Sawstop PCS coasted down, no brake fire

[Victor Robinson]

I was skimming 1/8" off a plywood piece and all of a sudden the motor stopped and coasted down. Error code is solid red and fast blinking green.

No metal that I can tell in the ply, and I checked brake spacing. I've never had an issue like this since owning the saw (2009), and it's still the same setup, same original brake cartridge, same outlet, etc.

The saw now only starts for 2 sec before coasting down and giving the same error. The brake cartridge might have gone bad (?), but unfortunately it's my only one at the moment. I guess I need to go get another one to troubleshoot whether it's the brake or something else.

I know others have had this happen - wondering what it usually turns out to be? I'll give SS a call on Monday, but since it's the weekend, thought I'd post here. Little spooked, though it's certainly better than the brake activating, which would most certainly cause me to soil myself.

[mreza Salav]

That error code is due to one of the two access doors being open. Open and close them to make sure they are fully closed.

[Mike Heidrick]

You cabinet clean? Clean it out and try again. Make sure your dust hose is not clogged.

With a door open the saw will not go green to even start.

[Victor Robinson]

Updates:

Checked the access doors - seem fine.

Vac'd out the cabinet again - don't think this was the issue as I had cleaned it out recently. Are there particular problem areas to look for buildup? Dust hose is clear.

It's not the brake. I got a spare (good to have anyways) and same problem. The saw gives the green light when it is powered on, but stops spinning the blade within exactly 2 secs of starting it up, every time. The error code, according to the manual, indicates a "No Blade Rotation" error, which, again according to the manual, indicates either a thermal overload or a broken motor belt. I reset the thermal overload breaker and the motor belt is obviously not broken.

The guys at the store I got the extra brake cartridge suggested it might be a tachometer problem, which they had encountered on one of their saws before. I guess we'll find out Monday.

[Al Burton]

What is a tachometer problem? Keep us updated.

[Victor Robinson]

Dan Lemkin had the same problem with his contractor saw about a year and a half ago...anyone know the ultimate outcome?http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?137743-Sawstop-contractor-error

[Mike Zilis]

Perhaps try putting the saw in bypass mode and starting it up? If it runs for more than 2 seconds in bypass mode, there could be a sensor/electronics issue.

[David Hawxhurst]

What is a tachometer problem? Keep us updated.

assume you know what a tachometer is. not sure what saw stop is using to generate the tach signal. tach problem could cause the computer to give you a "no blade rotation" fault.

[mreza Salav]

The older sawstops used the frequency of the electricity to figure out the RPM of the blade. The newer versions use a small electronic circuit that is mounted right
below the arbor with a sensor that measures the RPM (tachometer).

The error code of solid red with fast blinking green on the ICS version (mine) is due to cabinet doors being not properly closed (I assumed it's the same across all models, which appears not).

[Victor Robinson]

Mike - that was a good idea. Same problem in bypass mode.I timed how long the saw runs before coasting down.

It's more like 1.2 secs. Same exact time, every time. I'll take a quick video and post it later.

Mreza - I believe the error codes are different on the PCS. None of the PCS blinking light codes seem to indicate open doors, and the manual doesn't mention open doors as a source of problems.

[Mike Heidrick]

Is the blade teh correct distance from the brake - width of a nickle I believe (or was it a dime)?? Check that next.

[Glen Blanchard]

nickel......and definitely check that!

[Victor Robinson]

Update: Spoke with Sawstop. Based on the problem (coast down every time it is started within a set time), they are sending a new "brake cartridge cable." I am hoping this fixes the problem as the gentleman who was helping me seemed fairly decisive on that being the fix. Best news is if it IS the fix, I should have it in time for the TG weekend.On a side note, my short conversation with tech support was actually a pleasure. Really nice guy, though from others' stories I wasn't expecting anything less.

[Glen Blanchard]

On a side note, my short conversation with tech support was actually a pleasure. Really nice guy, though from others' stories I wasn't expecting anything less.

Yep, top notch!! I hope that cable resolves the problem and that you get to make some sawdust over the long weekend.

[Victor Robinson]

UPDATE:

The new cartridge cable assembly arrived this morning via Fedex overnight! Now that's service....

The replacement was somewhat involved and took about 2.5 hours. Very clear step-by-step directions with photos were provided and were straightforward - it took me some time only because of the tight spaces involved and the fact that I kept dropping things into the bottom of the cabinet. But the good news is the saw works again!

For those that may be curious, my problem was probably due to a faulty "tachometer" or similar sensor, as the guys at a local store had thought. The brake cartridge cable has an offshoot to a small circuitboard with a sensor that is mounted just under the arbor shaft; this was part of the replacement assembly. When the saw is started and reaches full speed, the electronics expect to receive the proper signal from the tach - not receiving this signal causes the saw to coast down immediately.

Pretty impressive that time from call to fix was one day.

[Matt Mackinnon]

Those SawStop machines are quite a complex piece of machinery. But in there lies that rub. From your experience you've had the machine for how long? In your words, 'my problem was probably due to a faulty "tachometer" or similar sensor', but that has me wondering, how well does the machine's electronics last, or to what degree of QC tolerance are the machines built to?

In your case, you are very forgiving to have lost the machine on the Friday evening, but you couldn't get the machine back up and running until mid day Tuesday. That's a good 3 1/2 days of lost productivity. If you were a production shop, that could equate into thousands of dollars in lost income, not to mention future sales.

I'd be very curious as to what the real failure rate of these units are. If you consider that Sawstop is not a high volume retailer. Like how many Saw Stop table saws are sold per year compared to say, Grizzly, Powermatic, Delta ?? Not trying to bash SawStop but in this case, the failure would be nothing that could be resolved by any other means than by the OEM. You could not call in anyone else, for example an electrician, to fix this issue. So the down time is directly connected to the OEM's service hours.

Matt.

[Mike Delyster]

That is very impressive, one day from the time you called till you where up and running again. I would call that great customer service.

[Victor Robinson]

Those SawStop machines are quite a complex piece of machinery. But in there lies that rub. From your experience you've had the machine for how long? In your words, 'my problem was probably due to a faulty "tachometer" or similar sensor', but that has me wondering, how well does the machine's electronics last, or to what degree of QC tolerance are the machines built to?

In your case, you are very forgiving to have lost the machine on the Friday evening, but you couldn't get the machine back up and running until mid day Tuesday. That's a good 3 1/2 days of lost productivity. If you were a production shop, that could equate into thousands of dollars in lost income, not to mention future sales.

I'd be very curious as to what the real failure rate of these units are. If you consider that Sawstop is not a high volume retailer. Like how many Saw Stop table saws are sold per year compared to say, Grizzly, Powermatic, Delta ?? Not trying to bash SawStop but in this case, the failure would be nothing that could be resolved by any other means than by the OEM. You could not call in anyone else, for example an electrician, to fix this issue. So the down time is directly connected to the OEM's service hours.

Matt.

Matt, it's certainly a valid point. As there are more complicated components, failure rate is going to be higher. Being a hobbyist, I am probably much more tolerant of the [short] downtime, but for a production environment the downtime may seem like an eternity. That being said, the representative helping me clearly recognized this problem had the potential of killing this hobbyist's long weekend of woodworking and made every effort to get me the part quickly, without any prompting on my part. If they are that attentive to a hobbyist's needs, I am sure production environments get pretty good treatment as well.

This particular issue is obviously something they have seen on more than one of their saws, but that being said if you do internet searches (which I did extensively) you won't find many mentions of the same problem I had. In fact, I could only find one. You would think if the problem was happening frequently there would be more noise or complaining on the forums. Now the PCS is only two years old, but the oldest Sawstops are around 5 years old. It will be interesting to see what the failure rate is down the line, say in five more years. I don't think it's that high - they're using good components.

To that end I think the company is dealing with the reality of complex electronics as well as they can for now - exceedingly swift customer service. I don't know what their plans for the future are, but currently it seems they are aiming to make repairs easy for end users. You could imagine a scenario where if you are a production shop where downtime is critical, you might have "component X" repair kit on-hand. If I had 10 Sawstops and had this problem with one of them, I'd certainly ask them to send me an extra in case it happened to another one of my saws. And really there aren't that many electrical components that can fail - switch box, cartridge cable (which has both the interface to the brake cartridge as well as the "tach"), and brake (which people have spares of anyways).

[michael case]

Matt,

I have to admit I have worried about some kind of electronic failure on MY ICS. I have the older version that must use the frequency to determine rpm. I now wonder why they changed the method of measuring the rpm. I'm a natural worry wart when it comes to my machines. But I take comfort from Sawstop's reputation for quality and their response to problems. In the first place, Sawstop is the number 1 selling cabinet saw. The folks at my local Woodcraft say they currently sell SS two to one over any other cabinet saw. So they are high volume. Despite the fact that are selling more cabinet saws than their competitors you almost never hear of Sawstop failures. This helps me sleep at night. I don't worry that much about down time either. When I got my SS I had a very minor problem with my saw guard. It was a few thousands thicker than spec. All this meant was that it was stiffer to clamp than the riving knife. It was so minor that I almost did not bother calling SS. Without it occurring to me that they were on the west coast I called them at 9:00 am EST - 6:00 Am Pacific time. It dawned on me on the third ring that it was only six in the am in Washington State when they picked up. Turns out they man the phones at 6:00 AM Pacific Time to take calls from customers on the east coast at 9:00am EST. They also answered on the third ring. Then they overnighted the part for free. Every time, I call Sawstop whether with a question or to order an upgrade they always answer their phones right away. I can't help but compare this to my experiences with Powermatic. Once, I REALLY needed a a critical defective part replaced on a brand new Powermatic 66. I called Powermatic - After forty five minutes no answer. I finally had to get the retailer to reach them. Another time I needed a defective part replaced for a Powermatic 14" band saw. I got through this time - after a half hour on hold. To be fair I should point out that when I did get through to Powermatic they were friendly and cooperative and sent the parts. However they were sent them parcel post. It took weeks not hours like SS. Talk about down time! So your point is valid in the sense that they are more complex machines, but your wrong about the volume and about the the issue of down time. SS is out selling PM and Delta and they are the most responsive company I have ever dealt with.