Usefulness of Bullnose Rabbet Planes

[Chris Griggs]

So I got some extra cash for my birthday and am thinking about picking up a small plane or two to deal with little cleanup tasks... Final cleaning/fitting of rabbets/tongues, interior chamfers, and other little interior/hard to reach cleanups. The kinds of things I usually do with card scrapers and chisels.

I was originally planning on picking up the 3/8 LV detail rabbet plane since I'm looking for something for pretty small tasks on relatively small projects, but then I started thinking that maybe I should just pick up the full size LV bullnose rabbet instead. After all, I don't need it o fit in grooves or dados, that's what my router plane is for - it just needs to get into corners and interiors, and even the full size bullnose is pretty small (4 3/4" long)

Tom Fidgin reviewed the detail rabbets and loves them... ALF reviewed the bullnose rabbet and while the review was positive she didn't seem like a huge fan in terms of its overall usefulness. However, that was really in reference to using it as a true shoulder plane, which really isn't my intended use. Those are really the only reviews I've read of either. Additionally, the full size bullnose (and bullnose planes in general) is a plane I feel like I don't hear much about and I'm wondering if it just isn't every ones cup of tea, but once again my guess is that most people who want rabbet planes are looking for something for trimming machine cut tenon cheeks and shoulders (e.g. they want a med or large shoulder plane)... again, not my main intended use.

Can anyone comment on the usefulness of either of these two planes (detail rabbet or bullnose rabbet) for the types of tasks I described in the first paragraph. Do you find bullnose planes useful in general, or is there just too little registration for the plane to be useful on many tasks. Once again, my intended use would be more of a small trimming plane, almost like a small rabbet-block-apron plane. Any comments on the detail rabbets, the bullnose rabbet, or bullnose planes in general (e.g. Stanley 90), and what you use them for, would be much appreciated.

[James Taglienti]

I have a british one... Its pretty useful working into corners etc but doesnt do much that a shoulder plane or router plane cant do... One thing i especially like mine for is leveling mitered corners that have a wide, flat sunken field like door casings and some picture frames. I use it like a smoother there and it does have a smoothers radius to the cutter. Using it to tweak rabbets is handy but usually i use a chisel to relief cut the corner i will be working into, so the nose hangs in space at the end of the cut. Its much more accurate that way

[Bill Houghton]

The lack of registration at the front makes for a tool with limited usefulness, in particular not useful in long runs. I do own one (two, actually), and find it useful, but it wouldn't be my first buy. I don't have any experienced with the detail planes you ask about.

[Chris Griggs]

That was kinda what I was thinking - pretty useful for certain particulars, but in the long run possible limited in usefulness depending on how you want to use is. Jury is still out for me on this buy, since I'd be using it for some tasks that would be better suited for a shoulder plane (which don't have since I've never felt a major need for one), but I'd also be using it for a lot of tasks where I specifically want the small footprint a shorter toe. Maybe I'll just stick with the little detail rabbet, might be more suited for the tweeking type work I want to do, and also if I don't find it as useful as I am hoping, its less money spent.

More opinions anyone?

[David Weaver]

Someone gave me a slater infill bullnose a while ago, without an iron. I made an iron for it, cleaned it up, and haven't used it since. I suppose you could get into certain sunken stopped work where it would be useful, but I have not.

If I were buying, it would be a tool that I bought when I got to a project where I needed to have it. Otherwise, it's just another plane to leave on the shelf for a while and find with rust on it somewhere - especially if it's a new plane without patina.

[Zach England]

I have a Stanley 90 that I have used to clean up stopped rabbets. I have another bullnose plane that I have never used and am planning on using the blade to make a wooden shoulder plane.

[Prashun Patel]

I have this plane (actually bought it used on CL from someone claiming it was a shoulder plane).

I agree in general about bullnose planes being suboptimal in most cases (I have a Stanley that I never got working right). However, this plane works very well as a rabbet plane and as a shoulder plane. It won't level a long dado, but it will remove any machining ridges. Also, for dados on shorter things like chair legs, the size is actually more controllable (in my hands) than my other Hock shoulder plane.

This is the kind of plane you should really try first, since it seems like it'd fit only specific users, like me well (read, people with smaller hands who want a joint-tweaking tool.) That being said, check with Lee Valley about their return policy; I believe they can be generous about taking back things that don't fit users as well as they hoped.

Again, don't confuse this plane with 'bullnose planes in general'.

[Chris Griggs]

YES Prashaun - "tweeking tool" is what I'm looking for (actaully, after reading Dereks review of the little victor I've come pretty close to getting it for that reason) I don't have smaller hands - actually I have fairly large hands - no issues palming/using the somewhat large LV LABP inone hand, but a small footprint is what I'm looking for. Yes, I will probably use it shoulder plane type tasks as well, but it's really for all types of tweeking and cleanup. Chamfers in funny places, smoothing/flushing/cleanups in areas that a longer plane would ride over. Prashaun can you please elaborate on the tasks you specifically use yours for?

David, here are some pics of the specific project that has made me really want a little tweeking plane so badly, it's nearing the end and needs to be done before Xmas so I'll probably make a decision pretty quickly here. (for more details see this thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?172956-A-challenging-project-for-me-%E2%80%93-but-coming-along-quite-nicely&highlight=) I posted about the project a month or so ago)
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Sorry, this wasn't meant to be a "look what I made" thread, but I think pics will help me explain my intended uses. LV LABP is included for scale and as you can see its bigger than the smallest drawers. As Lots of little drawers and drawer openings. Most the openings are so small the (2.5" high) that any breaking of interior corners really has to be done with a chisel or sandpaper. I actually already went in and did that with a chisel, but I have a couple areas where I need to cleanup the faces of the dividers. This isn't about flat, it's about clean and even my block won't reach some of the those areas if I don't first also plane the other dividers which it's bridging over. Also, there are areas were the dividers meet the sides and where the the vertical dividers meet the horizontal that I really need something small and preferably something rabbetish to get into the isolated area/joints I want to clean. Then, there is thechamfering/edge breaking of all the drawer interiors which, once again can be done with chisels and sandpaper, but I am very often finding myself thinking would be done quicker and more evenly with some kind of little tweeking plane. And finally, there are the rabbet specific takes - basically cleaning up after my skew rabbet. For example the back panel is rabbeted and in the final fitting I will probably need to be doing a little fitting cleaning around the rabbet. This is the one place where a small shoulder plane might be better, but for most of what I want to do even a small shoulder plane is too big. This is one of the reasons I was so excited to try John C's detail palm planes, actaully the little flat one would have worked for a lot of the little tweeking I'm suggesting, but ulimatly it was a bit too small and really a lot of the cleanup I need to do warrents something with open side. So then I though detail rabbet plane was the key, which then got me thinking about the bigger bullnose. Yes I can do most/all of this with chisels, scrapers, sandpaper, but keep thinking there has got to be a quicker easier way more consistant way.

Anyway, once agian, Prashaun nailed it. Tweeking plane is what I need... I even like saying/writing the word "TWEEKING!!!:D".... Recommendations for tools better suited for tweeking are welcome.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have one and I prefer to use a sharp chisel for those instances when I think of using the bullnose plane.

[Chris Griggs]

I have one and I prefer to use a sharp chisel for those instances when I think of using the bullnose plane.

Yep, that's kind of what I worry I would end up doing to. Good input Tony, thanks. Prashaun's probably correct, might be the kind of tool that would be best to wait until I have a chance to try before I buy.

[Mark Wyatt]

Chris,

The first time I used a bullnose plane was on a project similair to yours. My Father-in-Law was finishing us a dresser and needed a tool to reach inside the case to fit the drawer runners and dust frames. This included some stopped rabbets. We found that it was often difficult to reach the place that needed planing in a way which would allow us room to move the plane and get a good grip on the plane body. Many bruised knuckles. We ended up using chisels, rasps and files instead. A short chisel with a cranked neck turned out to be the most useful tool.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks for the input Mark. Very useful info. Always great to get info on how tools work for specific tasks and projects. Glad I asked before ordering. Given me much to think about.

[Jim Koepke]

I have a Stanley #90 bull nose plane and find it useful when it can be set down on the surface as opposed to trying to register with the bull nose toe.

It gets less use than my Stanley #93.

Mostly it is used to clean up details of rabbets. Sometimes it is used like a block plane for breaking corners.

Sometimes though it is the best tool for the job.

Most of the time I have been tweaking tenons and shoulders with a chisel.

I do not own nor have I used the detail planes.

jtk

[Jim Neeley]

While I'm still fairly new to neanderworking, I have the LV Bullnose, Lg Shoulder, minature shoulder, LABP and LN 140 in my stable of planes. Of the group, I have to date found the Bullnose the least usefull *for me*.

For chisel plane type use in tight quarters it because I have been so far unable to master using it without any front registration as it likes to dig into my work. I do not challenge that this is an "operator error" issue. With the front end on it it still does not provide me sufficient front registration for straight, even cuts. Ironically it does not have a whole lot less registration than the LV miniature shoulder plane. The LV miniature, while perhaps seen by many as a trinket, with it's A2 steel blade scary-sharpened through 2500 grit sandpaper, makes shallow cuts like a champ. I purchased my first one as a desk ornament for work (sharpened and resting on a scrap of padauk, ready for visitor testing), I was pleased to see it actually usable and usefull and picked up a second one for my shop. I own the 140 but the miniature's light weight, blade reaching to the edge of the plane and short length (2-1/2" long) has made it handy for chamfering right into a corner.

Last night I received John C's detail palm planes in the mail and hope by the weekend to have given them a test for this kind of use.

My observations; YMMV.

Jim

[Chris Griggs]

While I'm still fairly new to neanderworking, I have the LV Bullnose, Lg Shoulder, minature shoulder, LABP and LN 140 in my stable of planes. Of the group, I have to date found the Bullnose the least usefull *for me*.


Hmmm, that's seems to be the more common response. "Nice tool, but not that useful." That's unfortunate, in many ways it comes across like such a potentially handy tool. I really thought it could prove nice as sorta rabbeting-apron plane. Maybe that's why there are so many old infills of this type out there in good shape ( I count 3 on The Best Things), all the old timers bought nice ones thinking they would be super handy and then never used them. When google searching I do see some random threads on other forums with a few folks who really seem to like a bullnose, but most of what I see is along the lines of "meh, great at no things, pretty good at a couple things, and highly mediocre at a whole bunch of things." It's obviously not a good fit for a number of folks, and thus I am starting doubt it's a good fit for me. Guess it's time to go back to my project, and reevaluate my needs, and then decide what (if anything) to get.

Also, Jim looking forward to hearing your (and others) opinions of the detail planes. It's really fun to see what different people who do different types of work think of them. What do you foresee you would use them for?

[Tony Zaffuto]

One other thing, with a plane like the Stanley 90, you are better off buying a vintage, American made 90. The UK made 90's are more like a "kit" plane. My wife bought me a new UK 90 about a decade ago--and luckily I employ some machinists and a toolmaker. The nose was not co-planar to the main sole and both needed machined. The blade bedding was not parallel (not sure if correct term) to sole. The sides were not square to the sole.

All in all, it took quite a bit of time for a machinist to correct the issues and now I have a plane that will work, should I decide to use it, but it is still simpler to use a chisel. Finally, from what I hear, the American made series of planes, 90, 92, 93 & 94 do not have the problems that the UK made ones do, probably due to a cheapened Stanley induced manufacturing process and nothing against our British friends.

[Chris Griggs]

So I got to thinking that a really small shoulder plane might do the trick for a lot of the cleanup I want to do. I recalled seeing that craftsman studio carried a small HNT Gordon one - in fact, its the smallest non bullnose out there at 5 1/4" long (excluding LV mini) and at under $150 it was relatively inexpensive. An inch smaller then the small LV shoulder and much less expensive then the little LN infill. Perfect I thought! Short enough to get into some of the small areas I want to hit, but still has a toe for decent registration. (Yes, I know its a steep angle... doesn't matter to me)

Checked the the craftsman studio site.... Arrrg!!! Not available. Called the store.... Double Arg!!!

They may not be getting any more because with the USD dollar being as it is the prices would go up about 50% and they wouldn't be able to sell them. What they have left (all the sizes except the one I want) is old stock and once its gone they may not get more. STUPID DOLLAR!!!! I can't find the 1/2" from any US retailer anymore. Also, with the USD to AUD conversion rates being what they currently are ordering directly from HNT would cost as much as if I just ordered the LN infill - not saying it wouldn't be worth it in either case, just more then I want to spend on a nice to have, but non necessity tweeking plane at the moment.

Oh well, chisels it will continue to be I guess..

That is unless anyone knows where I can get one (the 5 1/4" long 1/2" wide HNT) at the "old stock" (for lack of a better description) price.

(Then again, the little LN infill, isn't THAT much more....)

[Zach England]

Isn't there a Clifton plane that converts from a shoulder plane to a bullnose plane to a chisel plane? It's like a transformer.

[Chris Griggs]

Isn't there a Clifton plane that converts from a shoulder plane to a bullnose plane to a chisel plane? It's like a transformer.

Yeah, but I believe its a large size shoulder plane, bigger than I want, and I think it's like close to $300.

(Just checked... $289.95 at TFWW)

[Ryan Baker]

I have a Stanley 90 and I never use it. Like the others have said, I find that the lack of registration makes it just frustrating (for me). In the situations where a chisel plane is needed, it could be useful -- but I normally would just grab a chisel for that type of work. YMMV. I think that any kind of bullnose or chisel plane is something you really should try before you buy to see if it's right for you.

In reading your description, I really am hearing two different needs. I am hearing a lot of work that would best be served by a small shoulder plane. I am also hearing some work that calls for a chisel plane, or a good chisel. Something like the miniature shoulder plane, at around thirty bucks, would almost seem like a no-brainer for you. An inexpensive chisel plane (in addition) might work well for you too.

You mentioned the flat-bottom mini palm plane -- that you liked it but it was a little too small. There are a number of other similar planes on the market (Ibex and other) in a variety of sizes larger than the LV palm that might suit your preference. Combined with a mini shoulder plane, that might fit your needs. Another option would be to just make some mini woodies. That would let you quickly and inexpensively experiment until you find what works for you, and make it exactly the size you want.

[Chris Griggs]

In reading your description, I really am hearing two different needs. I am hearing a lot of work that would best be served by a small shoulder plane. I am also hearing some work that calls for a chisel plane, or a good chisel. Something like the miniature shoulder plane, at around thirty bucks, would almost seem like a no-brainer for you. An inexpensive chisel plane (in addition) might work well for you too.


Yep that's what I concluded when I got home tonight and started going through the needs of my current project. I went and did some tiny chamfers on the interior of the drawer with a chisel and really now that I'm back to it, I don't see how a bullnose would be better. I had previously gouged a couple corners with a chisel when I did the interior chamfers on the divider/around the drawer openings - I was able plane out the gouge (mostly), but it was pretty frustrating, so I got it in my head that I needed some kind of bullnose plane. Going back now with a chisel, I'm kinda realizing that for those tasks they really are the best option (I just need to be more careful in the future)

So that brings us to the other types of tasks - those that are best served with a shoulder plane. Really since that aspect of the work work doesn't need a plane that can fit into a small opening any size shoulder plane would probably do. Never thought of the mini - I always just kind of thought of it as a working novelty but a few folks now have said it might be useful, so yeah, perhaps I'll grab one of those too. For the shoulder plane, if I get one, I'll probably either go with the smallest I can find or a big 1 to 1 1/4" one. I can see distinct advantages to having the smallest in some situations and the large in other situations - the mediums don't appeal to me all that much, so it just a matter of me deciding which, a small or large would be better suited for the work I want to do. There's tons of info out there on shoulder planes so I'll probably just do some reading, and contemplate for a while.

Anyway folks, thanks for the input, glad I didn't just up and buy the bullnose. Feedback and advice really helped me think through my needs.

[Sam Babbage]

I'm in the "it's a great tool for tweaking" camp. Particularly for case furniture after assembly. Drawer stop a little forward? Bullnose. Drawer guide binding slightly? Bullnose. Etc, etc. The combination of small size yet significant mass/cutting-width compared to standard rebates and the mini rebates respectively, makes it great for working inside carcases one-handed.

[Chris Griggs]

I'm in the "it's a great tool for tweaking" camp. Particularly for case furniture after assembly. Drawer stop a little forward? Bullnose. Drawer guide binding slightly? Bullnose. Etc, etc. The combination of small size yet significant mass/cutting-width compared to standard rebates and the mini rebates respectively, makes it great for working inside carcases one-handed.

Oh great, thanks a lot Sam! I thought I had made up my mind against it, but you had to be the voice of dissent and make me reconsider it ;). In all seriousness, its interesting to here the alternative point of view. Still though, seems like its a plane that one should try before they by - seems like a love it or don't care for it kind of plane.

[Chris Griggs]

Just did a search to get some more info on the little LN Bronze infill. FTJ has it for $160 SHIPPED - it retails at $199. Did I buy it? OF COURSE!!!! SWEET!!!

Get'em while their hot!!!!

I AM SOOOOOOO EXCITED I just keep thinking of the old song by The Cars "I guess your just what needed..."

And if its not just what I needed (doubtful) - I don't think I'll have too hard a time of selling it for exactly what I paid.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Excellent! Of course, everyone really wanted you to buy another bling tool anyway. We're a co-dependant group of tool collectors with a woodworking habit anyway.

[Trevor Walsh]

Maybe a bit late, but I love the detail rabbet plane (I have the 1/4) I want to get the other two after I get some things I really need (like a skew rabbet)

[Floyd Mah]

I have a Stanley #75. It's literally a light-weight bullnose plane, but when sharpened well, will do a lot of work in a cramped space. You can get them on ebay for next to nothing. There is a plane (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=50232&cat=1,41182) (b) on the Lee Valley site that will reach the recesses that you have for $19.50. There's no need to buy a plane for much $$$ when you have a limited use and that others admit will be gathering a lot of dust waiting for its' next use. I have a chisel plane, same size as the smaller LN, which I made a few years ago, that is nice to have, but it doesn't find much use.

[Bill Houghton]

I have a Stanley #75. It's literally a light-weight bullnose plane, but when sharpened well, will do a lot of work in a cramped space.

Perhaps the most awkward part of the Stanley No. 75 is gripping it. Because it's a bevel-down plane, the iron sticks up more than with most bullnose planes, which are generally bevel-up (like a block plane). I found adding a palm rest, made by quick cutting and shaping of a chunk of hardwood, which was then held on with one screw through the back of the top casting, helped immensely:

213126

That said, if you find you need a bullnose plane often enough (which you probably won't), a bevel-up plane does seem to be superior.

[Chris Griggs]

Actually I have a 75. I love its size, and would love to see a souped up remake of it. The problem with it is, the mouth is huge. Even if you can do a good job registering the little toe on edge, the corner of wood will literally come up through the mouth. I know the mouth is adjustable, but for some reason I had issues trying to make it tighter - can't recall why.

The other issue with it for me is this as best described by Mr. Leach:....

"The section of the sole ahead of the iron is not co-planar with the sole behind the iron. The plane is purposely made this way to assist it with its cut (you guys what owns the 'lectrical jointahs should know why the plane's sole is the way it is) so there's no need to practice sole lapping on it." This causes issues for me.

I actually think I probably would have and could have used the LV bullnose just fine with a tight mouth, but for the time being the little shoulder plane seemed like it was more sure meet some/most of my immediate needs. Where the LV bullnose seemed like it might meet more of my needs, but wouldn't the ideal tool for most of them - possibly just a bit too much of a jack of all trades master of non kind of tool - those kinds of tools can be super handy, which is its appeal, or they can be super disappointing - I would probably try before I buy for that one. Plus I just counld't pass up the current price I found on that little infill.

Trevor, never too late to give your input. I still can see myself getting one of those details rabbets some day. Glad to hear you like yours. What do you find yourself using it for?

Maurice, too funny, yeah it is a bit of a bling tool. I'm actually not usually huge fan of the bling tools - I love me ergonomic, modern look of LVs stuff. Sometimes I love the look of LN Bronze planes, but sometimes I think it just looks either a) too pretty or b) kind of pukey.

Admittedly, the bronze wood combo does look pretty cool, and it's a plane I've eyeballed many times, but if LV made their small shoulder as small as this one I probably would have bought it (sorry Rob, TLN beat you out this time, but don't worry, I'll be ordering some hardware and few other trinkets from you this week).

I have a few LV planes and a couple LN saws, but this will be my first LN plane. Ultimately, I decided if I was going to get a small shoulder plane I would get the smallest (not counting the LV mini) I could find.

[Chris Griggs]

That said, if you find you need a bullnose plane often enough (which you probably won't), a bevel-up plane does seem to be superior.

OMG (Yes I just used teenage girl text abbreviation)!!!! I just realized that probably the reason I'm having issues with the 75s mouth is that I probably have the blade facing bevel up. Too funny. I'll need to pull it out tonight and see if this is the case (probably is), correct it and try putting it back to work.

[Trevor Walsh]

Chris, I use it for trimming small rebates and shoulders, also for adjusting groove depth, chamfering I'll probably use it to trim drawer stops when I build a project with drawers. A larger shoulder plane is nice, but sometimes you need the shorter length. When I got it I was running a lot of 1/4" grooves, hence that size, I think the 3/8" would be best unless you needed to get into a 1/4" or 5/16" groove.

[Bob Smalser]

Don't buy a #90. Too short to be user friendly. Buy a #92 or #93 instead. The chisel plane feature is what you want, not the bullnose plane feature. I use it regularly. The one below is a #93:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6791366/85653808.jpg