Veritas planes: how flat?

[miguel bernardo]

Hi all! Just a small question: i just bought myself a veritas low angle jack plane, but found out that the sole wasn´t entirely flat and that the sides weren´t perfectly square either... can you guys confirm me that´s normal? they do say their planes are lapped and ready to use.

also, i am having a bit o fa problem getting the sides square to the sole. any tips? an aside: started lapping on a 220 grit wet-or-dry SiCarbide sandpaper on a veritas lapping glass and went to 600. would that be considered good practice?

thanks in advance,
Miguel.

[Chris Griggs]

Unless it was purchased used, DO NOT TRY TO LAP IT SQUARE. Send it back, Lee Valley will stand behind their product 100% - In fact, I suspect that Rob Lee will chime in here shortly with further instruction - that's the kind of service they offer and its a big part of what you pay for when you buy from them.

That said how out of flat and square? - I can see a hair of light come through when I hold a ruler up to any of my Veritas planes (which may be the rulers fault), but light can fit through a pretty tiny gap - I have yet to see a plane where I couldn't see any light through a straight edge on the sole. My LABP isn't dead on perfectly square either (once again, could be the squares fault) but its square enough that I when I shoot with it I don't need to adjust blade laterally at all to shoot a square/plum edge - so for all practical purposes its square. Square is as square does, and flat is a flat does.

My LAPB also has a touch (and I do mean a touch) of concavity across the width of the sole but I'm fairly certain its within LVs high tight tolerances - for squareness I don't think LV actually lists official tolerances, but it should be pretty darn square. If Rob doesn't chime in call LV or email him personally, and the problem will get solved.

[john brenton]

First question would be what you were checking the flatness with. I would be leery of relying on a regular old straight edge.

Secondly, I would STOP what I was doing and contact Lee Valley. It might be too late to make a claim as you've already started modifying it though.

[Dale Cruea]

I have 2 LN planes and when I check them with my known straight edges I can see light also.
I do know from die making that you will always see some light with a straight edge.
You can see very small variances with light. The idea is to learn how much you are seeing.
Usually you will see a low in the middle of what you are checking.
Measure the difference. under .002" you are good to go.
I would say if the plane works, use it.
My LN are not dead square either. At least not to my square. They are within a few thousandths.
If you are unhappy or think there is a problem call LV.
They have a great rep for handling any problems.

[John Coloccia]

You can see very small variances with light. The idea is to learn how much you are seeing.


Ah...truer words have never been spoken. As woodworkers we tend to be spoiled with "perfect" joints...because they really are perfect under even light clamping pressure (or sometimes just their own weight). People with machining experience know there is no such thing....there's only close enough and not close enough. LOL.

[David Weaver]

ditto to what john says - you paid for a plane that's flat and square to within a specification. If you have reliable tools and it's not in that specification, get one that is.

I have had LN planes that have varied from no light against a brand new starrett straight edge, to what is a noticeable amount of concavity (on a LN 8)

But when you compare it on orders of magnitude to how far off a vintage plane may be, they are many times flatter and more square than a vintage plane.

Save an attempt at squaring up a plane for a vintage plane. You can do it by marking, adjusting pressure, checking, .... over and over and over and get a plane much closer than far off. But you'll not get it to be two perfect planes 90º from each other just because of little nitty gritty details like the toe and heel sides wearing a lot faster than the tallest part of the cheek.

But I've never lapped a new LN or LV. If they're so far out they need it, they're out of spec by a wide margin. The rest of the attempts at removing all visible light will probably be an exercise in fixing problems you can measure to create problems that you're not measuring.

[Terry Beadle]

I too would not recommend you try and "square" the sides to the sole.

I recommend David Charlesworth's shooting techniques as it gives you much more flexibility to meet the different shooting characteristics of different species of wood. He uses thin shims on the shooting board, placed strategically so that you obtain a square cut in both dimensions.

It is possible that the LV low angle jack's sole might need a bit of fettle-ing but very little. Are you using majic marker or machinist blue dye to check?

You should send an email requesting guidance from LV as they really know their products.

600 grit is about max as you need to go. 400 should do. 320 is plenty...I think I feel a rhyme coming on...hoot!

Also, use some automobile semi-crome polish on the sole once you are satisfied you are flat. It will put a polished surface on the sole that will accept wax and provide a surface that requires less maintenance.

[Prashun Patel]

Miguel, does your plane work well? I'm curious if you discovered this out of the box, or because of some investigation after you determined yr plane wasn't working as you thought it should.

[john brenton]

To dovetail on what Terry was saying, I've done something similar with my shooting board. It is a sandwiched piece on mdf, with a QS white oak strip as a "runway" for the block plane. Instead of messing with the blockplane, I scraped the white oak strip until the plane was as close to a 90* angle as possible.

Even if you had a perfectly square plane, your shooting board could be off. It's better to custom fit some cheap materials then go wasting away good metal from a good plane.

[miguel bernardo]

Thanks guys,your replies are much appreciated. I don´t have time ATM to read all of them thoroughly, but i will later on. I will just post the complete story: when i got my LAJP from veritas i decided i would polish the sole on a lapping glass with some 600 SiCarbide wet or dry sandpaper (i would go until 1200 and then rub some carnauba wax and sand again) so that the plane would run smoothly on my guitar tops and on the shooting board. But when i was at 600 grit i found out that it wasn´t polishing the sole of the plane evenly - i thought it could be my lack of technique, so i switched sides and lapped it symmetricaly to check if the unpolished parts changed place, but tehy didn´t. The sole seemed to be consistently loosing metal on just some spots - so i used a straightedge (a veritas, incidentally) and found it had a hollow on the middle in the back part of the sole and that the front was also not flat (right side was higher IIRC). So i decided to lap it and post here for help.

Thanks,in,advance,
Miguel.

[Tony Shea]

So i decided to lap it and post here for help.


Without meaning to beat you up too bad, I really think you should have done the above quote in the opposite order. Should have posted here first, then lap if you really felt it neccessary. I have 4 LN bench planes and a LV LAJP and have not checked any of the brand new ones for flatness as they all worked flawlessly out of the box. A LN #5 that I picked up used from a retired boat builder was a different story. He used the plane well and it had significantly gone out of flat and was not working correctly. But the order was that I set it up and used it until it was odvious there was an issue. Then checked for flatness. I brought the plane to Lie Nielsen, luckily I live an hour away, and they took it off my hands to fix it for me. I expected a call or maybe a bill in the mail for the fixup, but instead recieved my plane with a note that said they had to regrind the sole flat and fix a few other things that bothered them. They actually apologized for any inconviencances it caused me even know that I bought this plane used from a boat builder.

My point is that in no way should you be modifying any planes from these higher end companies before calling them personally to see what their advise is. Chances are they will absolutely go good for any issues that are beyond their tolerences.

[Jim Matthews]

Not to be obtuse, but did you have the blade installed for the process?

[miguel bernardo]

you´re probably right, but i had three issues to consider:

- new toy syndrome (aka i want to use it now)

- there are no dealers in my country, so i bought it online via a german dealer and it would take me too much time to try to get a substitute compared to lapping one

- theold stanleys i recovered (a 5, a 4 1/2 and a 60 1/2) were all good fun

[miguel bernardo]

OK, i´m yet to understand how to reply in the proper place in this forum, my replies end up in strange places.

Thanks for the tip on the auto-polish, i might use it! Now for the questions:

I´m using a marker to check where the sole is being "eaten".

My straight-edge are two actually: a veritas 900mm metal one and a 300mm preiser. It´s not that some light goes through, it´s that light goes through some places but not others. And the periphery of the sole does not seem to be "flat" either, i.e. i´m not able to polish all of it.

The blade is in the plane.



I´m thinking i should check with LV help service.

Side note: I love the veritas stuff i already have and i not that put off by having to lap one more plane. I´m not in quest for justice, i´m just trying to see what´s the best method to getthis behind my back.

Again,
thanks all.

Miguel.

[Trevor Walsh]

When you say lapping glass do you mean a piece of float glass?

If so then there is your problem, it has been demonstrated (notably by George Wilson if I remember correctly) that glass is in fact not rigid enough to support itself in a dead flat state, it will sag under it's own weight and conform to the irregularities of the supporting surface. I would get a cast iron lapping plate or granite surface plate if you intend to do this work. I "lapped" a #4 with paper on glass one time, I got it shiny and with total blue out, After checking on a surface plate the plane was indeed out of flat. I sent it to be ground. Float glass is not a lapping plate.

[Rob Fisher]

When you say lapping glass do you mean a piece of float glass? If so then there is your problem, it has been demonstrated (notably by George Wilson if I remember correctly) that glass is in fact not rigid enough to support itself in a dead flat state, it will sag under it's own weight and conform to the irregularities of the supporting surface. I would get a cast iron lapping plate or granite surface plate if you intend to do this work.Really? Float glass is not flat? What thickness are we talking here? I am asking as I have never heard this before, in fact just the opposite. So if the supporting surface is flat then the glass should be flat?

[Brian Ashton]

My low angle smoother is about .16mm out on one side and about .08mm out on the other side relative to the sole. I used two engineers squares to check it. To be honest it's no big deal because any shooting board you use will be out by something that varies on a day to day basis because it's made out of a wood product. Simply take a few test cuts and adjust the blade to suit.

Neither my block plane or smoother soles are flat either. But again it's not a big deal as we work in wood. Precision isn't something we can get too caught up on because of the nature of the medium we work with. Plane a board dead flat and straight one day and then check it a week later, say on a day when it's raining and or much hotter... The only thing you really need to be concerned with is accumulative error. By that I mean trying to glue up a bunch of boards that are all bowed on both edges will have a compounding effect on the end boards and risk "popping" later. Or if you try to glue up two wider boards you will need to get the joints to fit well... Hopefully that makes sense.

[Trevor Walsh]

The following is a post from Practical Machinist. One of the well respected members there had first hand experience evaluating the flatness of a piece of glass and the results it produced. I used to think plate glass was fine for small work (block planes) and waterstone flattening, but now I'm not so convinced. I certainly don't think it's appropriate for a long plane.



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Sandpaper (abrasive sheet lapping) on glass is a procedure that will not die. Hand planes are not high precision tools. They do not have to be made to NIST standards to perform satisfactorily. Much of the discussion on flatness and lapping of plane soles is a product of excalating ignorance and hysteria much in a class with magnet therapy and fad diets.

I've milled, surface ground, hand scraped, and abrasive sheet lapped dozens of hand planes in my day. Every one of these planes stayed put and every one got good reviews from knowledgeable woodworkers who used them.

The only practical requirement for a hand plane sole is they have to be flat to very slighly convex and fairly smooth - 63 micro-inch or better. I've flattened hand plane soles to 0.0002" in the full length and discovered they worked not quite as well to my personal taste as those with a slight convexity.

It's a curious situation. Hand plane owners will put themselves through incredible labors lapping and scraping on the theory that perfect flatness will ultimately come to them if they do something laborous enough for a long enough time - like it was a flagilation pilgrimage. What few fail to realize is that glass even in commercial door thicknesses is somewhat flexible. Maybe the prevailing feeling is that the deflection of the glass will somehow go away if it's supported on a wood bench.

If your goal is to make something flat you need a reliable flatness reference. While glass is a material with a high modulus of elasticity its actual stiffness is low because of the commercially available thicknesses available.

I was invited to a man's home shop for a professional consult. His plate glass home shop lapping surface I examined was 6" wide and 2 ft long by 3/8 thick. I demonstrated for the shop owner on my granite flat the several Stanley/Bailey pointer planes he had lapped on his plate glass were infact convex by 0.005 to 0.008".

I set his glass plate up on the owner's saw table on sticks at its Arey points and determined with a dial indicator and magnetic base the plate deflected 0.010" or so with only a few pounds of hand pressure applied in the center of the plate.

By comparison a low cast 18" x 24" granite surface plate is 3" thick. Since deflection underload varies with the square of the thickness of a member and directly with its width a 3" thick 18" x 24" granite flat is 192 (theoretically) times as stiff as the 6" x 24" plate glass 3/8" thick I refered to.

The man whose shop I violated with metrological rigor was angry with me. He'd spent hundreds of hours "flattening" and in ten minutes I proved with a granite flat and a box of tools I brought along that all his work came to nothing. His dozen planes were not flat. They were convex. He'd lost faith in them; they were sullied as though they were sacred relics fallen into pagan hands.

Absolute flatness does not in my experience make a plane perform any better. I pointed that out to the man but it made no improvement to his mood. There was no consoling the man so I picked up my stuff and left. That was 13 years ago and the man is still short with me. Shoot the messenger.

What was sad was that his not-flat hand-lapped planes worked perfectly but suddenly they were no good because they were not perfectly flat.

So a glass reference won't make a plane sole flat but a hand plane sole abrasive sheet lapped on it may still function well.

There's been mention of loose abrasive lapping of the plane's sole directly on glass. Don't do it. Glass has a much lower rupture strength than cast iron. Glass laps VERY easily. Cast iron is much tougher than glass; it preferentially laps glass. In a loose abrasive lapping situation about 6 to 8 times more weight of glass is lapped away than the cast iron which is lapped against it. Without accessible flatness references the process is entirely uncontrolled and there's no telling what shape your plane soles will be in when you finally decide you're "done".

My point is, popular belief can be far afield from practical reality. Before one invests in the helpful suggestions offered by a self-promoting "experts" in woodworking magazines (they have to fill pages somehow) or touted by popular culture it never hurts to check out the practicality of the suggestions with somone of demonstrated expertize and cool competency and maybe run some controlled experiments.

Those of you who wish to lap their hand planes soles and desire to obtain the maximum practical flatness get rid of the glass. Plate glass as a lapping surface is a yokel's tool accepted on blind faith and easily debunked by the simplest apparatus. Instead get a cheap import 18" x 24" granite flat. It costs $40 - $60 and weighs just over 100 Lb thus it's easy for most able bodied men to move around. Shipping can be a significant cost.

Do yourself a favor. Hand file and scrape the plane's sole to the flatness you desire. Use the discussion listed in several links above as a "how to". Abrasive sheet lap only to obtain the final finish. Two hour's work with a hand file and a scraper will accomplish more in efficient flattening than 10 hours of abrasive sheet lapping.

[Rob Lee]

Miguel -

Please contact me at rlee@leevalley.com .... I'll be glad to replace your plane - if you promise not to lap the replacement....

Cheers -

Rob

[truitt sosebee]

Miguel - Please contact me at rlee@leevalley.com .... I'll be glad to replace your plane - if you promise not to lap the replacement....Cheers - RobNow that's customer service! Kind of makes me want to go order something from Lee Valley...

[Maurice Ungaro]

Miguel - Please contact me at rlee@leevalley.com .... I'll be glad to replace your plane - if you promise not to lap the replacement....Cheers - RobRob, you're a good man, with a sense of humor!

[miguel bernardo]

wow! talk about consumer service! i really don´t know what to say... i´m humbled, i honestly didn´t post here out of indignation (hope that came across) or with the intention of getting a new plane and i don´t know if i even deserve a new plane... but i´m really impressed the offer! thanks!

miguel.

[Rob Fisher]

The following is a post from Practical Machinist. One of the well respected members there had first hand experience evaluating the flatness of a piece of glass and the results it produced. I used to think plate glass was fine for small work (block planes) and waterstone flattening, but now I'm not so convinced. I certainly don't think it's appropriate for a long plane...

After reading the machinist post I am a bit confused. He says he measures the glass by setting sticks under its "Ayers points" and applying hand pressure. I don't know exactly what that means, but it sounds like he is setting the glass up on sticks at the ends and pushing in the middle. If that is the case, then of course 3/8" glass 2' long will deflect. But if it is fully supported by a fairly flat surface, like maybe a workbench, then I fail to see how the glass would deflect much.

He also goes on to say that the jointer planes that had been made unflat/convex worked perfectly. So I guess I don't see where the glass is bad. I understand that the glass may not be as flat as a granite surface plate, but it seems it is good enough. This is woodworking after all. The planes work fine, isn't that the ultimate goal?

[Trevor Walsh]

I haven't found reference to the Ayers points either, but what I draw from this example is that any sort of surface irregularity under the glass will telegraph into the plate. Short of laying it on a surface plate (redundant) I don't think you can be certain of flatness.

[Rob Fisher]

I haven't found reference to the Ayers points either, but what I draw from this example is that any sort of surface irregularity under the glass will telegraph into the plate. Short of laying it on a surface plate (redundant) I don't think you can be certain of flatness.That makes sense. And for absolute flatness glass probably isn't the way to go. I guess my thought was that the glass would level out or span any imperfections in a relatively flat surface. I just need to try it for myself and see if it works.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I wonder if the the "Arey" is a typo, and he meant "array" points. That makes more sense after a brief google. I'm just pointing that out based on a few of the other misspelled words.

[John Powers]

Let me be the first to ask how that tool made by an acknowledged master of fine toolmaking worked on a piece of wood? This slapping machinist tools onto woodworking tools really defies my understanding. I'd no sooner slap a micrometer on a flyrod or a guitar than I'd fly to the moon. At least not till I'd casted or strummed them. Sorry, I'm a dirty, bitter, knurled up rat today.