Waterlox Satin question - feels rough or textured?

[Dan Spangenberg]

I am now finishing my cherry cradle that I solicited help on in a different thread here. I was pretty concerned with cherry blotching, so instead of going with a straight danish oil/BLO/Varnish, I ended up doing the following:

1) Sanded Cherry with 80, 120, 150, 180, 240, 320 and 400 using a Mirka Ceros and Abranet mesh discs. (awesome orbital BTW...)

2) Did a washcoat of 1# cut shellac. Let dry and lightly sanded dry with 400. This made it very smooth and brought out the grain nicely.

3) 2 wipe on coats of 10% BLO, 40% Gloss Spar Varnish & 50% Mineral Spirits. I applied and let absorb for approximately 15 minutes on each coat. The general consensus was that the shellac washcoat would totally seal the cherry, but it didn't completely. I could tell there was some absorption. I wiped dry after 15 minutes. The second coat had less absorption. Because I wiped these dry, there wasn't really any film build. I could tell that the grain and look was enhanced to a degree more than just the shellac.

4) 3 wipe coats of 50% Gloss spar varnish & 50% mineral spirits 24 hours apart. I sanded slightly between coats to remove any debris and dust residue. The finish was pretty smooth after the last coat.

5) I didn't want a full gloss, so I experimented with rubbing the gloss down, but couldn't get the look I wanted. The gloss would still show through in places...maybe I just wasn't rubbing enough, but I was worried about rubbing through. I decided to instead top coat it with a satin varnish. I couldn't find anything that I liked, so I bought a can of Original Waterlox Satin.

6) I wipe applied 2 coats of Waterlox satin thinned with 50% mineral spirits using a lintless cloth - 24 hours apart.

So now that the Waterlox Satin is on, I really like the sheen (although a custom mix of gloss Waterlox and satin may be nice to bring the sheen just up slightly from satin) but the issue I have is with the feel. It is slightly rough all over, slightly textured. This may be better described as having some tooth, almost like the finish on some matte plastic laminates (although maybe not quite that much tooth) I was not expecting this! I figured it would be silky smooth. The texture is the same all over, so not being caused by dust, debris etc.

1) Is this common with Waterlox Satin? I searched the forum, but couldn't really find much describing this.
2) Is this due to my application method or that I thinned it?
3) Does it just need to be rubbed out to make it smooth?
Now that is has been dry about 24 hours, I did try rubbing a small spot with 0000 steel wool and it did smooth out somewhat. I also tried a white 3M scothbrite pad (equivalent to 0000 steel wool?) and it didn't do much...still toothy.
4) If I just need to rub it all out with steel wool, should I use a lubricant or do it dry? How long should I wait, is 24 hours long enough?
5) If I want to end up with slightly more sheen that the Waterlox satin, would rubbing out with very fine Abralon pads achieve this? (1000, 2000 or 4000)

213159

There are some more pics here, but it is hard to photograph sheen/texture.

https://www.dropbox.com/gallery/36973/1/cradle2011?h=194d0a

I appreciate all comments!

[Scott Holmes]

Wow there is a lot going on in your post...

Numbers ref your numbered points...

1) Sanding past 220 when you plan to use a film forming finish, is a waste of effort and sandpaper.

2&3) A wash coat of shellac before the BLO would be counterproductive. Sealing the wood then adding an oil will do little. If the shellac had completely sealed the wood, the BLO would have done even less. Also sealing the wood before appling an oil/varnish blend (danish oil) is also counter-productive... oil/varnish blends should be applied to raw wood or possibly dyed or stained wood not sealed wood. I'm guessing the "gloss" you see is your shellac. Most likely you wiped 90% of your oil/varnish blend off the shellac sealed surface. Even more on the 2nd and 3rd applications. Oil/varnish blends can't realy build a FILM. These are in-the-wood finishes. Let a drop of your oil varnish blend dry on a piece of wood/plastic without wiping it dry; the next day or two you will see a wrinkled soft film that is not hard and would not be good on furniture.

4) Ditto for coats 3, 4 and 5.

5) Gloss showing was probably still the shellac. I suspect you have more shellac on the project than oil/varnish blend. It would keep wiping right off the shellac. A little got through to the wood because the shellac didn't completely seal the wood especailly after you lightly sanded it.

6) Satin has flattening agents added... you can't sand them out to get a gloss. Also 2 coats of wipe-on is not very much. Ususally 3 or 4 wipe-on coats equals 1 brush on coat. you may want to use a gloss then steelwool it to semigloss.



Now to answer your questions...
1) Textured surface after Waterlox? No this is not normal, however you applied 2 very thin coats and there isn't much for you to rub out. Wipe on about 6 more coats. Before you stir the varnish the flattening agent will be on the bottom of the can; you will have a gloss at the top of the can. Pour some gloss off the top then mix what's left in the can and add some of this very satin to the gloss. now you have a semi-gloss. What's left in the can will be closer to flat depending on how much gloss you pour off.

2) yes
3) no see #1 Varnish takes 30 days to completely cure. A week would be better than a day or 2.
4) Steelwool with or without lube; I normally use the steelwool dry. Give it time to cure...
5) See #1

[Dan Spangenberg]

Wow there is a lot going on in your post...
I'm sorry if it is too much information! I would rather give the WHOLE story than leave you guessing. :o
I guess I have just read too many of those forum posts that go like this:

"How come my Waterlox Satin feels rough or textured?" and nothing more.

So a couple comments:

Sanding? I have read many posts that indicate that sanding past 220 will help eliminate splotching, so I kept on sanding. Better safe than sorry.

Letting the oil/varnish soak in and then wiping it off may have been totally counter-productive...but it made me feel better! Doesn't that count for something? :-)

I only wiped off those first 2 coats that had the BLO in them. The next 3 were only thinned spar varnish (no BLO) and were not wiped off...only applied with the wiping method outlined here (the kid at the fast food place wiping your table)
So I don't think the gloss of the shellac is still showing through, but possibly.

I will apply more coats of the Waterlox satin (modified to get closer to semigloss.) So after 6 coats it should be drying silky smooth?

I appreciate your expertise and willingness to share!

[jeff phillips]

I have never used the satin finish, but when i thin down and wipe on the original finish stuff, it does have something of a tacky feel for a couple of weeks until it fully cures. The feel isnt tacky like sticky, but it kinda grips your fingers as you run accross it.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Whew....I got exhausted just reading your finishing steps.

Scott is the expert, not me. My experience tells me:

> 2 x 3/4# or 1# wash coats of shellac have always taken care of any potential blotching in cherry for me.
> the wipe-on BLO/spar/MS concoction [I've used it, too] doesn't get you anywhere over a seal coat, as Scott noted.
> Using a wipe-on form of W'lox or Behlen's would get you where you want to go.
> I dunno about the anti-blotching effects of your sanding. I don't recall reading that. But - by sanding bare wood past 220 [I almost always stop at 180] burnishes the wood, so that it absorbs less. I do this on end-grain [plus shellac seal coat] before dye/stain.
> Never had any texture or roughness with wipe-on W'lox satin on a scuff-saanded smooth surface. Am using it on projects currently in-process. No problems. No rubbing out.

good luck. Are we having fun yet? :p


BTW - very nice job on the cradle.........in case we forgot to compliment your craftsmanship while critiquing your finishing schedule.....

[Prashun Patel]

The satin and semigloss varnishes I've applied (Cabots, Minwax) have not felt any different from their gloss counterparts.

Dumb questions: Is your MS clean? Was the OV blend completely dry before you started 'Loxing?

For future ref, you might experiment with Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish. While you pay a slight premium for buying a pre-thinned product, it wipes and brushes equally well straight out of the can, has a marvelous amber color - darker than the other Waterloxes. If yr put off by the gloss of it, know that in a week it mellows to a great semigloss.

[Scott Holmes]

Prashun,

I have not noticed that the Sealer/finish is any darker than the original Waterlox. In my finishing classes I show Waterlox and Behlen's (both phenolic resin) compared to P&L #38 (an alkyd resin) and a few others in glass mason jars. The phenolic resin varnishes are much darker.

Maybe you're seeing the thinned Waterlox sealer/finish popping the grain a bit more. In a jar it's slightly lighter than the original. Both are lighter than the Behlens because it is made with linseed oil which is darker than tung oil.

[Scott Holmes]

Dan,

I didn't notice that coats 3, 4, and 5 where wiping varnish... my bad.

Using an exterior "long oil" varnish as a wiping varnish for interior furniture is not a good plan... your bad. ;)

Exterior varnishes are SOFTER, LESS waterproof and more easily damaged than harder more durable interior "short oil" varnishes.

Most likely the slow, long curing exterior varnish is causing the irregular surface. Sanding a soft finish can cause whiskers of finish.

Sanding beyond 220 on bare wood can INCREASE the chance of blotchiness, as Kent noted below. It may limit blotchiness in wood prone to blotching; it can cause woods that don't usually blotch to start blotching, due to burnishing...

Note: using sandpaper for too long when it should be replaced can also burnish the wood.

At this point I would recommed giving it a few days to dry then using 220 or so sandpaper (NOT steelwood) get the surface back to smooth and flat. Then wipe the Waterlox "as the kid in the fast food joint". Waterlox is a slow drying varnish. Thinned 50-50 with mineral spirits or as mentioned use the sealer/finish (pre thinned) you will end up with a wonderful hard durable (baby safe, when cured - 30 days) finish.

Very nice cradle.. I need to make sure my wife doesn't see your project. She asked me to build one for our grandson... he'll be 2 tomorrow; I haven't even started it, so maybe for the next grandchild...:)

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> I have read many posts that indicate that sanding past 220 will help eliminate splotching,

No, that's incorrect. In fact, sanding to high grits promotes blotching and uneven coloring. Here is something I wrote for a woodworking club newsletter and number of years ago.

Sanding wood--hard or soft--beyond 220 does little more than burnish the wood making staining difficult. This is particularly true if you are using a pigment stain which sits on the surface and relies on "nooks and crannies" to impart color. Softer more porous woods can be sanded to to 220 but harder less absorbent woods may stain best if only sanded to 150. The best compromise is to aim for 180 grit.

A number of years ago a large cabinet/custom furniture shop I was involved with did series of adhesion tests with various finishes and sealers. As part of this test we explored adhesion based on sanding grit. We found about the same adhesion up to 180 - 220. Beyond 220 adhesion dropped off due to burnishing of the underlying wood particularly when non-linear machine sanders were used. This was tested on birch panels. We also found that the resulting smoothness of the first coat of finish was not materially affected by the smoothnes of the underlying wood for sandpaper grits between 150 - 220.. The smoothest surface substrate for final finishes was obtained by sanding lightly after the first coat of finish was applied and dry. Which makes the case for a thinned first coat of finish.

So our conclusion was that sanding beyond 180-220 was not necessary and could be actually detrimental.

But, most important was that there was a big appearance affect if the surface was not HAND sanded in the direction of the grain using the highest grit used on the sanding machine. A flat pad sander produced a much flatter surface than a ROS. However, both required final hand sanding with the grain for optimum appearence. If not hand sanded, swirl scratches could show. Final hand sanding using a sanding pad in the direction of the grain is a must.

To carry it one step further, sanding at 320-400 grit after the first coat and subsequent coats was the optimum. No improved appearence was noticed by between coat sanding beyond 400 for varnish. 400 was the sweet spot for thinner finishes. Between coat sanding was always done by hand whether for flattening or for adhesion.

I think you will find similar thoughts in the popular finishing books but YMMV.

Finally, the first coat of ANY finish will soak little shards of wood and cause them to raise whether the surface was sanded, planed or scraped. When the first coat of finish dries these hardened shards are what causes the surface to feel rough. Sanding with 320 paper will remove these hardened shards and subsequent coats will go on smoother. So, smoothness counts after the first coat of finish, but not much before that.

The machine finish determines the starting grit. Jointers, planers, belt sanders etc, should leave a finish that allows starting with 100 grit. From there, go to 120 grit and sand until the marks from the prior grit are gone, then move to 150 and finish at 180 grit.

Plywood is factory sanded to 180 grit. Therefore, it's best to not sand plywood except with 180 grit and sand by hand. Get the first coat of finish on and then sand with 320. That way you are sanding the finish, not the wood. This avoids sanding through today's very thin surface veneer.