Hand Saw handle repair

[Mike Holbrook]

So my first auction saw is in my shop for repairs, H. M. Meier, 26 3/8, 6 point, CC. The handle is nice and in good shape except for a thin crack. The blade was rusted badly over most all it's surface. Took the handle off and started cleaning the blade. Over half the finish was off the handle so I have sanded off most of the remainder. The handle crack has me a little baffled. I have read articles and posts on repairing such cracks but this one is a little more complicated. The crack is not all the way through the handle and the handle feels fairly solid even with the crack. Rather than trying to describe it I uploaded a picture of each side to Flicker:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/?saved=1

I was using the wedge the handle is on to try & spread the crack a little so I could get glue in it. The crack does not seem to want to open up and I am not sure it is a good idea to use more force? I was thinking about watering down some glue to get it into the crack or just soaking WATCO "Teak Oil" finish into it. The Teak Oil is a thinner version of regular WATCO which one of the "old timers" at Highland Woodworking suggested might be better about soaking into hard woods, like the purpleheart I have been making planes with. WATCO claims to soak into wood & harden as opposed to just sitting on the surface.

If the handle was in pieces, like the one in the post below or had a larger crack that could be spread apart I would have a good idea what to do. I tapped it down the wedge fairly firmly with a dead blow hammer and tried to sprad it by hand but could not get any significant change in the cracks width. Any other ideas? If not I am thinking about soaking the WATCO into it and leaving it alone unless it gets worse.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?171446-Rehab-of-a-D-23-handle&highlight=glue+for+cracks (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?171446-Rehab-of-a-D-23-handle/page2&highlight=glue+for+cracks)

[David Weaver]

If the crack doesn't go through to the back side, i personally wouldn't do anything with it. Like you mentioned, you could drop some glue into it, but if the handle ever gets oiled (and it probably should be) and if it moves more, it'll probably just separate from the glue. I don't think that handle could probably get any drier, unless you send it somewhere that's really really dry.

I have a couple of saws like that, and I haven't touched the cracks. In use, they haven't changed, either. I wouldn't hammer or wedge that crack to get it to open, it looks like a crack from drying, and you may create a bigger problem.

CA glue would go down in that easily, but if you get it somehwere on the outside of the saw handle, it will penetrate fast and leave an ugly spot.

You can always use it, and if it gets worse, do something about it later. Just make sure you use an oil (teak, like you said, is fine) that dries if and when you oil it, so that the crack joint at a later date isn't a wet oily mess if you want to glue it.

[Mike Holbrook]

Our thoughts are pretty much the same David. I don't think enough air or water has been in that crack to make the wood in it significantly different than the other wood internally. At least sanding and lightly pressing it does not seem to reveal a difference. Yes the wood is very dry. I think soaking WATCO into it will cause a little swelling possibly reducing the crack. WATCO, particularly the Teak Oil version, is suppose to soak into the wood and harden it inside and not sit on the surface. This should be a good test for how well it does just that.

So now all I have to worry about is how much more to do to the blade. I was surprised how much has come off it so far. There is still major discoloration in spots and a little roughness in the surface. There is a picture at the link above.

Thanks for the input!

[David Weaver]

I also would be done with the blade where you have it. It'll tell you in the cut if more work needs to be done. If you wax it and after a few cuts, it doesn't do anything in the cut (and that clean, it won't) and it doesn't leave gunk on the side of the cut, you are in good shape.

It would take an incredible amount of work to sand off the discoloration and then you'd have to run up through the grits to get the polish back to where it is at this point. I've never done it. It should be an excellent saw as it is, and cut smoothly.

I haven't used the watco brand teak oil, but have used the behlen a lot on tools where a thinner oil is nice. It works well. I don't think that crack will swell shut, but that's no big deal. Every very old saw or plane that I've come across has been absolutely bone dry like you've found, the dust comes off like it was stored in a desert. If it was at all wet, it probably wouldn't survive well, like some of the mealy beech handles you can find on old saws - I guess that's rot - it looks like someone chewed the top layer off of them.

[Mike Holbrook]

Cool, I will put the WATCO on the handle and after it dries put it all back together and give her a run at some wood. Probably should do a little work on the teeth but I don't have my files & tooth set from Mike Wenzloff yet. May try to clean the teeth a little better with a nylon brush and saw some scrap construction grade lumber. I am guessing sawing a little wood will brush those teeth up too.

I will post some pictures when I get her operational.

[David Weaver]

If it has a good bit of fleam, it'll work well even with the teeth a bit dull. Best way to keep the teeth clean, that I can think of, is to use the saw. It is a bear to clean teeth that have a lot of set on them - but if there is a lot of set, little of that dirtiness around the tooth line will touch wood ever, anyway, and it'll be completely gone in a couple of sharpenings. Less is more around there, I'd think - don't want to take much off the outside of the tooth cleaning. Same as the plate, once you get the saw sharp, it'll tell you a lot when you use it.

It's always nice to clean up a hardware store brand quality old saw. Since you don't get rung up on price like you would on a disston, it almost feels like you're getting something for nothing. Most of my saws have discoloration of some sort on them, the saws that don't go for a mint. I always wish I could get more of the discoloration off the saw when I'm cleaning one, but as soon as you get the saw in a long cut, and stay right on a line, and get your heart rate up, you never think about the discoloration again.

[Jim Paulson]

Best wishes Mike on your hand saw refurbishing. The one thing that I often do when preserving old wooden planes and saws, after fixing some cracks, is to treat the wood to a generous amount of BLO. Once that is sufficiently dry I'll opt to seal the wood surface with shellac or polyurethane, if needed.I agree with David about treating cracks, sometimes it is better to leave well enough alone. If I can spring a crackto work in glue, I'll do it.Take care,Jim

[Mike Holbrook]

Here is a link to the two saws so far. The crack is visible and may still require fixing at some point. The WATCO Teak Oil works kinda like BLO. I was surprised with how dark the wood got. I did soak it in well though which may have darkened it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/

[Mike Holbrook]

Now I have two more saws with one or more "hair line" cracks in their handles. The ones in the original saw I posted about seem to have extended too.

I was wondering if anyone had tried drilling a small hole into one of these kinds of cracks, to provide a place to inject glue? Maybe a little pressure on the glue would cause it to seep into the crack? I was thinking a small drill hole could be easily filled with minimal negative effect on the handles appearance.

[Jim Paulson]

Mike,

I think that I'd leave it alone. If I really wanted to use glue, I'd use hotstuff to help stabilize it.

Food for thought,
Jim

[Bob Smalser]

Wedging the crack open can enlarge it, drilling holes is unsightly, and the thin cyano glues are terrific to repair chips but are a bit brittle for the rougher service totes and saw handles receive.

One of the best ways to fix a crack is to spatula on some unthickened marine epoxy and gently apply a heat gun or lamp. The heat thins the epoxy to the consistency of water to seep all the way to the bottom of the crack.

[Mike Holbrook]

Great tip Bob. I would have been afraid that the heat would have just made the glue harden faster. I will try my hand at that with some sort of test piece, after I Google marine epoxy and figure out if it is different than what I have. I have handles with long cracks across parts of the handle that are hard to wedge open. Plus as several others have mentioned I am not wild about making cracks worse.

I have one handle where the carriage type bolt heads have apparently torn out a fair amount of wood, probably from over tightening with one of those electron eating drill/screw drivers. Any ideas about fillers for stripped head seats? Appearance should not be an issue since these areas will wind up under screw/bolt heads. Are newer saw bolts from companies like Wenzloff better at holding without tearing or splitting the wood?

[Noel Liogier]

I saw this thread on saw-handle and wish to take this opportunity to ask a question (Mike, please excuse me for being off the topic) :

I am trying to develop a rasp especially adapted to the needs of saw handle makers. At this stage, I'm wondering about the dimensions of it and so I opened a blog to gather some opinions. The blog is here (http://www.liogier-france.fr/concav-hand-cut-rasp?lang=en)

Sorry again if this is of no interest for you guys.

[Paul Saffold]

Noel, take a look at this from Tools for Working wood.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com//Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=GT-SHRASP.XX&Category_Code=TRR

[Bob Smalser]

I have one handle where the carriage type bolt heads have apparently torn out a fair amount of wood, probably from over tightening with one of those electron eating drill/screw drivers. Any ideas about fillers for stripped head seats? Appearance should not be an issue since these areas will wind up under screw/bolt heads.

Simply thicken the epoxy using a high-strength filler like cabosil and dye it to match the wood. Stick with one brand. West Marine makes one of the oldest and one of the best.

Use paste wax as a release agent and you can cast hardware in place for repairs or simply a perfect fit. If the hardware sticks, heat from a soldering iron will release it.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6490387/362212100.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3866245/47638616.jpg

[Mike Holbrook]

Noel, Paul pointed you in the correct direction. For some reason the Gramercy Tools Handle Maker's Rasp has been out of stock for quite a while. I think it has been a couple months at least, as I was waiting for them to show as in stock. Would be nice to have another source for these.

Bob, thanks for the additional edification.
I found the West Marine epoxy yesterday. I actually had some for canoe repair but think I am out of stock. As I recall they offer fillers & dies to add to it too. I use to have a West catalog somewhere, but I will find the current info. on line.

Here is a link to the two handles I am working on now:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/

[Jim Paulson]

One of the best ways to fix a crack is to spatula on some unthickened marine epoxy and gently apply a heat gun or lamp. The heat thins the epoxy to the consistency of water to seep all the way to the bottom of the crack.

Thanks for this thread and for talking about using heated epoxy. Since I am not familar with West Marine products, I'm guessing that we aren't talking about a 5 minute epoxy but one that has longer set time.

As I don't use epoxy that much and don't repair cracked saw handles very often, my preference is purchase a product in a small quantity. I looked at the West Marine website and I would appreciate some suggestions for which product(s) would be ideal in fixing cracks. I don't think I'd be using epoxy to fill gaps though.

Jim

[Mike Holbrook]

Paul, I think West does make epoxy to fill voids. I was doing repairs to holes and cracks in a fiberglass canoe and used their epoxy & various fillers & cloths to fix some fairly major damage. I have a cousin who has a business doing repair to boats on the coast of South Carolina and he swears by their products. I know I bought a kit at one time that came with smaller packages of their product for smaller jobs. If someone who does not know more about using these products does not step up I will give my cousin a call and find out more. Check West's kits. The kit I bought had small brushes, spatulas..different substances to add to epoxy...I believe their products are freguently used to repair much larger damage to wooden boats than what we are talking about.

[Bob Smalser]

1) I'm guessing that we aren't talking about a 5 minute epoxy but one that has longer set time.

2) As I don't use epoxy that much and don't repair cracked saw handles very often, my preference is purchase a product in a small quantity.



1) That's right. Leave the glues found in supermarkets to Harry Homeowner.

2) West makes 1oz, foil repair packets of their basic 101 resin and 205 hardener. You can buy them in packs of six.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/products/_resampled/ResizedImage200261-J-101-Handy-Repair-Pack.gif

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/105-system-kits

West also makes different hardeners to control open time in hot or cold weather. They make dyes and two basic thickeners...a weak microballoon fairing compound that's easy to sand and full-strength cabosil that is strong but not easy to sand. Read the instructions when gluing. Both have their uses in the shop...especially to fill gaps...and a second coat of cabosil-thickened epoxy is important in glueups that receive clamping pressure.

For cracks, another tip is to warm the wood so it is warmer than the air in your shop. Then the temperature gradient will cause the epoxy to be sucked into the crack after lightly heating...without bubbles forming. Bubbles rising to the surface of a glueup generally aren't offgassing of the wood, but caused by the wood being colder then the air. Warm it so it isn't.

Last, excess epoxy cleans off of hands, clothes, tools and wood using white vinegar and a disposable shop towel.

In this day and age, it's kind of absurd to tackle wood repairs without basic epoxy skills. There are no other sound alternatives for so many applications. Cyanos don't fill gaps well and are too brittle to take any structural stress. And nothing useful will stick to Titebond...including epoxy...making Titebond-contaminated cracks impossible to repair further without letting in new wood. It also interferes with staining and has all the sanding qualities of Tupperware. How this junk glue got to be so popular escapes me entirely.

Before:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3866245/399851415.jpg

After:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3866245/399851416.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3866245/387722650.jpg

[Mike Holbrook]

What he said!

I think that is the exact kit I bought and used up before, great product. I think I bought a couple extra fillers too. I wonder if anyone has ever abraded/cut away an area and added cloth to hold enough epoxy to make a major repair? I know it works on boats. I guess the problem is matching the look of the wood in the surface area covering the cloth. Probably when the problem gets that serious it is easier to start with a fresh piece of wood & just make a new handle though. Soon as I get to it I will have to place another order with West. I have to check my boat hulls first though.

[Jim Paulson]

Bob, thanks for the information. You provided very helpful advice and I plan to get some of that product. Also, you did an awesome repair on the gun stock.

I confess that I understated my use of epoxy as I've benefitted from using it many times. But, what I've used has been the 5 minute set up time variety and not to stabilize/repair cracks. So it will be great to use the West Marine product when the situation warrants it.

Jim

[Bob Smalser]

The 5-minute epoxies won't heat without setting up. And there's not enough time to dye and thicken them. Further, mix too much and they will "kick off" in the pot, which is also a problem with all epoxies in hot weather.

[John T Barker]

Have you considered making a new handle? Tiger maple perhaps?

John

[David Weaver]

Noel, take a look at this from Tools for Working wood.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com//Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=GT-SHRASP.XX&Category_Code=TRR

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Except Joel's is already a good one and sets the bar for form and price, and the price at least is unlikely to be duplicated by a euro rasp (plus it would be rude to copy it outright).

[Jim Koepke]

How this junk glue got to be so popular escapes me entirely.

Inexpensive, mindless application and available everywhere seems to have trumped using the brain and spending a bit more in many aspects of modern life.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

I have been wondering about that rasp though David. I believe it has been "out of stock" for 3 months maybe more. I am wondering if that means it is a dead product or not obtainable...Maybe I need to give them a call. I don't think there is anything very unique about it. It looks like a slightly narrower version of a half round rasp with a little curve in the body. I have ben unable to get any sort of input on the Gramercy rasps, other than what the info. at the site says either.

Yes, I am considering making new handles. I have a handle for a saw kit in the mail. I also plan to pick up a board, Bubinga seems to be a favorite. I like hickory for handles too and I imagine it is less expensive. I have handle designs from Mike's web site and just found out from him a day or two ago that at 100% print they should be to scale. I also have a few saw handles now that I can copy. If I just had a better rasp or two for working on handles...

Many thanks to Bob for the lessons in handle repair & appropriate use of epoxy!

[David Weaver]

There are made somewhere east of western europe. I can't remember if it's in eastern europe or india.

Compared to nearly all furniture rasps, the round is a much tighter curve, and the point is shaped more intentionally toward saw handle making than the point that's usually on furniture or musical instrument rasps. The rasps themselves are also bent the opposite direction that a lot of half round rasps are bent.

I haven't seen another rasp like them anywhere, though something may have been found in old shops where a blacksmith or craftspeople would've bent their own rasps.

No clue why they're out of stock, maybe joel will chime in. Even if it takes a month to get another one, I'd buy one if you are going to make saw handles - they are so well designed for it that I don't like using any of my other rasps once the rougest work is done.

[Mike Holbrook]

I went to order one, but I believe they went out of stock that day. I have been waiting for them to show back up in stock for quite a while, checking regularly.