Monster captive arm system, how deep?

[Dan Forman]

To those who have both, how deep do you feel comfortable going with the Monster captive arm system as opposed to the articulated arm? I have a chunk of walnut that I think would like to become a deep vase rather than two smaller forms. It's about 15" long, so figure a 12 or 13" vase. I have used the articulated, but not the captive arm yet. It appears that the 3/4" bar is only about 12" long including the extension. The swan neck is only 5/8" diameter, so if using both for additional depth, there will be that transition bump, which I think would cause a problem. Am I missing something? Is 12" the deepest you can go with this system without buying extra bars? Thanks

Dan

[John Keeton]

Dan, I do not yet have the captured system, though it is on my list. But, I think you will find that most folks use the 1" bar that Randy can provide for going deep with the captured rig. I know Steve S. has that bar, and I have seen various posts by others indicating that.

I will be interested in the responses you get.

[Roger Chandler]

Dan,

I have the standard 3/4 " bar that came with the Monster Articulated rig...............it can go to about 12 inches over the tool rest before the chatter gets a little much............

I also had a guy make me a 24" boring bar out of rectangular shaped cold rolled steel and turn the tang to fit into the monster arm..........I can hollow 18" or so with that...............this guy can make me an even bigger bar .........he has made many of them for other turners to put into handles.................I think I can get one to fit my rig that will allow me to go up to about 30 inches deep maybe a little more.

The key is to fit the tang of the bar into the socket on the articulated arm and tighten down the set screws. I used that bar he made me last week.............wow, it works great.

If you are interested in one of these, then send me a PM with some contact info, and I will have him make you one!

[John Keeton]

Roger, I guess at some point, bed length of the lathe comes into play?? If you have a 30" piece on the lathe, you need some room for the Monster rig, and while one could "work up" to the longer bar, there may still be some limitations to that, I suspect. Just thinking it through....or trying to, without sitting down with a pencil and paper.

[Roger Chandler]

Roger, I guess at some point, bed length of the lathe comes into play?? If you have a 30" piece on the lathe, you need some room for the Monster rig, and while one could "work up" to the longer bar, there may still be some limitations to that, I suspect. Just thinking it through....or trying to, without sitting down with a pencil and paper.

John,

You are correct about the limiting factor of bed length.......my lathe is 47 inches between centers, so I can get by with a little more length on a bar. The point I was trying to share with Dan is that one can still get deep with the benefits of an articulating arm mechanism, which is smoother to operate [my opinion] than most captured systems I have seen in action.

the Monster one..........I have not seen in action.........the Jameison, I took for a test drive at our symposium last October. I was nice and smooth, but I still prefer the articulated to it.

[John Keeton]

Agreed on the articulating system!!! Way more responsive, and if one could get the depth needed with larger bars, that would be the way to go. I am sure the bearings are plenty sufficient to take the load.

[Roger Chandler]

Agreed on the articulating system!!! Way more responsive, and if one could get the depth needed with larger bars, that would be the way to go. I am sure the bearings are plenty sufficient to take the load.

The articulated system allows one to get up close to the form with hands on the bar itself, which only enhances control, and you don't lose any of the smoothness of the system itself. I have no doubt that the Monster system will handle most any bar one could fit onto their lathe bed. One option is to take off the tailstock which will allow a few more inches of reach, if one wanted to do that

[Roger Chandler]

Another thought on this...........there is a point I believe, that one could out stretch the capabilities of the articulated arms on the Monster rig...........too long a bar would bind up the arms when one had to make a cut at an acute angle way up under a lip on a wide hollow form. The arms simply would not be long enough to accomodate the movement at that acute an angle......that is why one would likely need a swan neck type of end for getting under a wide form that was also really deep.

I guess in everything there are trade-offs, but I think up to about 30-33 inches, the monster rig the way it is with a larger/longer bar will work fine............not that I have worked that out on paper, just an informed estimate, so take it with a grain of salt!

[David E Keller]

The larger bars aren't necessary when working under the shoulder since its still a relatively short reach. On deeper forms, the straight cutter will reach pretty far to the side if the bar allows the reach. I recently went about 12-13" with the standard articulating set up, but I'm considering getting some larger bars to make that less exciting! Anybody know what Randy charges for larger bars?

[Fred Belknap]

I did an end grain vase last week , max depth 9.5" withe the articulated monster and I felt that I was about the max it would reach. I would like to go a little deeper.

[Roger Chandler]

David and Fred,

Check out this link to the thread where I showed my bar I had made............If you want I can have the guy make you one, or I can give you his contact info.........mine was $75.00 and it is really a great tool........extremely well made!

I just spoke with Denny Martin who make these and he is in Richmond at the present time, but will send me a .pdf brochure to my email later tonight, and if you or anyone else wants to see his work, then you can send me a PM with your email, and I will send you a copy of the .pdf file and you can see them much better than the pics on my thread below:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?169657-Goin-Deep!&highlight=


(http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?169657-Goin-Deep!&highlight=)

[Dan Forman]

Thanks to all for the input, will PM Roger with contact info.

Dan

[Roger Chandler]

Related to this bar I have.........the force of the rotation on the bar is diminished as the bar gets bigger, and also the toolrest carries the blunt of the stress on the bar...........the tang on the end that I had turned down to 5/8" to match the socket for the monster arm slips into it and is secured by set screws.......this is a very good fit into the socket with no slop.........and a flat on the tang for the set screws to seat against.............

I am not in the least concerned about the structural integrity of the bar............If the monster rig will handle it, then the bar has become part of the system with this fit and set screws to hold in place............all integrated to a single functioning unit.

[Bill Bulloch]

The deepest I have gone with the Monster Articulated Arm's Standard Bar is nine inches and it was fairly rough going. I would hesitate to go much deeper without upgrading to a thicker bar. But then -- maybe I'm just a Sissy.

[Roger Chandler]

One of the factors in the "chatter" one gets with hollowing is how often you clean out the shavings from the inside of the form as you go along..........on some forms that can mean as little as every 30-45 seconds I have found to keep the chatter to a minimum...........

It is a real pain to stop and start and stop and start, however, it really does make a difference in the ease of cutting........I use a shop vac to clean mine out.........I used to use compressed air.........I just like not having to clean up the shavings all over again! ;)

[Steve Schlumpf]

Dan - I have and use both of Randy's hollowing systems. I find I use the captured for at least 90% of the work and then switch over to the articulated for finishing things up. I find the captured system is extremely easy to move and maybe it is just because I started out with it... don't feel the need to change over to the articulated with every piece turned.

Anyway, using the captured system I have gone 11" deep in a couple of vases that I turned. The real key to turning deep is to keep reducing the size of the cutter as you get further into the form. That and take your time!!

[Dan Forman]

Steve---John said that you have an optional 1" bar, do you use that to get to 11", or will it go farther?
Dan

[Rick Markham]

Just a (IMO) statement, I've got quite an assortment of boring bars at this point. Almost all of which I have used. There is a HUGE difference between how a hardened tool steel bar performs vs. a non hardened bar. Substantially less flex/vibration. :) The 1" bar on the Kobra is hardened tool steel and there are fellas going 22" deep with it. At 14" there is no vibration in my experience.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Dan - I was talking only about the standard setup - figuring you didn't have the 1" bar. With the 1" I would think you could go 15" with no problem... but I haven't hollowed anything that deep with it yet. Only had it a couple of weeks and it sure is nice as there is NO vibration! Only thing you do have to be aware of is that the laser will not reach to the cutter tip when using the 1" bar. No big deal... but it forces you to think about where you are inside the form while hollowing.

[Dan Forman]

Thanks Rick, I was wondering about that.

Dan

[Dan Forman]

Steve, I don't have the larger bar yet. Is the 1" bar longer? I'm afraid not being able to use the laser would be a big deal for me. How long is the new bar, and how much "too long" is it? Wonder how Roger is coping with that?

Dan

[Rick Markham]

I would imagine that if you needed a longer laser that Randy would make one ;) or at least point you in the right direction to retrofit yours

[Roger Chandler]

Steve, I don't have the larger bar yet. Is the 1" bar longer? I'm afraid not being able to use the laser would be a big deal for me. How long is the new bar, and how much "too long" is it? Wonder how Roger is coping with that?

Dan

Dan,

After reading your question to Steve, I went out to the shop and put the bar I had made onto the monster rig and did some measuring.........my boring bar is 24" from end to end [including tang] and my laser bar is 27 inches...........more than enough to take care of positioning the laser at the cutting tip. No problems!

[Dan Forman]

Does anyone know if the 1" Monster bar is hardened or not? It doesn't say one way or the other on the Monster website.

Dan

[Roger Chandler]

A note to everyone............I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in trying to sell anyone on anything, including this bar.........that being said...........I think this is a really great tool, and it has been proven by others who are professional turners i.e. Fred Williamson and others who have used these bars from Denny Martin and have had excellent results.........

I have zero financial interest or any other for that matter in what Denny makes............I will say that he is a fine man, and a genuinely honest person.............just thought this should be said.............I will help anyone who wants to make contact with him able to do so.................I just want everyone to know that I am not trying to sell these whatsoever..........they have just been a great tool for me and some others.

[Roger Chandler]

To help everyone interested in this bar to visualize.........this morning I took a few pics to show the set up.......they say a picture is worth a thousand words...........

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The first shows the rectangle shape of the bar and length.......the second shows the laser arm reaching out past the cutting tip.........the third is a close up of the cutter end and the last one shows where the tang mates into the monster arm with the set screws.

hope this helps any who were interested.

[Dan Forman]

Roger, don't worry, and thanks for the pics.

I just talked to Randy of Monster, and he answered a few of my questions, so I thought I would post them here. The bar is 17 or 18" long (forgot already :confused:), is tool steel but not hardened. He said there is no noticeable difference in stiffness between regular tool steel and hardened tool steel, that he looked into that. I imagine that might be different for cold rolled steel. He also said that Steve's laser bar is shorter than the later ones, and that there is no problem with all but the earliest models. He thought it should go to 15" without problem, but says it depends on how aggressive one is, and the type of wood used. He doesn't have any more bars left, so it's at least two weeks out before he can ship another one.

What I'm weighing now, is which way to go. A round Monster bar would have three advantages for me. It could use a smaller entry hole, the round bar would have less surface area touching the tool rest, so should move easier than the rectangular one, and, mainly, would allow the use of all of the various Monster cutting implements, including carbide and tool steel scrapers that I already have.

The bar that Roger has would probably be available sooner, can probably go deeper, but would be limited to 1/4" bits, and the Hunter type carbide scraper that is designed to the tool, that costing an extra $45.

Dan

[Roger Chandler]

Dan [and everyone else]

I got an email from Denny today, and he said he was considering making a swivel head cutter as well for this bar.........just thought you might like to know that bit of info..............that will make 3 types of cutters........all HHS........

1/4" square cutter
round carbide cutter at a 33-35 degree angle
swivel head cutter for positioning at any angle needed

[robert baccus]

One of the problems of deep boring is the cutter used at such a length over the tool bar. i have been using the woodcut hook tool with a limiter for many years without a catch, which is exciting at 10-15" deep. i use a homemade 1&1/8" bar on a captured (with a metal trap) rig but i do have a low bed extension which gives me more length to work with. this is on a PM 3520. i also use teardrop and 3/16" cutter tips. for chip removal i splurged and bought an upright 3hp aircompressor and a long wand to clear vases. this cutter is very fast to put wood on the floor.-----------------old forester

[David E Keller]

Roger, don't worry, and thanks for the pics. I just talked to Randy of Monster, and he answered a few of my questions, so I thought I would post them here. The bar is 17 or 18" long (forgot already :confused:), is tool steel but not hardened. He said there is no noticeable difference in stiffness between regular tool steel and hardened tool steel, that he looked into that. I imagine that might be different for cold rolled steel. He also said that Steve's laser bar is shorter than the later ones, and that there is no problem with all but the earliest models. He thought it should go to 15" without problem, but says it depends on how aggressive one is, and the type of wood used. He doesn't have any more bars left, so it's at least two weeks out before he can ship another one. What I'm weighing now, is which way to go. A round Monster bar would have three advantages for me. It could use a smaller entry hole, the round bar would have less surface area touching the tool rest, so should move easier than the rectangular one, and, mainly, would allow the use of all of the various Monster cutting implements, including carbide and tool steel scrapers that I already have. The bar that Roger has would probably be available sooner, can probably go deeper, but would be limited to 1/4" bits, and the Hunter type carbide scraper that is designed to the tool, that costing an extra $45. DanDan, did Randy happen to mention the cost of the larger bar?

[Dan Forman]

The 1" Monster bar is $88.00. I meant to put that in my earlier post but guess I forgot.

Dan

[Roger Chandler]

I received another email from Denny Martin this morning..........he made a tear drop scraper for one of his bars for a creeker from Michigan..........a lady named Cheryl. He is going to be making more of these as well as the other tips mentioned in the above post of mine............that will bring the total up to 4 cutter tips as of now............

Denny is interested in machining these bars and tips to meet the needs that turners have.............it is nice to have the input of turners who like to hollow wood...........chime in with what works for you and I will pass it along to Denny.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Dan my 1" bar is 18". I haven't tried anything over 13" deep but it handled it well.