Which is better a 20" planer with spiral heads or 20" with flat AND a 26" drum sander

[Bob Feeser]

So here is the deal. I just ordered a 20" Shop Fox planer and I ordered it with the flat knives which is $1,000 cheaper than the spiral knives model. I have the option of upgrading the knives since this model is EXACTLY like the spiral model except the knives. BUT I was thinking wouldn't it be better to pick up a 26" drum sander for $2,000 instead of spending that extra $1,000 on the spiral knives?

Some considerations;
1) The Fox 1754 20" planer has published noise levels at 82 db. I saw the demo on You Tube of the spiral blades and it brought another mfr noise level from 93db down to 88db. The reviewer on Amazon for the Fox 20" planer said it was quieter than his old 13" planer.
2) Although there is a LOT less tear out with the spiral the forum here has taught me that there is some tearout unless you take very small bites. With the sander there is NO tearout at all.
3) With a sander you have a sander. :)
4) On the Shop Fox 20" sander 5hp you can place two different belts on it, one medium let's say for the first one, and one fine for the second one, and only need to make one pass.
5) Shelling out the extra grand over the spiral knife price to get the sander.
6) According to the review on Amazon on the sander you still need to go over the piece with a random orbit sander even after using the sander. He also said the same holds true with the oscillating drum sanders as well, you need to random orbit afterwards.

Finally how cool is it to have both of those superb pieces of equipment on your shop floor.
Even with all of this I certainly do realize that the ultimate is to have the spiral head planer, and a wide belt sander instead of the drum because it not only sands belt style it also oscillates. (Those are tons of money way more than what we are talking about here)
So do any of you have any experience with the wide drum sanders. What kind of finish does it leave, or problems does it create? And what do you think about the trade off between the two options, flat blade or spiral vs flat blade and sander?
See photo below of the two pieces of equipment I am referring to in the Fox lineup.
Agree? Disagree? Don't give a damn? :eek: :)

[Don Wacker]

My vote is for the double drum sander if its within your budget. Keep in mind we used straight knives for many many years without problems. If I was going to step up it would be for a shelix over a spiral any day. I dont thing spirals are all really worth the extra money. They need to start using tersa's.

Don

[Bob Feeser]

My vote is for the double drum sander if its within your budget. Keep in mind we used straight knives for many many years without problems. If I was going to step up it would be for a shelix over a spiral any day. I dont thing spirals are all really worth the extra money. They need to start using tersa's.

Don

Don,
Thanks for your reply. What is the difference between spiral and shelix? I am new to the planer head options. And what are Tersa's?

[Don Wacker]

Shelix are the little tiny multi face cutters, just un screw and turn cuts real clean but are expensive. Tersa's are used in most euro machines and are slip fit. Slide in a cutter fire up the machine and it seats itself. The nice thing with tersa's is you can get a different grind angle for different woods and only takes a minute to change cutters.

Don

[Jerome Stanek]

It looks like the sander is $5600.00 thats a little more than the $1000 that you save.

[Don Wacker]

It looks like the sander is $5600.00 thats a little more than the $1000 that you save.

I think your a little off on the price. The shop fox should be 26" and for that price you can nearly get three of them.

[glenn bradley]

I would find it very difficult to go back to a knifed machine. Do you really plane material wider than 15" often enough to require a 20" machine? It is quite possible you do. I just use the "most of the time, or just now and then" decision mechanism to keep myself from getting over-focused and putting all my tool dollars in one place. On the other hand I held of buying an oscillating edge sander until the price got to a point where I may never buy one. Cry once and all that.

[Don Wacker]

I would find it very difficult to go back to a knifed machine. Do you really plane material wider than 15" often enough to require a 20" machine?

IMO he made a good decision. The pressure bar in the 20" makes enough difference even if you never use the full width.

[Richard Wolf]

I have the same set, except I have the grizzly 20" planer. I know the spiral heads are better, but I think you need the different equipment in you shop first.
I am always amazed how many people spend an extra $1,000 on a cutter head instead of get more machines. The sander work great, but you do need a good dust collector.

[Clint Olver]

I have a 20" straight knife planer (steel city) and a 24" drum sander (General International). I wouldn't trade my sander for a spiral head, so I guess that answers the question. A spiral head would be nice, to eliminate tear-out. But, you can take light passes on the planer to minimize tear-out, then drum sand down from there. You can't sand with a spiral head. Either way, sounds like your shop is about to step up a notch!

C

[Chris Tsutsui]

I would take the drum sander option because it adds more versatility than adding a spiral head.

[Bob Feeser]

It looks like the sander is $5600.00 thats a little more than the $1000 that you save.

Shop Fox 20" 5hp Planer straight blades: http://www.amazon.com/W1754-20-Inch-Planer-Built--Mobile/dp/B001R23TDK/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1321404178&sr=8-3 ($1853 It's only $650 more than the 15.)
Shop Fox 26" 5hp Drum Sander http://www.amazon.com/SHOP-W1678-26-Inch-Drum-Sander/dp/B001R23SRC/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1321404247&sr=1-1 ($2020)

[Bob Feeser]

Glenn I'm with you in my initial decision. I bought a 15 and it arrived defective and the more I thought about it, having the flexibility of the 20 seemed like a good way to go for only another $650. I started thinking for example that I could run my rough stock through the left side and get it down to the final pass, and then make the final pass on the right side thereby keeping the right side blade pristine for a long period of time. Also as someone else suggested you find times when you wish you had a larger planer to run glued up pieces through instead of just roughing it with a hand held sander, although I like the feel of that as well giving for example a raised panel more of a hand made look instead of some machine making it. Oh yeah that's right we are talking about a machine making it. :-)

[Matt Mackinnon]

I don't know how you conclude that a 20" sander is going to add that much more versatility? Just like there are those who say that light cuts eliminates tare out.

I recently had an order for multiple cutting boards for a customer. I used some nice maple and you would think it wouldn't have any problems. I had an older cast iron 15" planer, and you had a choice. If you make a light enough cut to eliminate the tare out, but it wouldn't remove the indentations from the infeed roller, or live the with tare out.

I ended up removing the tare out on my 12" jointer that has a byrd head. No issues no matter how deep the cut.

To address the comment/question. A byrd head is a spiral helix cutter pattern, but the blades are oriented inline with the helix around the cutter head. This is in comparison to a standard spiral head, that has multiple cutters arranged in a spiral around the cutter head, but the cutting surface of each of the cutters is parallel to the cutter head.

Does it make a difference between the two. Not really. I have yet to see any time where one cutter worked better than the other. And yes I have both.

[Cary Falk]

I have a 15" grizzly with a spiral head adn a 18/36 drum sander. I love them both. If I had to do without one it would have to be the drum sander. I bought the spiral head for 2 reasons: noise and I hate, hate, hate , hate setting knives. Did I mention how much I hate setting knives? I hated doing it on my 6" jointer and would rather remove my eyeball with a spoon then do it on a 15" let alone a 20" planer. I loved the quick set knives in my lunchbox planer. Both planers and the sander need a ROS. The sander shines for very thin material. It was a blessing when I made an acoustic guitar. I occasionally sand a panel larger than 15". I intially looked at a 20" planer with straight knives because it was that same price as the 15" with the spiral. It wasn't worth it to me. My sander was only $450 on CL. So I guess my point is that I made sacrifices(smaller tools) to be able to have both.

[Paul McGaha]

Just my $.02 but I would do the Byrd Head on the planer.

That's what I have on mine and I like it a lot in regard to the quality of the cut, how quiet the planer is, and not having to fool with changing knives.

Expect to upgrade my jointer to a byrd head in the near future.

To me, While the drum sander would be great to have, but it's a separate tool and topic from the planer.

PHM

[Jeff Duncan]

I'd go with the drum sander. A sander is an incredibly useful tool and once you have one you won't know how you lived without it. On the other hand I lived without a spiral head for many years, then I bought one, and now I'm back to straight knives! At the end of the day a planer is a thicknessing tool and although the insert heads are nice, they certainly are not a necessity.

good luck,
JeffD

[Joe Angrisani]

I don't know how you conclude that a 20" sander is going to add that much more versatility? Just like there are those who say that light cuts eliminates tare out.

I recently had an order for multiple cutting boards for a customer. I used some nice maple and you would think it wouldn't have any problems. I had an older cast iron 15" planer, and you had a choice. If you make a light enough cut to eliminate the tare out, but it wouldn't remove the indentations from the infeed roller, or live the with tare out.

I ended up removing the tare out on my 12" jointer that has a byrd head.....

I don't get it. Do these machines have a device that weighs the boards? I can see wanting to eliminate tear out, but I don't see why you'd need anything to do with weight measurement.

;)

[Greg Portland]

Do you really plane material wider than 15" often enough to require a 20" machine? It is quite possible you do.Speaking for myself, I use the extra capacity to run multiple boards in parallel. I stagger the start time so all 4 aren't finishing at the same time. This is of course assuming that the original stock is about the same thickness. If not, I'll make the 1st pass serially and then run the boards in parallel after that.

Oh, to answer the 1st post I'd base my decision on what I'm building. If I'm dealing with large cabinet projects I'd vote for the drum sander. The time saved sanding (vs ROS sander) is going to be a huge improvement (note you'll still need to sand past 180 by hand). If you're working on smaller projects then the spiral head would make sense because the sanding steps won't take nearly as long.

[Bob Feeser]

I love this stuff!

[James Baker SD]

I haven't seen this yet, (maybe I did not read carefully) but I say get the 20" planer with the Byrd head AND the dual drum sander. Its only money. :-)

[James White]

I haven't seen this yet, (maybe I did not read carefully) but I say get the 20" planer with the Byrd head AND the dual drum sander. Its only money. :-)

This would be my vote. Not because its not my money. But because sometimes you can get your knives fresh back from being sharpened and take 45 min. to install them. Then on the very first board. You get a nick in the knives! That really gets me worked up! If I had the $1600 to buy a Byrd Shelix for my 25" Woodmaster. It would be a done deal. I have one in my jointer and I love it.

So get the planer with the Shelix and save up for the sander is what I would do. Or get a smaller sander.

James

[Don Wacker]

I use my dual drum sander to remove the scallop marks left by my Byrd head on cabinet door panel glue ups. I think there really is no perfect head so buy what ever suits you. Im going back to straight knife. The Byrd head does not like planing the skinny edge of stiles and rails for final dimensioning.

Don

[Bob Feeser]

Ok so after all of the help you have been giving me I made up my mind, for more reasons than one, yes a lot more.
1) I'm keeping the 15" planer with straight knives.
2) I'm saving my pennies for the 26" sander.

In free form commenting, and in no particular order this is what I discovered. Planers are not sanders, and even drum or belt sanders are not final sanders. You still need a hand held random orbit sander for the final pass. Yes large sanders save a lot of time getting it down close though.

Planers with straight blades are smoother for a little while than the spirals but due to the weakness of HSS they dull and then the spirals take over and last longer with a better edge. The end product still needs to be ROSanded.

I don't usually run across boards that are wider than 13" so a 20" isn't necessary. Trying to dream of using only one side for rough passes and the other side for final passes is a pipe dream because most of my stock from the mill is 12" or a little wider which would take it over the half a planer mark. If I planed carefully and glued up carefully, I wouldn't need a 20" planer to run glue ups through because the 26" sander would do that, and with greater capacity.

The lesser noise level form a spiral head is an interesting point. I am used to my Craftsman planer which is so loud it is equivalent to a 747 while standing in the runway. this Shop Fox is so quiet it makes as much noise as a random orbit sander. I was shocked even with the straight blades. The online noise test had the results of a planer created 93db of sound with straight knives, and 88db of sound which is a lot quieter with spiral knives. Now that was with planing a piece of wood. The published results for the shop fox is only 82db. I am not certain whether that is when planing stock or just running, but just running it is ridiculously quiet. My brother was in a room right above me, with his TV on down low and he didn't even know I turned it on three times it was that quiet.

In order to use the 20" with 5hp I would need to run another 40 amp circuit into the shop with 8 gauge wire. The wire alone was $200 and then I have to drill the holes through the floor joists in the overhead ceiling, and run 8 guage wire through it. Have you ever tried to feed 8 gauge through joists before? I did when I hooked up the 40 amp circuit for my 5hp table saw. It ain't fun. With the 15" it runs actually 18 amps and the owners manual says it's a 20 amp 220volt circuit which I already have several outlets in the shop at that rating.

I already bought 10' of 4" hose which is what the 15" planer dust hood is. The 20" is a 5 inch and I would have to start all over again to modify my 4" system.

So no matter which one I would keep, the 15 or the 20 the final sanding would need to be done on something other than a planer. So for $2020 I can have a 26" sander which beats it all for capacity and final finish, and zero tear out. (It doesn't replace a planer though for milling rough stock) In the Shop Fox manual they say that the sander IS NOT a planer. I can understand that, but then again, if you were taking some 1" stock down, and you got it even on both sides, so a sander can handle it, and even if you got some tear out that was less than what your final dimensioning would be, let's say 3/4" then you could place the workpiece in the sander and do the final runs and get no tearout. It's interesting that the sander is rated at 1/16" per pass and so is the 20" planer. (Although the 20" planer says it will handle up to 1/8" per pass but they don't suggest it.)

So to wrap this whole thing up. I was trying to make a planer into a final sander, and no matter which head I use, that ain't gonna happen. This is not a dig against spiral heads. If I had the money, that would be a great way to go to. But when you add it up, a 15" planer for $1199 and a 26" sander for $2020 is a pretty sound investment. Besides I am dreaming of having those matching babies sitting side by side in the middle of one end of the shop. You could have them both close to one another and then have the choice of which board to send through which one of them. You only need to access each one on one side. It's just the idea that both of them side by side would look so awesome and not take up that much space. Ok, Ok I know that is the kid in me talking. :p

[Cary Falk]

Wait a minute!!! Everybody that posted here should be ashamed of themselves(Except James and James for trying for both). We apparently talked Bob DOWN to a 15" planer. That's against everything this site is about. :(I thought this was a spiral vs straight thread.:confused:


All joking aside, congrats on your decision. :cool:

[Mike Heidrick]

That sander used is generally at least half the price of it new - Same for the G1066R/Z. Even many Woodmester sanders have that bad a resale value. That will buy a 150/3 and vac to finsih the panels off proper. Shop around.

[Jeff Duncan]

One thing you should know up front, I don't care what the manual says, if you try to remove 1/16" from hardwoods through a sander your going to run into trouble! I wouldn't try that with my 25 hp wide belt. Very generally speaking your going to be taking off stock in the thousands of an inch at a time. For hardwoods you might take 1/16" off in maybe 4 passes, in softwoods you may be able to get more aggressive, don't really know as I don't use them much. Of course it all depends on the specific wood, the grit of paper, the hp of the sander etc etc. but in general don't expect that kind of sanding. Sanders are great machines and I would never be without one, you just have to know what they can and cannot do.

With good sharp knives in a a well tuned planer you shouldn't get too much tear-out. Some woods are definitely more prone to it and it's hard to avoid it completely, but even the insert heads will tear-out in difficult woods, just to a lesser extent. If you have a lot of deep tear-out the sander is going to take quite a few passes to get rid of it. But if your wood is that gnarly to begin with, it's going to be a beast with hand tools also. I'm not a hand tool aficionado as some on here are, but my planes are fairly well tuned and can usually cut tissue thin shavings off of maple. Once you hit those gnarly grained woods though it's either a card scraper IME, or a sander.....and if you've ever spent a lot of time scraping you'll appreciate the sander;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Jeff Duncan]

&nbsp; &nbsp; One thing you should know up front, I don't care what the manual says, if you try to remove 1/16" from hardwoods through a sander your going to run into trouble! I wouldn't try that with my 25 hp wide belt. Very generally speaking your going to be taking off stock in the thousands of an inch at a time. For hardwoods you might take 1/16" off in maybe 4 passes, in softwoods you may be able to get more aggressive, don't really know as I don't use them much. Of course it all depends on the specific wood, the grit of paper, the hp of the sander etc etc. but in general don't expect that kind of sanding. Sanders are great machines and I would never be without one, you just have to know what they can and cannot do.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; With good sharp knives in a a well tuned planer you shouldn't get too much tear-out. Some woods are definitely more prone to it and it's hard to avoid it completely, but even the insert heads will tear-out in difficult woods, just to a lesser extent. If you have a lot of deep tear-out the sander is going to take quite a few passes to get rid of it. But if your wood is that gnarly to begin with, it's going to be a beast with hand tools also. I'm not a hand tool aficionado as some on here are, but my planes are fairly well tuned and can usually cut tissue thin shavings off of maple. Once you hit those gnarly grained woods though it's either a card scraper IME, or a sander.....and if you've ever spent a lot of time scraping you'll appreciate the sander<img src="images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" smilieid="5" class="inlineimg"><br><br>good luck,<br>JeffD

[John Lanciani]

I thought that the 15" planer was DOA and that Amazon had already shipped the 20"???

[Steven Wayne]

I thought that the 15" planer was DOA and that Amazon had already shipped the 20"???

Same here!

[Bob Feeser]

Amazon made me an offer I couldn't refuse pertaining to keeping the 15" planer. I woke up in the wee hours this morning when it was dark out, and have a deep craving for a nap so that is what I am going to do, and then I will come back when I get a moment and repost the deal. It's a doozie of a situation, something you can't cover in a few sentences. The bottom line is with all of the obstacles in the way of the 20" model switch, even though it was already at the local shipping storage facility it didn't make sense to do it. In the words of Mr Spock. Fascinating! I'll give you a hint. Ever try carrying a 952 pound planer down the basement steps by yourself? The free "enhanced delivery to my basement floor ended with the 15. Ouch. :eek:

[Bob Feeser]

If you want to know what drove my decision to keep the 15 here is the sequence of events. Ok so as earlier stated I plugged the 15 into the wall, released the safety/stop button pressed in the green on button and only got a rrrrgghhhh, or hummmm out of the planer with no movement. I tried it 3 times and each time I hit the stop button, and then released it, and then hit the green button. In the back of my head I really wanted the 20" instead, and I am familiar with Amazon's defective or damaged merchandise policy because I have bought so many items from them. They give you a choice of either sending you parts and provide you with a discount to cover your labor, or they pick the defective one up and ship you a new machine. So since i wanted the 20" I opted for that instead. No problem, they issued me a return sticker, and placed the order for the 20". This way they could drop off the 20 while picking up the 15.

The 15 came with enhanced shipping which included them taking it down the stairs and placing it on the floor in the basement. It wasn't an official decree they made, I just picked it up as something that has happened because it was mentioned in the reviews. So when I phoned about it they said we will issue the enhanced status but it was up to the carrier. Well the carrier simply subbed it out to another service who was hungry for the job so they did it. So down the steps it went, almost faster than we hoped. It was a close one when it started to skip a few steps, but the guy underneath caught it.

Ok so now the plot thickens. I am mechanically inclined like most of the membership here at SMC so I woke up in the morning and realized I better get a video of this thing making the noise before I send it back to prove what I was talking about. Meanwhile the night before I got curious as to whether the heads themselves could be jammed on something causing the problem. They have an easy access panel on the side so you can adjust the belts; two knobs un-twist and there they are. So I moved the belts and they moved freely thereby moving the motor and heads. So in the morning when I awoke with this video idea, I went down there, pulled the plastic cover off of it and plugged it in, and with the video running I hit the on button and presto, the thing ran normally. I hit stop, and then go three times and each time it started normally. Oh my God, now I have a problem. The other machine was already coming. So I took some counsel from someone close to me and they tried to make me feel good by telling me to not worry about it, they probably won't even check the machine.

When I went to bed that night I didn't feel right about it. Upon arising I knew I had to call Amazon and tell them exactly what happened. I don't know why it worked after that? Was it because there could possibly be a bad spot on the armature and I moved it off of that spot so now it worked? How would I prove it now that I moved it? How could I find that one specific spot again? So I called Amazon and explained it to them, and wanted them to know the truth, and asked for their advice. They took note of it and mentioned the new one was on the way, so I felt like look I did the honest thing and it is out of my hands now. If I had to eat it I would not like it but sometimes you have to accept the things you cannot change.

So I called the carrier to see what the tie up was because they had it in the local warehouse already. They told me to get the old one out of the basement, and hoist the new one down the steps they would need special approval from Amazon for the charges. They wouldn't tell me how much the charges were, but only that it would be expensive because the task required specialty equipment and trained personnel. So Amazon got in touch with me via email and told me that the new one would not be placed on my basement floor and would only be delivered to my garage and that is it. It was up to me to take it down the steps and place it in the basement. All 952 pounds worth. They also encouraged me to keep the 15.

I really wanted the 20 so they said, "We will call the carrier who dropped it off and if they will pick it up for the standard charge then we will ok that, but the 952 pound 20" would be up to me to get it in the basement and they would only deliver it to my garage. So at first I was stubborn and said, "Ok call the carrier and see if they will do it". Whenever I am in doubt I go in and lay down, and center myself, and then seek wisdom. The thoughts that came to my head were that the $200 eight gauge wire I would have to run, the mods to the dust collection system to accomodate the 5" hose, and the special run into the neighboring state to pick up the 8 gauge extension cord wire like I did for my PM66 5hp, and most especially how am I going to get a 952 pound planer down the steps? It dawned on me, it's time to keep the 15.

I also realized that if this problem showed up again in the future, Shop Fox provides a 2 year warranty, and I could fix or replace whatever part made it happen in the first place. I also realized that Amazon when faced with a possibly defective/part replacement situation, they will upon approval provide a small discount for the inconvenience. So I asked Amazon and she went to her supervisor who was more than willing at this point to do something rather than face the basement haul, and they acquiesced and gave me a small discount. Upon that I said, "I'm keeping the 15". They also mentioned in the email when they told me the movement of the 20" into the basement was on me, that reversing the shipment on the 20" would still provide me with a full refund for that one.

You have to understand, I have bought over 300 items from Amazon, and out of all of that I have only had a couple of claims and they were for transportation damage. One or two went back, and the other they sent me the broken parts. Once I opened my mind to the 15 instead of the 20 I realized that I never plane boards that are over 13" anyhow, and what I really needed was a 26" sander to do the things I was hoping the 20" planer would do. So with the price tag/normal selling price of $1199 I would be closer to saving up the money to buy the $2020 sander, than I would be with the $1853 I would have to spend for the 20" planer. So I am planning on using the 15 and working toward the 26" sander instead.

I will tell you this, actually two things. One is I buy all of my woodworking equipment from Amazon because of their outstanding customer service, and I absolutely love the Shop Fox 15" planer. I may even take a video of this and place it on You Tube so I can post it here and show you how quiet this thing is. Next to my old Craftsman planer if I had both of them running at the same time, you wouldn't even realize the Shop Fox was turned on. Every time I look at that planer I am going to be happy knowing I did the right thing, and what a sweetheart piece of equipment it is. And then I am going to dream about the day that I have both that planer and the 26" sander sitting side by side ready to take on whatever I dish out to them.

[Steven Wayne]

So, there was nothing wrong with the planer?

[Bob Feeser]

So, there was nothing wrong with the planer?

I take it you don't want to bother to read my above rather lengthy explanation, but therein lies the answer. Thanks for asking though.

[Steven Wayne]

Bob, I wasn't being rude. I read your post above. My question was sincere. The two posts on your planer are hard to follow. It sounds like there was nothing wrong with the planer, which is what I asked. Sorry to offend.

[Jim Foster]

Have you considered the Powermatic dual drum sander. It's more money, but after having single drum sander, I'd love to step up to a dual drum if I could justify the effort of selling mine and getting it installed in my 2nd floor shop. If I did not have a drum sander and knew what I know now, I'd get the dual drum without pause.

[Bob Feeser]

Bob, I wasn't being rude. I read your post above. My question was sincere. The two posts on your planer are hard to follow. It sounds like there was nothing wrong with the planer, which is what I asked. Sorry to offend.

I am the one who should apologize to you. Sorry for the short answer. This has been a frustrating experience, and maybe I was running a little low on octane. :-) Thank you for your kind response.

[Bob Feeser]

Jim,
Thanks for your reply. I love Powermatic equipment, I have a PM66 5hp table saw, their stand hollow chisel mortiser, and their 60B 8" jointer. They are the hallmarks of my shop. I did look at PM when I was deciding on a planer, and the PM's in the planers were loaded with well less than 5 star reviews, and the Shop Fox was seven 5 star reviews, and only two 4 star reviews, and they were from those who didn't want to go through the bother of setting up the machine.

So that thinking is now bleeding over to the dual drum sander however the PM dual drum sander has several good reviews, and no other bad reviews so obviously there are a lot of people in complete agreement with you.
So now onto the dollars and cents of it. I love PM gold in my shop. However I am blown away with the quailty of the Shop Fox 15" planer which is the number one seller in Amazon once you get over the hobby machines below it.

So here is the deal. Both machines are dual drum sanders. PM is over 4 grand, and Shop Fox is $2020 at the moment. Here are the links here; http://www.amazon.com/SHOP-W1678-26-Inch-Drum-Sander/dp/B001R23SRC/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1321722903&sr=1-1 and
http://www.wayfair.com/Powermatic-25-Dual-Drum-Sander-1791290-WMI1013.html?refid=AC49-WMI1013#specs Ok so the PM is 840 pounds and the shop Fox is 540 so the PM does appear to be a heavier duty machine. My shop is in the basement so moving 540 is not exactly a feather weight. :-)

But yes the dual drum sander seems to be the way to go, and I am dreaming of saving up my pennies towards one as soon as possible. It seems to solve the problems that planers have with snipe and tear out. So the question is do you get any chatter or anything else that results in a less than smooth surface from the dual drum sander?

[David Kumm]

Look at used Performax- now supermax as well. Made here and a top of the line machine. They aren't very complicated machines so if the motors are good, used is a good value. They come with a pretty good Leeson motor. Dave

[Aleks Hunter]

I have a similar setup but a grizzly 20" straight knife planer and the same shop fox 26" double drum sander.

Get the double drum sander! Set it up right and you get two passes for the effort of one.


I'll agree, size matters. But it does lead down a slippery slope. I finally broke down and bought a bigger jointer, a 24" for wide boards, and guess what, that 20" planer is looking like it wants to be swapped out for a 24".

Seriously though the 20" has considerably more power, and 5hp will do a better job in the long run than 3 hp. But whatever rotating chisel gizmo you use, you will generally need to sand. Machine jointed edges look machine jointed. Put a nice finish without sanding or at least scraping and it looks mire machine cut.

[Jim Foster]

I did not realize the Shop Fox was a dual drum. Looks like a great way to go.

[Bob Feeser]

I have a similar setup but a grizzly 20" straight knife planer and the same shop fox 26" double drum sander.

Get the double drum sander! Set it up right and you get two passes for the effort of one.


I'll agree, size matters. But it does lead down a slippery slope. I finally broke down and bought a bigger jointer, a 24" for wide boards, and guess what, that 20" planer is looking like it wants to be swapped out for a 24".

Seriously though the 20" has considerably more power, and 5hp will do a better job in the long run than 3 hp. But whatever rotating chisel gizmo you use, you will generally need to sand. Machine jointed edges look machine jointed. Put a nice finish without sanding or at least scraping and it looks mire machine cut.

Aleks,
Thanks for the information. I was wondering what kind of finish does the Shop Fox dual drum sander leave. I heard of some drum sanders leaving chatter marks in the wood which would defeat the advantage of the unit. Is that the case maybe in just the one side open ended units. I see the Shop Fox drums are attached on both sides to pedestals so to speak so the accuracy increases. So please let me know exactly what to expect in terms of evenness of the finish on the SF dual drum. What does it take after that to produce a perfect finely sanded product?

[glenn bradley]

A little late but, interesting reading: http://www.finewoodworking.com/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id=34431

[Aleks Hunter]

Hi Bob. The SF sander leaves a very nice finish. The drums themselves are fairly heavy aluminum, with the hook and loop glued on them. The pillow blocks are very solid, there is a bit of give between the Hook and loop backing and the rubber conveyor that moves the stock, which helps to avoid the chatter marks you mentioned. They are common in drums that are not hook and loop but smooth aluminum, with no give to them. Like any machine there may be some fine tuning you will have to do.

I may have been lucky, but the drums were dead on within .001" of where they were supposed to be on each end vs. one another and the platen. you will need a rotocator to measure this, It is crucial that the drums are parallel to the platen, and that the rear drum is no more than .010 lower than the front drum. Mine came from the factory at .008 and I have left them there with good results.

Another thing is to avoid lousy sandpaper. I've been using Klingspor and been very happy with 100 in front and 150 in the back. Different woods will require different feed rates and a differing movement increment between passes. Its trial and error at first, but you will get the hang of it.

Also invest in a big prostick pad to clean the drums. It more than pays for itself.

And most important for your health, have a big dust collector and short run to it. It does make a LOT of dust.

[Mike Cruz]

Bob, I think it all depends on what you make. If you tend to make a lot of face frames for cabinets, I say get the two machines. If you do a lot of boards, save the $1000 and get the Byrd head. We had a sander at my old job and it had it's purposes, but honestly, we used the planer WAY more and it would have saved a LOT of wood and a LOT of hassle if we had had a Byrd head on that planer. Of course, I had never even heard of the Byrd heads then, so what did I know. But in retospect, that Byrd head would have solved a lot of headaches...

[Dan Forman]

As for Byrd Shelix vs Tersa, I took the Tersa head out of my MiniMax 14# jointer/planer and replaced it with a Byrd head, with no regrets. The Byrd cutters are carbide squares, with a very slight radius to the edge. They are about 1/2" wide, and pretty much eliminate tearout, except in the gnarliest of woods. You can send most boards through against the grain if need be with no tearout. They are unfazed by knots, and stay sharp for a looong time, then you just rotate to the next cutting edge. You will need to sand after planing to remove the very slight furrows that appear due to the radius of the cutters, but you would have to sand after using Tersa knives too. The furrows are only about .001 deep, easier to feel than see, but they are there. I have been told that they don"t interfere with edge joining.

My Tersa knives used to chip on knots, would leave tearout with curly maple, don't hold an edge that long, are fairly expensive though very easy to replace. The easy replacement is the only value I see in them.

By the way, getting that JP down into my basement was an adventure, even with about 6 people helping. It weighs about 950 pounds, wouldn't want to do that again.

Dan

[Jeff Duncan]

I owned the Powermatic dual drum for a couple years and have to say it is a very well built unit. I looked at a couple others at the time and it was far and away heavier and IMHO a better quality build. They are pricey new, but do come up used from time to time. I think I got something in the neighborhood of $2k for mine when I sold it. It does not have the hook and loop drums and I never missed them. I really still don't understand why you would want that on the drums, but it does seem like those who have it get used to it and are fine with it? The only thing I would have liked is a slightly bigger motor, maybe a 7-1/2hp, but the 5hp gets things done.

Anyway just thought I'd give you my feedback for what it's worth, good luck!
JeffD

[Van Huskey]

Although the decision has been made if someone else is mulling this over realize over the course of the machines life the segmented cutter heads will cost you less than the knifed planer if you run a decent amount of wood through them. I won't own a jointer or planer without them for that an numerous other reasons.

Second which is still applies to the OP, when you get close to having the money for the sander start looking for used Woodmaster drum sanders you won't be sorry.