately, alleviating my concerns.

I'm pretty excited to get the saw in time -- I have a little more than a week off from work coming up and it's the perfect time to get acquainted with the new saw.

Rick

Dwain Lambrigger
11-22-2011, 1:57 PM
Gosh, great question. I went the new route and bought a dovetail and carcass saw from Ed at Medallion Saws. I have been extremely happy. The current manufacturers of new saws are just as good as the older saws you would find. This isn't like powered tools. These guys do it right. I also concur that you take the saw out of the question, it's all about technique. I took some offense to your dislike of the LV dovetail saw looks, because it is so different from the other high quality saws, but it hit me...I spent a lot more for my latest set of golf clubs because I liked the way the looked! It means something because I am more likely to hit a good shot because I know the club won't fail me. If you like the look of your saw, trust the saw, you are more likely to practice more because you know the saw can do what you want to do.

Anyway, to be concise, if you want to learn how to sharpen saws, get the old stuff and practice practice practice! You will get it, and it will do a good job. If you want a truly great tool, buy new, get the best tool you can afford and get to sawing.

Rick Thompson34
11-23-2011, 9:32 PM
The saw arrived right on schedule today and I'm very impressed.

Made some test cuts this evening and I'm pleased -- very light and the angle of the handle allows for a pretty comfortable position while cutting. I'm guessing going with the forever saw right out of the gate is going to prove to be beneficial since I won't be trying to unlearn habits picked up on a different saw.

I'm happy to know there are still craftsmen in this country with enough skill to crank out tools like these. I'm sure that would have been just as true with the other saws I was considering. Without further rambling, here are the photos.

Thanks for the help.

Rick

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p176/therick34/IMG_0401.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p176/therick34/IMG_0402.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p176/therick34/IMG_0404.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p176/therick34/IMG_0405.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p176/therick34/IMG_0406.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p176/therick34/IMG_0407.jpg

Chris Griggs
11-23-2011, 10:10 PM
That's a beaut Rick! Congrats. New tools are fun. I am excited for you.

It really is worthwhile to learn on high quality saw. Start marking some lines and get cutting!

gary Zimmel
11-23-2011, 10:43 PM
Sweet looking saw Rick.. Congrats.

Steve Branam
11-24-2011, 6:45 PM
As someone else mentioned, sooner or later you'll still need to sharpen it, so get equipped and start practicing now. By the first time I took a file to my $125 LN saw, I had already sharpened several larger saws. Other than the smaller size testing your eyes a little more, they're all the same. It's really not as hard as you might think, and is a great skill to have, very satisfying to know you can take care of it yourself. The smaller files for those tiny teeth can be a bit harder to find.