30 mm Spindle Question

[Charles Brown]

I'm working on moving my new felder combination machine into my shop but had a question about tooling for the spindle. There is a 30 mm spindle that comes with the machine and I need to buy some tooling for it. I know 30 mm is not the same as 1 1/4", but do I have to order 1 1/4" cutters and bush them down to 30 mm? Or can I order 30 mm cutters, accessories, etc.? I've only had experience buying 1 1/4", 1", or 3/4" cutters.

Thanks,
Charlie

[Peter Quinn]

You can certainly buy 30mm tooling from most major commercial manufacturers. Hammer or Felder sell some pretty good stuff for 30mm as does Schmidt, Garniga, I think freeborn too.You could also buy another spindle size to use any tooling you already have.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm not sure they make bushings to go from 30mm to 1-1/4" as the material would be awfully thin???

I think if your just starting out buying tooling I'd probably switch to a 1-1/4" spindle. Reason being is that it's more common than 30mm over here. So finding good deals on used cutters and heads is more likely with 1-1/4".

Of course you can also just buy 30mm tooling as Peter suggested.

I'm not a fan of having a spindle where you need to use bushings on all your cutters. I do use them occasionally on my smaller shaper, I just wouldn't want to do it for everything.

good luck,
JeffD

[Don Wacker]

I agree with just changing to 1 1/4 spindle but Amana does make 30 to 1 1/4 and 3/4 "t" bushings.

Don

[Ryan Mooney]

I would ask over on the Felder Owners Group at yahoo.

The hammer machine I have came with a 1" spindle, and felder sold me a set of 1" to 30mm bushings (the machine also came with a 1" to 1.25" set of bushings). The difference between 1" and 30mm is only 0.18" and have had no problems yet (knock wood) so 30mm to 1.25" should be fine. Obviously you have to be super careful about making sure you get everything locked down good with the bushings - I've never done it (again yet) but have heard horror stories about people friction welding the cutters to the spindle which seems like it would be more probable with bushings, so I'm been overly paranoid with that setup.

[Charles Brown]

Jeff, I guess I'm not so much looking for used cutters but a reputable manufacturer that will be around to sell more cutters in the future. I've used amana tooling and think its fine. The only insert cutters I've used (aside from moulding heads with corregated knives for large shapers) is what I thought was a flimsy aluminum cutter block from CMT. Maybe they've improved the quality of these items?

I wasn't thrilled with the idea of a 1 1/4" to 30 mm bushing but was just throwing the idea out there.

I will look into a 1 1/4" spindle for the machine but will continue to look for 30 mm cutters.

[Rod Sheridan]

Charles, the issue won't be whether you'll be able to obtain 30mm tooling in the future, it may be whether you can obtain 1 1/4" tooling.

Remember that North America is a small market compared to the world market, and that the imperial system isn't common at all.

Go ahead and buy as much 30mm tooling as you want, the 30 and 40mm sizes are the way of the future..............Rod.

[Charles Brown]

Charles, the issue won't be whether you'll be able to obtain 30mm tooling in the future, it may be whether you can obtain 1 1/4" tooling.

Remember that North America is a small market compared to the world market, and that the imperial system isn't common at all.

Go ahead and buy as much 30mm tooling as you want, the 30 and 40mm sizes are the way of the future..............Rod.

Rod, I was hoping you would chime in. I'm a metric fan myself but can't convince my American colleagues of its virtues. I know you have mentioned FS Tooling in the past because of it being local to you but, unfortunately, I don't make it back home to southern Ontario enough to visit them. Do you know of any online dealers or someone who sells their tooling south of the border? Also, do you use the insert tooling that is specifically made for cabinet door fabrication (cope and stick) or do you use a cutterhead that will accept all manner of insert tooling (rabbeting, grooving, edge profiles, etc.)?



Ryan, the idea of putting a 1 1/4" shaper cutter on a 30 mm spindle scares me beyond description. I have heard enough horror stories about shapers and have enough respect for them that I do not wish to tempt fate.

[Gary Curtis]

In the U.S., I have one word for you. CMT -- their European catalogue. All items warehoused here in Indiana or Ohio (??). Metric items by special order from authorized dealers.

[David Kumm]

Greg Godbout at Rangate sells euro insert tooling as well. High end stuff. I know the Felder guys have favorites other than Garninga also. Check on FOG. I would buy a 1.25 spindle anyway as the combo machines are generally sold to hobby guys and if you resell you will want to have one as they are likely to factor it into the price anyway. After about 10 years it is hard to find them even at Felders high parts prices. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Charles, the issue won't be whether you'll be able to obtain 30mm tooling in the future, it may be whether you can obtain 1 1/4" tooling.

Remember that North America is a small market compared to the world market, and that the imperial system isn't common at all.

Go ahead and buy as much 30mm tooling as you want, the 30 and 40mm sizes are the way of the future..............Rod.

When I was a child the government was running public service adds getting us ready for the big switch to the metric system that was coming to the USA. I can still remember the jingles "A liter, chorus 'LITER', its a little more than a quart, a meter, 'chorus 'METER' its a little more than a yard'......And we learned the basics of the metric system in grade school, and we used the metric system almost exclusively in chemistry, physics, biology, in any science classes in college. And most of our groceries are actually sold to us in metric form, as is the liquor. And....

Over 40 years later most things in our daily lives here in the USA are still SAE. We aren't going to have those pseudo intellectual quasi sophisticated arrogant Euro snobs forcing their virtually random system of weights and measure on us over our completely random but beloved English system, which we inherited from a country against which we revolted several hundred years ago! Ohhh no. Maybe the US market isn't what it used to be, but we still have money, and unlike like Europe we still have wood actually worth working, so if you want to sell cutter heads here you had better keep making 1 1/4" bore, because some traditions are important. Why do you suppose every major tooling maker sells their cutters in 1 1/4" bore, and why does every tooling manufacturer make 1 1/4" spindles for their machines? I have to stop now as my tongue has poked through my cheek...

Seriously, I predict most of us here at the creek will be dead before they get rid of 1 1/4" bore as a standard in the USA. Just too many machines in use presently to dump it over night. It sure would be nice if they started really phasing out the SAE stuff so my grandchildren could be unburdened by the dreary fractional system, but don't hold your breath on that one. This is a nation that clings stubbornly to its traditions and habits.

[Stephen Cherry]

Felder usually has a tooling sale during the Christmas season. It's 30mm. Also, I would pick up a 1.25 inch spindle.

[Rod Sheridan]

Charles, look up FS Tools on the web, they have US distributors.

I mostly use the insert knives, 40mm Euro block cutters.

Look at the Felder site, they have great Chridtmas sales on now, especially the 30mm stuff.

Garniga is another supplier, carried by many distributors.

We really are at the end of the rope on the Imperial system, there's far more tooling in the metric sizes.............Rod.

[Charles Brown]

Gary, I used an aluminum CMT insert cutterhead five or so years ago and wasn't too impressed with the quality. Am I just being unrealistic? I haven't used the super high end stuff but still feel like there should be some feeling of quality like I get when using products from Schmidt or Freeborn.

David, I was trying to steer away the top of the line cutters (Garninga, etc.) but will look into it. I thought Freeborn cutters would be at the top of my price list but will look at the big boy / industrial cutters for fun.

Peter, (just to throw a little gasoline on your fire) outside of the USA the rest of the world spells it litre. :)

And I will look into the 1.25" spindle. Keep the suggestions rolling.

[David Kumm]

Charles, I'm mainly a freeborn guy myself as you can interchange the cutters. I have bought most used as they often come from hobbyists. My only complaint is that I wish they worked off a little larger diameter than 4". If you use an aigner fence it barely clears the fat spindle rings Felder uses. Dave

[J.R. Rutter]

I agree with just changing to 1 1/4 spindle but Amana does make 30 to 1 1/4 and 3/4 "t" bushings.

Don

Ordered. Thanks, now I can use a couple more spindles that are laying around!

[Ryan Mooney]

Ryan, the idea of putting a 1 1/4" shaper cutter on a 30 mm spindle scares me beyond description. I have heard enough horror stories about shapers and have enough respect for them that I do not wish to tempt fate.

Heh, I can't argue with that sentiment, honestly the shaper scares me more than any other tool I currently have. As noted I've been super careful with cranking everything down carefully.. but.. yeah.

[Joe Calhoon]

Ordered. Thanks, now I can use a couple more spindles that are laying around!JR, I use Amana 1 1/4 to 30 reduction bushes on a couple cutters and they work great. Nothing wrong with using these as long as the tolarances are right.

No different than tools on a sleeve.

Joe

[J.R. Rutter]

Also, do you use the insert tooling that is specifically made for cabinet door fabrication (cope and stick) or do you use a cutterhead that will accept all manner of insert tooling (rabbeting, grooving, edge profiles, etc.)?

Ryan, the idea of putting a 1 1/4" shaper cutter on a 30 mm spindle scares me beyond description. I have heard enough horror stories about shapers and have enough respect for them that I do not wish to tempt fate.

Not Rod, but I use a system with universal heads and profiled steel backers for the carbide inserts for cope and stick. I had the heads made for me, but I think that Great Lakes Tooling may have something similar. Unique Machine sells them as well, IIRC. Trying to center 1-1/4" cutters on a 30mm spindle WITHOUT bushings is super scary stupid, but people run these cutters on smaller spindles all the time with bushings with no problem.


JR, I use Amana 1 1/4 to 30 reduction bushes on a couple cutters and they work great. Nothing wrong with using these as long as the tolarances are right.

No different than tools on a sleeve.


Thanks Joe. Glad to know that they are quality. I got 2 extra 30mm spindles as part of a new old stock package and they have been gathering dust. The bushings will let me mount up some seldom used cutters and program them into the shaper rather than disassembling spindles to use them.

[Jeff Duncan]

I think you need to sit down and think about the quantity of work you'll be doing before deciding what tooling to buy. If your building 1 kitchen a year, then spending $1500+ on a top notch insert setup may not be a wise investment. Not to say you can't do it if you have the extra cash lying around;) But you can very easily spend thousands of dollars on shaper tooling and still not have a whole lot of cutters. Now if your doing a kitchen a month then things start to change. Of course if your doing that kind of volume your going to be more limited by the combo machine than the cutters:eek:

For my shop I use Freeborn sets for cabinet doors and have been very happy with them. I only have 3 or 4 profiles but I don't do a ton of kitchens, so I have yet to send one out for sharpening. My corrugated heads get the most use as I tend to do a lot more one-off stuff. I also have 2 older style insert heads. The ones that use HSS knives and 2 pins to locate them in the head. These were sold by Freud, FS Tool, and a few others. Not sure if anyone is still making them, but I find them very handy. With extra knife stock you can fairly quickly grind up your own profile in a pinch.

My honest opinion is that the shaper has much more to do with the quality of product than the knives. I've used cutters from Freeborn, Amana, Magnate, Freud, FS Tool, and even some real cheap junk corrugated knives from Grizzly. At the end of the day they all cut like they were supposed to, and I couldn't look at a piece of stock and tell you how good the cutter was. I can however look at stuff run on my last shaper, and stuff run on my current shaper and tell the difference! What the higher end, better quality tooling gets you is longevity, which is great for production. It comes down to what your going to be doing and how much of it. At least that's the way I look at it.

Oh and I agree that whichever route you choose, 30mm or 1-1/4", your not likely to ever run out of tooling options.

hope this helps, good luck!
JeffD

[Norb Schmidt]

Charles, any chance this is a steath gloat as well? Congrats on the new machine - I'm slumming it with the MM version myself.

Spindles are expensive. Last time I looked they were around $700. So, without any improvement in function over the 30mm, I'd just by 30mm tooling and call it a day. Most of the major manufacturers make 30mm tooling, leitz is reported to be the house Felder brand, and it's great stuff. Like others said, Felder usually has a shaper cutter sale starting about now, so that's a good option. CGGSchmidt (no relation, bummer) carries a full line of tooling as well. While you can't readily find "cheap" cutters in 30mm here in the states, it doesn't sound like you're looking for that anyway. And, to the extent you have used 1 1/4" tooling you want to use, I'd just go with the bushings. Remember the bushings only take up space, they aren't there for any structural strength - that is supplied by the tooling and the spindle itself. The bushing has nowhere to go (if properly installed) as it is captured on all sides.

Lastly, It's nice to have another euro-slider combo guy in the metro area!

[Stephen Cherry]

One thing to consider is that some cutters in 30mm may be able to be used on both the saw and shaper. For example, a saw dado, if the machine is set up for dado, may be usable on the shaper spindle for slotting or tenoning. Felder sells a very nice looking adjustable slotter, and forrest sells dado sets set up for felder machines.

[Charles Brown]

@Jeff - I agree with most of what you say about the build quality of the shaper cutters. However, I have found that the bigger the cutter (larger diameter) the better the cut. That is especially true when it comes to shaping stiles and raising panels. That's where I notice the difference. But that's just my experience. I'm a buy once / cry once kind of guy. I have a fairly good idea about the size / amount of work that goes through my personal shop and don't feel bad spending a reasonable amount of money on cutters. I'm not looking for a complete set of cutters just enough versatility to get me through the end of the day. I'm also not looking for top of the line cutters that cost more than what I paid for the machine. That's why I thought the insert heads would be a wise choice in terms of diversity.

@Norb - I haven't taken possession of the machine yet, so I wouldn't call it a gloat at all. Arrangements have been made, though, and I am looking forward to getting it in the door.

My personal shop is in Grant Park if you're ever in the area and want to stop by.

[Jeff Duncan]

[QUOTE=Charles Brown;1810089]@ However, I have found that the bigger the cutter (larger diameter) the better the cut.

Agree with you there. You don't say what, if any, shaper your upgrading from. But if it's a smaller shaper I think you'll be surprised at the improvement when you get your bigger machine. For me the transition from a Powermatic 27 to the Martin, (both using the same cutters), was incredible. Machine marks were virtually eliminated making finish sanding so much easier.

good luck,
JeffD