Dings in hand saw blade

[Mike Holbrook]

Just got my second auction saw in the mail. I thought the first saw had a thin plate, this ones is substantially thinner. On the other hand the second saw is a smaller saw too, 22" blade vs 26". The saw looks very similar to some Atkins saws I have seen. The handle is exactly the same as period Atkins saws. It is marked on the blade as Bridge Tool Co. No. 225. The saw appears to have been refinished by the seller. The blade has been cleaned of all rust, down to an even bright finish. The handle has been recently refinished as well. It even appears to have been sharpened. BUT, there are three "dings" in the plate. They look like someone hit the blade hard with a hammer, hard enough for there to be a dimple on the far side of the blade as well at the dent in the metal surface on the side where it was apparently struck. My guess is it had a kink or two that someone removed the easy way. I will try to take a picture later but I am not sure they will show up. The dimples are maybe 1/4 - 1/2 " in length. I tried sawing with it and it cuts nice but it does seem to vibrate. I am new with the western type saws so this behavior may simply be the rip teeth on the back stroke of a short saw with a thin blade? On the other hand I know the dents in the plate are not helping. I am wondering if these dents are a serious problem? I do not see what I would call a kink now, but I may see where there might have been one.

The seller did not mention the dents in the blade/p;ate, just said "Mirror Plate", Extra thin back. There is maybe 1/4" of one of the handle horns which the seller did mention. The handle damage does not seem nearly the issue the dings in the plate are. I could not see them in the auction picture. The saw was packaged well with with foam around the blade and there was no significant damage to the package so I don't think the saw was damaged during shipping.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have used this saw several times for play cuts now and I have my other 8 ppi saw, a cross cut, restored. I am actually pleased with the way the little rip saw cuts. It cuts better/faster than the Japanese saws I have been using, in my less studied hands. I don't think the seller made the dings in the blade because studying them reveals old discoloration within the dings. I think these indications of aging happened after the dings were introduced to the blade. The discoloration is also the reason they do not show up in photographs. The 8 ppi teeth are a little rough. I might have to find a 10 or 12 ppi ripper ;-) The 26", 5 ppi rip saw should be here today and it may be in good enough condition to take for a test cut out of the box, then I will have a better comparison. My cross cut saw is dull and my sharpening files are not here yet.

[David Weaver]

I've got a ding like that high up the plate in my groves rip saw. I can't ever feel it touching the cut, so I don't worry about it. It's just about dime size in total, and shallow enough that you can't really feel it even with your finger, you just see it in the saw plate.

Nobody is probably commenting because they don't know where the ding is, how deep it is, etc, without pictures.

But I'm sure there are a lot of saws out there with very very shallow dings that you can see, but that will never affect the cut speed or feel.

In terms of D8s and #12s, the only saws where I have large and small saws, the plates on the small saws are much thinner. If you put a .042 inch plate on a 24 inch saw, it would feel like a machete with teeth. I think the difference on my saws is somewhere in the neighborhood of 7 or 8 thousandths of thickness, but I can't remember. I mic'd them at one point to get an idea of the taper in them compared to a no-name saw I had. The no-name saw turned out to only have top to bottom taper instead of top to bottom and front to back, but it was a rip saw, so I didn't notice it. But, at any rate, my small panel saws also have thin plates like that.

The only bit panel saw that I have that seems to have a fairly thin plate is a 3 1/2 tpi 28" richardson brothers rip saw, and in the end, I think it might be nicer to use if it was thicker and a bit heavier.

[john brenton]

I have a fairly large zit on my 22" rip saw. I think it's a "champion" or something like that. It's not a high quality saw, but it is a very good user. Anywho, I've never had a problem with it in the kerf and it's just a minor blemish.

To the bigger question though, the zit should have been disclosed. I would check the listing again, especially the pictures. If it isn't mentioned or shown in the pictures, then I'd say you definitely have a valid complaint if you feel you paid good money for the saw. If it was a good price, then I say leave it alone...but if you feel you paid good money I'd look through the sellers items, and if you see something you like go ahead and ask for a discount on it.

[Mike Holbrook]

I took a picture of the blade and the dings show up much better than I thought they would. They may look worse in the picture than in person. The saw says "Extra Thin Back" on it and it is, but it does appear to be straight to me. There are actually four dings in a rough line 1- 1 1/2" above the teeth in the first third to half of the saw blade. I imagine the original owner got a kink or curve in the blade and bent it out.

I am irritated that the seller did not mention the digs. I am guessing it would not have sold if he mentioned four dings in the blade. Still I like the saw and believe it will be a good user. There is a 7 day return policy that I do not plan to take advantage of. The link below shows the saw in this post and pictures of the saw I restored.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6358794561/in/photostream/lightbox/

If you are not use to Flicker click on the sample picture to get a larger picture with white background, click the larger picture and you get an even larger picture with black background.

[David Weaver]

Well, or they tried to get it out with four strikes. It's likely that was an attempt at something, but hammering a saw is generally smaller strikes that won't leave a mark like that - and many of them.

There are probably videos of it on youtube, and I know bob smalser has a tutorial on it.

If it had been bent seriously enough to need hammering, you'd likely see it was still bent, just less than it would be without a fix.

(i am not innocent of trying to hammer a saw in my early days without knowing what I was doing, so I'm not casting stones at anyone).

Like john says, though, I'd have wanted to know it, but if the saw was really cheap and works OK, I wouldn't even bother to talk about it with the seller unless you feel it's a matter of principle. Any nice working saw for cheap is always a win.

My ding is much different than your dings, but the effect is probably the same. Would guess those dings are not new, and if the toothline is straight, good enough - the pitting is a bigger concern (on a crosscut saw) than the ding, but like anything else, use it and if it works OK, all of those details that people mention on the internet don't much matter.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Meh. It's an old saw. What do you expect? I restore a lot of old saws and you'd be surprised how many times I get fooled by a stinker--unusually deep pitting, or unexpected dents that reveal themselves during cleaning. I got a Disston 8" dovetail saw recently. Looked like someone, maybe a kid, had used the blade as a hammer against a little brad nail or something, and had put a little dent in the blade. It sticks out like a sore thumb once you clean it with mineral spirits and sand paper, but it's not as obvious during a quick transaction at a flea market. I punched the little dent back flat wit a hard wood dowel and it looked and worked fine. You can do the same with larger dents in a hand saw, but it's trickier, and I find that no saw is ever as good as new. That's part of the reason I seldom spend more than $2-$5 on a saw and have so many off brands.

[john brenton]

There enough quality old tools that I dont think its unreasonable to expect an item be in good condition, and that any visible flaws be disclosed. Im not saying the poster should call a trial lawyer, but I know I expect someone to respect the trust we all have in buying on ebay. In selling instruments and tools I know Ive had the devil on my shoulder telling me to avoid pictures of the flaw, create the illusion of a dead straight saw, or position the item so the pittin isnt showing etc. But you dont do it, and you go out of your way to make full disclosures. Then someone says "yeah, but it wont sell for as much as it could!". Uhh, yeah, thats the way the whole "value" thing works.

[Jonathan McCullough]

There are three types of people selling saws on ebay. The first group don't know anything. The second group knows just enough to set the price of their "Superior Warranted special saw a little rust RARE!!!" at the reasonable price of $99, and the third group sells professionally, at premium prices. Each are as honest as they are able, inasmuch as it is important to them. A lot of dents aren't as obvious until after you've scrubbed them down and the convex side is peeking up at you. I've gotten crooked saws from low-info buyers though. You're always taking a risk. Always best to examine them in person if you can.

[Mike Holbrook]

May be beating a dead horse on this by now but...I made the post originally because I had a 7 day return policy on the saw and I was not confident enough with my hand saw experience to judge whether the saw was cutting "normally" or not. I am keeping the saw. I now have another saw I restored to compare it to in terms of cutting smoothness and I do not think the dings make much difference. The particulars of this item and the seller may be of interest to others here so I thought I would provide a little additional info.

When I checked into the seller I found out he specializes in selling restored hand saws. Which is why his saw looked better and his post concerning it contained an unusual amount of information on the saw. He apparently does a semi restore job on the saws and then sells them at auction. His prices are very reasonable for saws with restoration work done on them. He also includes shipping with the sale price. I paid a total of about $35 for the saw & shipping. It is not easy to find a decent name brand saw for much less if you include shipping, at least in my experience. The saws I find by well known restorers are 2-3 times as much. This person apparently buys a bunch of bargain saws, restores them to a basic functional level and sells them at auction. I also discovered that he sells saws that are not all original parts. He will apparently combine handles and plates from different saws to get one good functional saw. It appears that he does disclose when he does this. My original fear was that I had a saw that may have been made up from different saw parts that were restored too quickly by a hack, maybe more destroyed than restored. After doing more research, I feel the seller is trying to provide functional old saws in a lower price point market than the "professional" restorers. I just wish he had included the information I found on some of his other saws for sale on the one I bid on so I would not have had the surprises about my purchase. In the future I will do a little more research on the seller when I find an item that appears to be in unusually good condition for the price.