Need help finishing Zebrawood

[Andy Kromkamp]

Hi Guys,

I bought some Zebrawood veneer to make some accent wall panelling and I'm having difficulty achieving the look I am hoping for. Ideally I'd like to end up with something like this:

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-10308730349237_2182_437459202.jpg

I know I won't be able to match that exactly, but I'm hoping for advise on techniques that will let me darken the overall tone while still keeping that kind of high level of grain contrast?

Thanks!

Andy K.

[Scott Holmes]

That looks a lot more like Wenge than Zebrawood. Maybe it's quartersawn Zebrawood?

Do you have tight contrasting grain like show in the picture?

[Andy Kromkamp]

Its possible it could be wenge - but the picture described it as zebrawood. Yes I have a quartersawn veneer. The grain on my veneer isn't quite as tight as this picture.

I guess I'm wondering how I could achieve that rich brown tone without losing the contrast from the grain. So far I've tried:

- minwax oil based wood stain (result is okay, not great)
- water based aniline wood dye (horrible results - no contrast whatsoever)
- BLO (I really like how the grain pops with this, but the color is too golden)
- Watco Danish Oil (This is the best result so far, particularly with a basecoat of pure BLO)

I'm going to keep applying coats of the danish oil overtop to see how the color and contrast changes. I wanted to try the dark tint of Watco finishing wax but I don't think its available in Canada anymore.

Thanks!

[Scott Holmes]

To get a nice deep color you may want to play around with some de-waxed garnet shellac as your top coat. Mix up a 2# cut from flakes and spray 2 light coats; you are done!

[alex grams]

Ditto on the shellac, that was going to be my suggestion. Or you could also try a tinted topcoat/shellac.

[Steve Jenkins]

You could also try a dye. Use a diluted solution and spray several light coats. The contrast will still be there but overall it will be darker. I did this on an endtable I made. I used a solvent based dye that was called dark walnut and thinnned it 1/2-1/2 with lacquer thinner.

[Andy Kromkamp]

Thanks guys. Would I apply the garnet shellac over BLO and/or some kind of staining/dyeing, or directly? (I guess I can experiment with a sample)

Also is spraying the shellac integral to the result, or can I brush it?

[Andy Kromkamp]

Ordered some dark garnet shellac - should be here for me to try it out on the weekend. I'm thinking at this point the base cost of linseed and then a couple of coats of shellac may give me exactly what I'm looking for - not as dark as above but nice and rich but still good grain contrast.

[Prashun Patel]

You can brush the shellac. I prefer to thin it and wipe it on.
I think y'll get pretty close to yr target with the shellac over BLO.

[Andy Kromkamp]

Thanks. What do you thin it to for wiping - 1# ?

[Prashun Patel]

About 1.5#. I'm not scientific about it: about 1.5oz in 8oz of ethanol

[Andy Kromkamp]

I got my sample shellac flakes last night and picked up some 99% isopropanol from the pharmacy to mix it up. (Denatured ethanol is very difficult to find in canada it seems)

12 hours later and most of the flakes seem to be a gummy mess at the bottom of the bottle, no matter how hard I shake. I've stirred it up a couple times and they still end up settling at the bottom.

How long should I expect this mixing process to take?

[Prashun Patel]

It's been my experience that once it's forms a solid block the easiest way to dissolve (and it will dissolve eventually) is to heat it. Of course, you have to take proper precautions when heating alcohol...

In the future, if you want to do the shake-to-dissolve method, I find it easiest to incorporate the flakes a little at a time, and to shake often before it gums up too badly. With this method, it usually takes me a few hours to get shellac in.

[Andy Kromkamp]

Just put it in a hot water bath?

[Prashun Patel]

Yeah, you can double-boil it. But keep an eye on it.

[Scott Holmes]

Keep shaking and/or stiring it; 12 hours is not really long enough. I did a batch of garnet a few weeks ago and the 3 pounds of flakes in 2-1/2 gallons of DNA took a day and a half to dissolve. Stirred whenever I thought about it, say 3-4 times per day.

[Andy Kromkamp]

Thanks guys. I put it in a hot water bath last night and that dissolved the shellac pretty quickly.

I wiped on two coats and the color change wasn't as dramatic as I had expected. I'm going to wipe on another 4-6 coats and see how the color progresses.

[Scott Holmes]

ANDY,

Shellac is not to be built up as you can with lacquer and varnish. The perfect fininf with shellac is the thinnest possible coat that is flawless. I would hope you need far less than 6 or 8 coats.

Here is an article a friend of mine wrote that explains it in great depth and detail.
http://www.hardwoodlumberandmore.com/Articles/ArticleViewPage/tabid/75/ArticleId/15/Applying-Shellac.aspx

[Prashun Patel]

Like Scott said, put it on thin. If you don't think the color is deep enough yet, then I would add brown dye to the garnet shellac b4 you add any more coats. Aiming for depth of color by simply using MORE coats of shellac than is optimal is going to lead to disappointment and a dripmarked finish. (DAMHIKT...)

[Andy Kromkamp]

Thanks - good reading, I didn't know that.

Seems like I may want to experiment some more with other tinted finishes then - just a couple coats of shellac has not really darkened the color significantly past what the BLO application gave.

[Andy Kromkamp]

Well I'm still experimenting with this. The biggest problem I am having is that when I try to stain the zebrawood veneer it's picking up "bands" anywhere from 1/4" to 1" thick where the stain absorbs darker - it's not a pleasant look. Only the linseed doesn't exhibit this effect. I've tried preconditioning with preconditioner, BLO, and clear Watco with no help.I'd like to try some kind of tinted top coat finish at this point to see if I can darken the color purely as a top coat - something I can apply multiple coats and have it get darker and darker. Any product suggestions? (possibly some kind of tinted wipe on varnish that offers a rich brown/dark walnut color)Thanks!

[Scott Holmes]

I would stay as far from tint varnish as possible.. It dries way too slowly. An even color is difficult at best. Use shellac, lacquer or a waterborne finish as a toner.

[Andy Kromkamp]

Would a water based finish apply well overtop of a base coat of shellac?Most people don't like Polyshades but for this application would multiple thin layers (possibly over a clear base coat of poly) be reasonably successful?I also read that gel stains can be used as a toner over a finishing coat?Thanks!

[Scott Holmes]

Water-borne finishes will be OK over DE-WAXED shellac. They wont stick to shellac that still has the wax; neither will poly.

Polyshades is a varnish based toner. Multiple thin coats will work in theory not in application; it dries too slowly to get even color. As it takes it's time to dry it has time to pool, sag runor drip. These will be darker than the rest of the area.

As you said "most people don't like Polyshades" This is why they don't like it; getting even color is next to impossible.

The people that claim they get "great results" with polyshades are either: very lucky, marketing guys for MinWax, or have lower standards of acceptibility.

Gel stains can be used to enhance the color (tone) but they are not "toners" they are "glaze" coats. Glaze coats need to be top coated. Toners may not need a top coat depending on the project and the type of toner. Generally, both toners and glaze coats should be applied BETWEEN clear coats.

[John Coloccia]

re: dissolving shellac

I had my wife buy me a coffee grinder at a garage sale. I grind the shellac in the grinder and it will dissolve almost immediately when it hits the alcohol.

[Andy Kromkamp]

So it sounds like I only have a couple of options (I would prefer not to use lacquer):

1)gel stain over dewaxed shellac (then seal with another coat of shellac?)

2)tinting the shellac itself (with aniline dye etc)

[Andy Kromkamp]

I did try a couple of tinted varnishes this weekend. The Polyshades as you suggested was very difficult to get an even tone with, and since I will be finishing a fairly large surface there is no hope of this working for me.

I did find a stain&varnish product from a company called Saman (Canadian only I think) that covered very well, very evenly - but it really obscured the grain and wasn't the look I was going for.

So tonight I will be experimenting with tinting the shellac.

[Andy Kromkamp]

So I tried tinting the shellac with the aniline dye powders I have - I just mixed the powder directly to the mixed shellac. I had to add a *lot* of the powder to get any noticeable color change, so I'm not sure if I mixed it correctly - should I have dissolved it in alcohol first and then mixed the liquid to the shellac?

I did find that, even with a very dark walnut dye the color I was getting was still more of a medium brown. I think I'm going to have better luck with gel stain as a glaze coat overtop of the un-dyed shellac. If I can't get towards what I'm looking for with that then I'm going to change directions and go lighter with just BLO and a clear finish :)

[Scott Holmes]

The dye powder you used should have been disoolved first. A water soluble dye will not work very well in shellac.

Have you tried the dye applied on the bare wood, then shellac to seal it in? Next step would be the glaze coat.

If you haven't tried this you should.

[Andy Kromkamp]

I did try the dye (dissolved in water) initially on the bare wood and found the results to be horrible - like I had simply painted the wood with watercolor paint.

When I was doing some research it seemed that aniline dyes do dissolve in alcohol - are you saying I should dissolve it in water first or alcohol first? If the former wouldn't that subsequently affect the shellac (due to the water content)?

Thanks!

[John Coloccia]

Transtint works well in shellac, though I normally spray it on.

[Scott Holmes]

If it will dissolve in alcohol then use alcohol. Some are water only. try using the alcohol dye on bare wood.

[Jamie Schmitz]

I was at a custom lumber yard the other day and all their chunks (turners,carving pieces) of wood that they dip in wax looked exactly like that. Also have you read anything as far as coloring with natural elements for example -soaked walnut shells,chemicals? Might try some colored Watco as well if you have not,either stock can or slightly colored burnt umber,black mixture. Just a thought, coloring an exotic wood can be challenging for sure. Age is something that is not for sale.

[Prashun Patel]

Zebrawood finished with an amber shellac or varnish (like Waterlox) looks great, IMHO. However, I find it hard to believe that an aniline dye would not evenly color the bare zebrawood, and that tinting with shellac is not achieving the right results for you. What dye are you using?

[Andy Kromkamp]

I'm just guessing but I think its probably a lot harder to get an even finish on a veneer then a piece of the solid wood? I have tried Watco medium walnut and black walnut - the former looks good but not as dark as I would like, the latter absorbs unevenly and produces the banding effect I mentioned before (even if I put down a base coat of BLO).

Prashun its not that the dye did not produce an even coloring, its just that it totally obscured the wood grain - as if I had simply painted over it. With respect to tinting the shellac, I added 1.5 tablespoons of dark walnut dye (a quarter tablespoon at a time) to approx. 100ml of de-waxed garnet shellac and that produced a medium coloring - similar but a little lighter than the Watco medium walnut color. Not nearly as dark as I had hoped (or expected)

I'll try to take some pictures of my experiments to date and upload them tonight so you can have a look.

Thanks!

[Andy Kromkamp]

Didn't get a chance to take pictures last night, I'll do so tonight hopefully.

I did have some promising results with gel stain over shellac so I'll going to experiment with that a little more. I noticed it needs two coats of 1# shellac before applying the stain - with only one coat the stain bleeds through to the wood and causes the banding to occur.

I'm going to try to find zinsser seal coat (de-waxed premixed blonde) locally - for some reason the big box stores only carry the waxed bullseye product...

[Prashun Patel]

That's great, Andy. Good luck.

I tried some tests on Zebrawood myself last night with an 'espresso' aniline mix I made from mostly black dye and a hint of brown. I was surprised at how little it blackened the wood. However, what is MOST striking is that when it dries, it almost appears as if NO dye had been applied. It takes a wetting or a top coat for the color to come out again. That got me thinking: did you evaluate your results wet or after the dye dried? It's a mistake to judge dye colors when they're dry.

Anyway, good luck with yr gel; sounds like it's working out.

[Andy Kromkamp]

interesting - did you mix with water or alcohol? The coloring I saw (and see) was the same wet and dried.

I'll upload the pictures tonight - the dye coloring is dramatic to say the least (and I barely mixed any dye into the water)

[George Gyulatyan]

Andy, be aware that aniline dyes may appear chalky when dry. Once you apply clear coat over top of it, you'll get the lustre back.

[Mike Wilkins]

2nd ditto on the Garnet shellac. I finished some old heart pine with a Garnet top coats and it looks awesome. Experiment with some scraps using different amounts of coats. Garnet with a couple of top coats of Danish just might be the bees knees.

[Andy Kromkamp]

Okay, here are some pictures of my experiments to date. First the best candidates. The samples, from left to right, are: 1)BLO only, 2)BLO, 2 coats of 1# shellac, thin coat of dark walnut gel stain, 3)Saman walnut stain+varnish (Raw Zebrawood veneer in the background)

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bpmgTjg6POE/TtjiPvDwIqI/AAAAAAAAC_E/k-p3FNrzE6o/s800/IMAGE_1000000281.JPG

In this picture (dark walnut liquid stain right onto conditioned veneer) you can see the "banding" I have been seeing with so many different products:

http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_7N0tjZsOQk/TtjiWLLh4rI/AAAAAAAAC_M/RoaidkHbUzw/s800/IMAGE_1000000284.JPG

This last picture are my three aniline dye samples - they actually look better in the picture compared to real life :) to the right are more BLO samples, you can see how much the grain is obscured by the dye:

http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zVjQPv9GhQc/Ttjibxp4AUI/AAAAAAAAC_U/eJ3jQUxVBcI/s800/IMAGE_1000000290.JPG

[Scott Holmes]

Mike,

"Danish oil" is typically an oil/varnish blend; it should be an in-the-wood finish not a top coat to a filmforming finish. The film it wwould form would be soft and rubbery. Shellac is very hard.

[Andy Kromkamp]

I picked up a gallon of zinger seal coat - more than I need but this seems like a pretty versatile product.Question - do you think I should expect a difference between sealcoat by itself and sealcoat over a coat of BLO? I don't see any difference - I expected the BLO basecoat to darken/further enhance the grain.

[Scott Holmes]

The surface with BLO will darken over time more than shellac only surface.