Format vs. Martin

[Glenn Ancona]

Greetings fellow woodworkers. 1st post here. Recent storm Irene ripped thru our shop and yard. We were lucky enough to get all of our machines out except the altendorfh slider it got wrecked. We went out and replaced it with a felder. They had a 900 series in the showroom in Delaware and we were back up cutting in no time. Must say I am impressed so far with the machine and I deal directly with them. Now that we are moving to a new larger shop we are wanting to step up to a 24 inch planer and are considering the following two machines. Have found a Martin t54 2006 model with 10 hp - 4 head cutter - two speed - very clean. Usage and hours uncertain, warranty none vs a new format 4 exact 63 same specs only new.would like to hear from users or friends of that have experience with and finish results. Comments are also welcome about resale should I or my family ever need to get out from under equipment some dayThanks in advance. Also have a 20 inch delta that will not be going to the new shop if any one is interested.Glenn

[David Kumm]

Glenn, I would go to the woodweb and felder group sites and ask the question as well. I have not spoken or posted with anyone who thought any machine was Martin's equal- at least in the Format line. Panhans and SCMI have almost as good reputations but generally not considered quite a Martin. I think Joe Calhoun of Alpine Woodworks may have some direct experience. Dave

[Peter Kelly]

That Martin has a spiral cutterhead doesn't it? I think the Felders all come with straight knives. Think the Martin might be the quieter machine too.

Can't go wrong with either!

[johnny means]

My previous shop was a co-op that had a BSN Format 4 Exacta 51 with Power Drive. It was a really nice machine and did what it was supposed to do with no problem. That is until it broke down less than a year into its career. Feed motor went bad. Turns out there was some sort of electrical mismatch in the machine. It took months to get a replacement and it didn't go smoothly. After that it was a great machine. Mind you, at the time felder was just starting to enter the field in top end machinery. I'm sure problems like ours were to be expected when expanding a product line.

That shop also had a new Kappa 40 which was plenty of saw but not quite a Martin. Though I can't see where there would be any practical difference in a real world application. Martins are pretty much overkill for anything.

Of course, if you're looking at the one that tilts both ways there is no comparison.

[Glenn Ancona]

Hey thanks guys - my response also left out the martin would be 5k more new than the Format if it was new. my aprehension is getting someones used machine and then having problems i.e. warranty. Are we talking about your porche is not as good as my ferrari here ? Now that I've had the felder 900 table saw, the claim about same price point altendorf is that much better seems to be just brand loyalty. Im a one man shop planning large 24 inch slabs wanting the digital acuracy with a great finish

Thanks again for the posts

[Stephen Cherry]

Of course, this discussion is a little atmosheric for me, with regard to the price point, but my impression wold be to decide what cutterhead you would want first, then get the machine based on that. I think that the martin and felder could both be tersa machines, which I have never used but have heard both good and bad about. (woodweb has discussions on this). I think that you can get the scmi with a byrd head.

[Thomas S Stockton]

Don't know about either machine but if you go on the Felder group at yahoo and read some of the posting the only thing that excites them more than felder equipment is the stuff from Martin. A friend has a Martin planer and it is one sweet machine, a fair amount of electronics under the hood. He loves it and it does a great job.
Tom

[David Kumm]

I think the byrd vs Tersa system is less relevant with these high end planers than it is for the every day versions most of us are used to. The quality of the machine eliminates many of the issues that concern us with straight knife technology. I think that is why the Martin was about the last to offer byrd heads. Dave

[Glenn Ancona]

Just to recap - these are two machines already built both with 4 tersa blade that are are straight. Anyone experiencing problems with year 2000 and newer martins. Same h.p the format has variable speed the Martin has high and low.Posts I have read in the past boast the quiet running and ready to finish with 180 grit with the Martin any experience with the format? Both with huge price as with scmi and easier to get service if a problemThanks Glenn

[Larry Edgerton]

Just for your consideration, I went to a show with the intention of buying a Martin, and I came home with a SCM. I do not even see the Format as being in the same class.

I have a Tersa head. I like it. Tersa knives and straight conventional knives are not in the same class either. A Tersa in a SCM/Martin will plane just as well as any machine with any head, and probably better.

Its been seven years, and the only problem that I have had is my dust boots an my jack screws are cracking.

This is in a commercial shop.

The SCM has 4 speeds, 16 fpm to 72 fpm, and you can shift on the fly. This is nice if you see that your pass has a dip that will require another pass. Simply shift to a higher gear to complete rather than stand there watching it plane at a lower speed. Saves time, the one thing you can't buy.

Larry

[Glenn Ancona]

thanks larry - leaning towards the martin. its a pretty sweet deal - glenn

[Charles Brown]

I think the byrd vs Tersa system is less relevant with these high end planers than it is for the every day versions most of us are used to. The quality of the machine eliminates many of the issues that concern us with straight knife technology. I think that is why the Martin was about the last to offer byrd heads. Dave

David, I completely agree. When you get into the big 2000#+ machines they leave a pretty nice surface on a majority of the boards that get thrown through it provided you show a little care with grain direction. At least, that's been my experience from working with them.

[J.R. Rutter]

I know that this may just be muddying the waters, but if you are planing slabs, have you looked at a planer / wide belt combo?

[Rick Fisher]

I'm surprised the used Martin is $5K more than the Felder 63.. The Felder 63 is pretty loaded up with options.. Isn't a new Martin about $30 K ? or are my numbers old ?

For what its worth, I doubt you would have complaints with any of the three machines.. Martin, Felder or SCM .. The SCM 630 invincible is a heck of a planer as well.. I believe its cheaper than the Felder...

Your comparing the top brands.

[J.R. Rutter]

I'm surprised the used Martin is $5K more than the Felder 63

I think he means new compared to new, the Martin is more, but it sounds like the used machine is less?

[David Kumm]

The only great planer missing on the list that is still made is the Northfield #7. Don't think the Tersa is available though. Dave

[Rick Fisher]

I think he means new compared to new, the Martin is more, but it sounds like the used machine is less?

Hmmm .... That makes sense :)

Regarding your comment about a planer / sander .. There is a fella in our town with a big Timesavers dual head sander with a helical head installed up front. The power requirements would be impressive ..

I always wondered if that set-up is meant to for hard core planing ? I think his is a 37" but might be a 43" ..

Could you just use it like a planer on a regular basis ? How would it handle short boards of say 12" ?

I have a tiny by comparison 25" Sander and recently sanded a bunch of 10" long pieces of cedar.. Every once in a while, one would not come out the other side.. lol I had a pile to do so would just put another in behind it ..

[Glenn Ancona]

Guys - The search is still on. Here are the numbers, New Felder 63 with straight 4 blade head, full digital with memory and variable speed delivered at 18,900. Found a 06 Martin with same 4 head with two speed good condition - no warranty 18,000 picked up 4hrs with truck. The SCM 630 I was quoted at 22,000. A friend waited months for parts for his SCM last year , nearly shut him down for a bit. Here is what we do - 1 1/2 man shop producing slab furniture and custom cabin funiture. Last stair project was 3 x 12 x 14 open stair stringers with 3 x 14 treads. These pieces tilt / move my current delta if I dont hold onto the wood till its centeredin the macine. The digital precision of both so we can jump between projects are are huge factor also the fact that service / dealer of both is within 4hrs if there is a major problem. Both indicate that short stock i.e my block treads and short bench and table pieces will not be a problem. Im leaning back to felder this morning as mentioned yesterday when I visited them in Delaware very impressed with the techs and the saw so far. Altendorfh didnt even contact me for several days about replacing my saw after the flood and actually glad they didnt- would not have made the trip to delaware. The 975 saw is everybit as well and my dado set up is so much easier to set up than the mighty Altendorfh If I were running slabs all day everyday a new Martin or SCM would be a consideration. but thats another 5k-- the 18k is already a stretch!! As mentioned I think brand loyalty is a major factor with owners at this level. Still have not heard from anyone disapointed with the exact 63 finish.The ability to add on the 4 ft. scissor extention table at a later time - a huge plus. Felder will even get me to shop of owner to test / sample boards to confirm -we will see. Glenn

[Stephen Cherry]

Guys - The search is still on. Here are the numbers, New Felder 63 with straight 4 blade head, full digital with memory and variable speed delivered at 18,900. Found a 06 Martin with same 4 head with two speed good condition - no warranty 18,000 picked up 4hrs with truck. The SCM 630 I was quoted at 22,000. A friend waited months for parts for his SCM last year , nearly shut him down for a bit. Here is what we do - 1 1/2 man shop producing slab furniture and custom cabin funiture. Last stair project was 3 x 12 x 14 open stair stringers with 3 x 14 treads. These pieces tilt / move my current delta if I dont hold onto the wood till its centeredin the macine. The digital precision of both so we can jump between projects are are huge factor also the fact that service / dealer of both is within 4hrs if there is a major problem. Both indicate that short stock i.e my block treads and short bench and table pieces will not be a problem. Im leaning back to felder this morning as mentioned yesterday when I visited them in Delaware very impressed with the techs and the saw so far. Altendorfh didnt even contact me for several days about replacing my saw after the flood and actually glad they didnt- would not have made the trip to delaware. The 975 saw is everybit as well and my dado set up is so much easier to set up than the mighty Altendorfh If I were running slabs all day everyday a new Martin or SCM would be a consideration. but thats another 5k-- the 18k is already a stretch!! As mentioned I think brand loyalty is a major factor with owners at this level. Still have not heard from anyone disapointed with the exact 63 finish.The ability to add on the 4 ft. scissor extention table at a later time - a huge plus. Felder will even get me to shop of owner to test / sample boards to confirm -we will see. Glenn

http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/452425.html

here is an add for scmi comparitive pricing. I have a felder k975 also, and have dealt with the group in Delaware. I would say that their customer service is exemplary.

[David Kumm]

I'm assuming you don't have room for two planers. Sounds like with the room you would be a candidate for a rough and a finish planer. You can buy the best used planers in the 6-9K range and not have any downtime worries. An old ITCH that you can run stuff all day and a tersa finish will the digital bells and whistles. The old planers don't have DRO but a proscale takes care of that. Even used SCMI 63 can be had for way less than 1/2 of what you are looking at. Room for them is the key. Dave

[Glenn Ancona]

Moving to a new 32 x 60 space from 32 x 32 two story12 height in new a plus. One new machine that does all the big stuff easy is the goal. The 2000lb machine is part of the process. Lots of great suggestions thxGlenn

[David Kumm]

Hey lucky Glen, with that much space you need at least 3000lb planer. Marlowe Mcgraw _ I think the last name is spelled wrong- has posted here. He sold a great old Alberti planer and bought a Martin. I'm sure he would have advice on the Martin if you PMd him. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

I don't have too much to add, the only Martin I've used is my 69' shaper and it is built like a tank. I have not used any Felder machines, but the one thing I'd say about the Martins....at least the old ones, is that they are built to last. I rebuilt mine just recently as it had been used, abused, and really beat to heck. I took her apart and the internal parts for raising and lowering look brand new, could not identify any wear at all! Same with the inside of the quill. I replaced the bearings some seals and did some other work, but I am still amazed at how well the rest of the machine held up after what looked like a pretty hard life.

My SCM planer is also an older (early to mid eighties I think) version. It is also beefy and a heck of a machine. I have heard some negative comments about their service also though. I personally inquired about my machine but as it's much older they didn't have much help for me.

It sounds like your output is pretty low/moderate so I think you would likely be happy with any of the machines mentioned here. $18k is a lot to spend on a machine so I might lean towards new myself. Then again for $18k I would likely buy several used machines and use the rest to take the family on a nice vacation:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Rick Fisher]

I think once your at the Martin, Felder, SCM level, customer service is a great way to make the choice.

Perhaps you should investigate parts availability as opposed to machine qualifications.

On that Felder 63, what knife are they using ? They have their own Felder cutter-block and offer the Tersa for a bit more money.. The Felder looked like it would take a bit longer to change .. but more importantly, your availability of replacement edges is more limited.

I have a Griggio Jointer with a Tersa head and can get Tersa knives from all over the place..

When you pay $20K for a planer, its not reasonable to wait months for parts.. if the company makes the parts, they should be made when you need them.. In Canada, SCM had distributors for their tools.. The West Coast Distributor was Eurotech .. I had parts on order with them for an older SCM Bandsaw for what seemed forever.. The service from them was terrible.. I have a friend in the US who has access to Parts Pronto, the SCM parts website. My parts where in stock in Atlanta Georgia and I had been waiting over a month.. Eurotech was waiting for more parts orders and getting them from Europe .. sigh..

So in frustration, I emailed ( politely) a couple of exec's listed on the SCM USA website, basically begging them to sell me the parts.. At that time, they would not ship parts to Canada, you had to go through a distributor. It didn't happen..

Today its a different set-up.. North America is all one company and they recognize that it was a crazy system.. Eurotech went bankrupt and SCM deals direct in Canada.

My next purchase was a jointer and I went Griggio in my own silent protest to SCM.. Its been a great machine.. heavily built an lots of power.

When I was at the Vegas woodworking show, I was looking at a Felder Planer and being helped by a middle aged man with a strong Austrian accent.. He was amazing.. he knew every detail.. I asked questions about the rise fall and he started taking panels off the machine.. next thing I know, we are on the floor looking up .. lol

Turned out he was Mr Felder.. The fella who owns the company.. I do not think he would knowingly make you wait 2 months for anything.. he seemed very passionate about the machinery.. So .. I would probably buy Felder because I trust that fella to keep me in business with service.. Having said that, employees can be employees.. lol The machine if memory serves is 2600 lbs? Same quality big motors and the engineering seems excellent.. but more importantly, if you have a problem, you could call that fella and he would take it personally IMO..

[Joe Calhoon]

Glenn,
I have a Martin planer about 2003 vintage, similar to what you are looking at. Along with other Martin machines we have a Felder Profil shaper. My opinion is that you cannot compare Felder machines to Martin. The Felder shaper cost 1/2 what the Martin T26 cost. It is a good value for what it can do but cannot hold a candle to the Martin shaper. I think the divide between the two planers is not as great as the shapers but the price reflects that. For me it would be a no brainer to go for the used T54. The only thing we need to replace after 8 years is the rubber feed rolls on ours.

Traditionally Martins have always had a good resale value. Used to be they hardly ever came up used but a few of them on the market now. Martin service is good and fast and my experience with Felder has been good also. The Felder owners group is a great source of support and entertainment with a lot of Martin owners there also.

What you need to do is get under the hood of each one. compare the weight, size of the bearings, diameter of the cutter head, quality of electronic components ETC. Then watch each one working and compare for noise, vibration and digital accuracy across the width.

Dave K mentioned Northfield. Those are stout machines as well. A local shop here has a Northfield for rough planing recycled wood and a Martin for finish planing of new wood. Rubber roll machines are not good if you do a large amount of rough planing.

Hope this helps,

Joe

[Glenn Ancona]

WOW - a great forum and wealth of opinions and ideas !
My thoughts are to spend the day this week and drive to see both machines in action bring some slabs and see. The tersa head in the martin appears to be just a straight 4 knife head ? The felder i'm going to see has their non tersa head - sure one can be added for another grand. This martin also has the built in 4ft extention table attached that would also add another grand + with Felder - I'm hoping the extention table can take my weight or at least some of it. That makes the martin almost 7 ft long. The resale aspect and cult like following of the martin leads me to believe that if I ever retire or cant work that I could get out more of what I've got into it. However, I have yet to even see a used 24 inch Felder for sale ?
With regards to two speed vs variable speed ? Never been on one before so not sure I would need it.
If the Martin is as lightly used as it is described that will probably win out. Both seem to have fantastic support. The Martin lists the db rating and the Felder does not. Need to get my hands,eyes and ears on both. Will report back. glenn

[David Kumm]

Glenn, the tersa is a big improvement over the Felder head which is basically the Esta system. In my opinion the Esta is great for shorter blades and less so as the length increases. You really need to keep any gunk out of the cutterhead or the knive cartridge can get out of whack. The tersa is truly a quick change. I would not spend that kind of money and not get tersa. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

Glenn, the tersa is a big improvement over the Felder head which is basically the Esta system. In my opinion the Esta is great for shorter blades and less so as the length increases. You really need to keep any gunk out of the cutterhead or the knive cartridge can get out of whack. The tersa is truly a quick change. I would not spend that kind of money and not get tersa. Dave

Also, part of the reason that the SCM/Martins are so quiet is the Tersa head. There is very little space for air to get compressed and decompressed, and that is the reason that the old iron screams. When mine is running my phase converter is louder. Four knives can be changed in two minutes once the cover is open. Blade shifts just a bit faster.

That being said, I am looking for a rough planer with a byrd head. The Tersa head will handle the job but I would like to take a cleanup pass with carbide first.

Larry

[Rick Fisher]

Larry, you can get Tersa Carbide knives for the 630 for about $200.00. I have a Tersa Jointer and wont use Carbide knives because ... they are too expensive to chip. I use the M42 knives, they are more rugged than the HSS .. a bit more expensive, but if I chip one, I don't freak out.. Of course the great thing about Tersa knives is if you do chip them, you can just wiggle them around so the chips don't line up anymore.

My jointer is a Griggio and planer is a General International with a Helical Head.. The Jointer is so much more capable of milling rough wood that I remove the rough side x 4 before hitting the planer. Its staggering how much material the Jointer will remove in a single pass compared to the planer.

If squaring up stock, I usually joint it down close and make the final couple passes on the planer now.. If I had a planer like yours.. it would be a different story.. lol

[Larry Edgerton]

Rick, not sure where you get your knives, but I have been buying them from Global Tool and Supply right out in your neighborhood. Best pricing, and great service and Genuine Tersa knives, not clones.

My planer will take off up to 1/4" before it sticks, and runs up to 72 FPM, so I do my stock prep a bit different. . Of course if I had your Jointer........

That was one of the things I hated about my old PM, it would not deal with varying thicknesses very well. I rely more on the planer. As long as the waves in the board are short the planer will take care of them. I run either two or four passes, one or two on each side depending on the board at 72fpm, then back down to 16 fpm for the final passes. Works well because of the size of the tables on the planer. If the board has a big bend or is twisted I use the jointer first.

Larry

Ok, it just sunk in that you said I can get Tersa's in carbide for $200? I'm paying $100 for M42's. This is a four knife head. Are you talking two knives? If not, where do "you" buy your knives?

[Rick Fisher]

Its $200 approx.. per knife.. Yeah.. $800 for a set.. (you may wanna shop around a bit on that one )

Larry, its funny.. when you have a decent Euro Planer or Jointer, matched to a cheaper Asian Planer or Jointer.. The European machine really makes its Asian partner look crappy..

My General International planer doesn't deal with much well.. its finicky about what gets planed.. Planing multiples of small stock is painful, and unless the bed is freshly waxed and polished, which it never is.. wood sticks or stops and starts during the planing process, leaving cutter-head marks in the surface.. Okay, Rant-off .. lol

I get my knives from a company in British Columbia called " Tersa Knife Inc " .. (clever name) .. A 630mm M-42 Knife is $26.00 or about $104.00 a set ..

What is it about Rough lumber that you don't like putting it through your beastly planer ?

[Larry Edgerton]

Dang Rick! You are an early riser!

I would like to have two planers running in opposite directions so I could drag the rough stock through the inferior planer first to get all the dirt the neanderthals at the mill get in the rough stock first, then finish with the Tersa head. The only bad point of the Tersa head is the cost of knives if you run into some dirty stock. I had one of those old giant PMs, but the head broke loose while planing Jatoba and screwed it all up. Wish I had kept it and patched it up for this purpose. I often run two or three machines at one time when I am roughing stock. I have a powerfeed on the jointer and the tablesaw, and the planer of course. I'm not sure I could master 4 at one time.....?????

$200 a knife is about the same as Global, and the M42 price is exactly the same.

[Glenn Ancona]

Going with the Felder !!The used martin ended up having rubber rollers and no table bed rollers on the bottom -these being key for the rough timbers as well as my wet woods. Felder is going to spec it as I want. Even came back offering additional discounts. The last item to be decided is the head. They are claiming a tighter tolerence with their blade system and the same db. as the tersa and finish. The New planer will hopefully arrive in febuary a month after the new shop is complete. Will post a report - glenn

[Stephen Cherry]

Going with the Felder !!

If you get down to Deleware, don't fortet to get a burger at Charcoal pit on Concord pike, plus a shake.

http://charcoalpit.net/

[Rick Fisher]

Glen, I think the Felder is a great choice, but would strongly consider the Tersa head.. Its so simple to buy blades.. You can shop around and buy them from 100 different sites.. Resale is probably better with Tersa as well. If nothing else, check the cost of the blades against the prices Larry is paying, and check what qualities of steel are available.

The blades Larry and I use in Tersa, the M42 are about $104 for a set of 4 for your machine. In HSS they would be around $94.00

One question on the Felder cutterblock is can the knife be adjusted ? I have no idea.. A tersa slides into the head, you can slide it right out the other side if you wish.. I have a 4 knife tersa head, if I chip new knives with say a staple when the knives are new, I simply loosen a couple of blades and slide them over 1mm .. The nick is gone..

[Simon Dupay]

Have you looked at a Northfield? Their way better built then eruo planers (not to say their bad planers) and around the same price range.

[Larry Edgerton]

I agree with Rick on the ability to shop blades wherever you choose. Also the cost of Tersas has dropped considerably since I bought my machine and there are now so many more of these heads out there.

To be clear, there is absolutely no adjustment with a tersa. To change a knife on my planer I tap four jibs with a block of wood and a hammer, slide out the old knife, slide in the new. When you turn the machine on it resets the knives. Simple.

I question Felders claim that it is more accurate. Mine is perfect every time. I check it, less now than when it was new, but every time it is exactly what I have on the indicator, with zero error. Its hard to be more accurate than perfect.

Larry

[Jeff Duncan]

OK after reading Rick and Larry's posts about Euro vs Asian jointers and planers, I figure I'll throw out my experience on the subject. Several years ago I purchased a brandy spanking new Bridgewood 20" planer for just shy of $4k. It had the insert cutter head, 5 hp Baldor motor, variable speed etc etc....I figured I'd retire with that planer. It produced a very nice cut and was quiet as promised, but I found I really couldn't take a big bite in hardwoods without it bogging down. If I tried to take say a 16th off on a close to full width pass in maple it couldn't do it. I tripped the internal breaker on several occasions and so was a bit disappointed with it's performance. Less than a year passed and a local cabinet maker retired. I went to look at a shaper, which I bought, and he offered me a great price on his SCMI 20" planer. Now I didn't need it, but something in my head kept saying to get it. So I called him several days later and bought the planer. The difference in performance was night and day. It can plane maple like butter and not bog in the least. It has a 4 knife cutter head which was at least an inch bigger in diameter than the Bridgewood. It was so much heavier in every regard that it's not really a fair comparison.

My favorite part of the machine though is the on board knife grinder. Now I'm sure it's not nearly as fast as replacing Tersa knives, but I can do a quick pass on all 4 knives in well under 10 minutes. A full re-set, grind, and table wax less than 1/2 hour. And b/c I only grind just enough to refresh the edges, the same set of HSS knives will likely last me many years to come. I like the idea of the Tersa type systems, except for having to buy new knives all the time. I guess it comes down to whether you have enough production to compensate for the cost of the knives?

As for jointers, I have an older Italian model that I have to be careful with. It lost it's depth of cut scale long ago, and if I'm not paying attention it'll cut a 1/4" in a pass without a problem!

Anyway that's my experience for whatever it's worth. I think the Felder will be a very nice machine and I'd imagine you'll get a lot of use out of it over the years.

good luck,
JeffD

[Greg Portland]

Guys - The search is still on. Here are the numbers, New Felder 63 with straight 4 blade head, full digital with memory and variable speed delivered at 18,900. Found a 06 Martin with same 4 head with two speed good condition - no warranty 18,000 picked up 4hrs with truck. The SCM 630 I was quoted at 22,000. A friend waited months for parts for his SCM last year , nearly shut him down for a bit. Here is what we do - 1 1/2 man shop producing slab furniture and custom cabin funiture. Last stair project was 3 x 12 x 14 open stair stringers with 3 x 14 treads. These pieces tilt / move my current delta if I dont hold onto the wood till its centeredin the macine. The digital precision of both so we can jump between projects are are huge factor also the fact that service / dealer of both is within 4hrs if there is a major problem. Both indicate that short stock i.e my block treads and short bench and table pieces will not be a problem. Im leaning back to felder this morning as mentioned yesterday when I visited them in Delaware very impressed with the techs and the saw so far. Altendorfh didnt even contact me for several days about replacing my saw after the flood and actually glad they didnt- would not have made the trip to delaware. The 975 saw is everybit as well and my dado set up is so much easier to set up than the mighty Altendorfh If I were running slabs all day everyday a new Martin or SCM would be a consideration. but thats another 5k-- the 18k is already a stretch!! As mentioned I think brand loyalty is a major factor with owners at this level. Still have not heard from anyone disapointed with the exact 63 finish.The ability to add on the 4 ft. scissor extention table at a later time - a huge plus. Felder will even get me to shop of owner to test / sample boards to confirm -we will see. GlennHi Glenn. At this price point I would be more concerned about dealer service & how quickly a problem can be corrected. All the machines are going to cut wood when they're working. How quickly can things get fixed when there is a problem? It sounds like you've got a good relationship with Felder/Format; IMO you made the right business decision (regardless of the merits of the different machines).

[Glenn Ancona]

With the last call to felder / format i was put thru to the ceo to answer all questions and reservations i had.We chatted for 15 - 20 minutes regarding my add on's and removals on the machines build. The response regarding finish and settings were what i needed to hear. I will be testing and dialing in the machine fully adjusted and trained by the techs that delivered the new slider earlier this year. By the way that costs $ 750 with martin. The fact that I am also a returning customer, they discounted the machine further. I feel confident that their machine will be as good as their customer service. If not they are the nearest of the importers / dealers I was considering. Question to those who have responded - how often are you changing your blades in footage run or weeks or months ?maybe i will pick up two extra sets of blades when i go. Glenn

[Rick Fisher]

Hey Glen.. Great choice..

I am just a hobby woodworker and change my blades about every 4 months.. Much of it seems to depend on the wood I am cutting.. I went though a bunch of maple last summer and wore out the blades in about 6 weeks. I change them too early, no question, my saw blade guy tells me that I sharpen sooner than most as well..

The M-42 knives last longer than the cheaper Tersa knives..
I have a set of new blades in a drawer, when I install the first edges of the new blades, I will order another set and store them in the same spot..

The Tersa system is pretty cool. you need a mallet and a wedge to change all the cutters.. (once a bandaid was involved) .. Knock the gib down and slide the knife out.. flip it over and slide it back in.. As Larry said, when all the knives are flipped, you turn the machine on and it sets the knife.. Kinda spooky the first time .. lol

One thing with my jointer is that it has an electromagnetic brake installed in the motor. When the power is off, you cannot move the cutterhead. So you have to hit a knob that allows you to turn the power on, but not engage the motor, then hit the on switch .. Its a bit creepy but without the power on, you cant roll the cutterhead by hand..

[Paul Grothouse]

My 2 cents, and I am probably the only one on this board who has owned both.

Purchasing a Format 4 is one of the worst business decisions I ever made. It is a boat anchor compared to the Martin. After the sale service also, well frankly SUCKS. We had tech service from Felder in and they make every problem worse, on mulitple visits.

Run, Run, Run away from Felder.

Martin can be a little tough to deal with up front, they are very German, but the product is incomparable. You are in NY, I highly recommend you work through their dealer Simatech, I will list his contact information. He delivered and rigged my saw, which is very large, for no extra charge. He is awesome, here is his info.

Ed Papa
Simantech Inc
1-800-489-6694
http://www.simantechinc.com
(http://www.simantechinc.com/)simantec@optonline.net

[Rick Fisher]

I have to assume that Paul's assessment of Felder is based on personal experience gone awry.. It has not been the opinion of many owners.

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul,You are not the only Martin - Felder owner. Read my post #25. There is no comparison between the two. I gave Glen some things he should look at that would be just a few reasons why.Three of my Martins were commissioned in shop by Stefan Benkart, the jointer and planer arrived in perfect working order and needed no commissioning. They are still in perfect calibration after 10 years. I never heard of the 800 dollar fee for this. I spent 3 1/2 days adjusting the Felder after it arrived. I think he is getting all his info about Martin from the Felder sales people. I had to laugh when they told him the Esta type knives will work as well as Tersa. I had those in a SCM planer...

I tried to sell the Profil shaper after we got it with no luck and finally came up with a few things in the shop it worked for. Felder did make good efforts to correct everything wrong with mine so I think their service effort is better than some importers. They just don't have that much to work with.

For quality of Euro standard woodworking machines I would rank Martin high followed heavy Italian - SCM , Griggio and SAC. Felder and MiniMax would be in the next category after these and a good choice for home woodworkers. IMHO. Felder is trying to break into the pro machines with the Format line and may succeed but they have a ways to go.

Joe

[Brad Shipton]

Joe, it is interesting to see you rank Griggio and SAC above the Felder. Have you had a chance to view the new lower end lines Martin is offering? I probably can never afford a real Martin like I want, so I was wondering if they made many improvements to the import versions.

Brad

[David Kumm]

Brad, I know Martin made some changes to the rebadged Griggios but have not heard how substantive they are. Probably the biggest difference is the dealer support. I've always wondered why Griggio - or Panhans for that matter- don't have more presence here. Griggio makes a nice looking saw shaper that should compete with Felder and MM. Dave

[Bram Couttouw]

if i could choose between the 3 brands, i would definitely choose for the Martin planer. I'm using the martin planer at school for 2 years now and i'm still impressed how smooth, accurate and precise the machine planes. It's build to last (seriously, it's a beast). To minimise the vibrations, the manufacturors pour concrete in it.
The planer at school has a digital read-out that is precise to 1/10 of a millimeter (which is impressive). After years of working, the rubber infeed rollers were damaged (hey! it's rubber, not steel), but that's probably the only complain about the machine i have. Recently i had to plane some 6 mm Jatoba down to 4 mm. Again, that was a piece of cake: Very smooth, no tearout, no snipe... simply perfect.
Past week, me and my friend were planing some douglas (which is very, very soft) and we were both impressed of the quality of the surface. It was so smooth that you probably could go straight from planer to finishing room without sanding. Me and my buddy compared the machine with an old (but very good) planer and the results were clear: the old planer tore out the fibers a bit, the martin made it glass smooth.
The martin planer at school has a 4 or 2 (i don't remember anymore) straight knifes Tersa cutter head (not 4 or 2 cutter heads, just 1 with 4 or 2 knives :)), which makes changing knives a piece of cake.
You couldn't get a smoother surface with a spiral cutter head. That martin planer is just awesome.
The planer at school has 2 feed speeds: 6 and 12 meters/sec.
Oh, BTW, that planer is so quiet that you can't hear it when the machine is turned on or off. Working without ear protection is possible without hearing damage.

Bram

[Peter Kelly]

I think Panhans were close to folding before being taken over or bought by Schelling last year. Could never understand their lack of presence either, they're nice machines. I've owned a few pieces by Griggio myself and liked them a lot. Like their deal with Martin, it seems that much of what they've sold in the US seems to have been re-badged as Holzher, Sicma, Magic, etc. Never quite got that mentality either. The Griggio combination machines that I've seen at the shows are much nicer than MM or Robland.

Just comes down to marketing I guess.

[Aaron Hancock]

Glen, can't offer you any advice, but I do however believe I helped much out your basement. I mostly spent the day with your sons, but if I remember right you helped find me a pair of gloves. Whether it was you or not, hope things are returning to some sense of normalcy in your corner of the world and I'm glad to here your getting back on your feet.

[Rick Fisher]

I have a Griggio 12" Jointer.. The best way to describe it is a simple, overbuilt, rugged machine.. The fence is 54" long and 7" high .. bigger than the beds on a Delta X 6" jointer.. Most of the other Euro machines are finely milled aluminum, easier to adjust etc.. The fence on my Griggio is cast Iron.. Its so heavy I had to get a buddy to come over to help me install it .. The bed movement is a plain single arm but its really smooth.. The machine weighs about 1100 lbs.. Its a funny machine.. the castings on the inside are not really that smooth, but they are all double or triple the size they could be .. Its like they figured they where gonna sell the jointer by the pound.. lol

Many of the European machines are not made by the company that badges them .. Griggio buys its edge sander from ACM, its the same machine as Felder, except Felder offers the 150 and Griggio offers both the 150mm and the 200mm. Griggio sells bandsaws and wide belt sanders, again made by others.. The machines Martin is selling like the mortiser are made by Griggio and some of their best offerings.

IMO.. Martin is #1 .. they are the top of the heap for quality and design, but they are also the most expensive.. Felder shapers are actually quite cheap compared to Martin or SCM .. hearing that they are not in the same ball park makes perfect sense if you believe you get what you pay for .. Each tool has to be evaluated by its own merits..

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, it is interesting to see you rank Griggio and SAC above the Felder. Have you had a chance to view the new lower end lines Martin is offering? I probably can never afford a real Martin like I want, so I was wondering if they made many improvements to the import versions.

Brad
Hi Brad,I looked at the Martin - Griggio shaper at the show in Vegas. They had the Martin fence fitted to it and a couple other things. I ran the tilt - up and down and looked under the hood. Looks stout underneath compared to the Profile. I think about $4K more and tilts both ways. Hard to tell about any of these machines till you get a few hours in. One big advantage would be getting Martin service.

Griggio machines made in Italy are decent, their lower end line is Asian import. They rebadge a lot of machines and make a lot of machines for other mfgs. My Colombo tenoner is in the Griggio catalogue.

A lot of late model used Martins popping up, keep your eyes open.

Joe

[Glenn Ancona]

Thanks paul, rick and joe

Sounds like real world experience with felder and martin.
Paul sent you a PM. Glad I didnt stop by to buy your format slider on the way to delaware. You sound very unhappy with their product. Yes I have got alot of info from felder but the $ 770 charge from Martin for training / set up comes right from their current price sheet. This whole search started at around 15k and creeped to 18 and now heading to 20. Think I will put on the brakes research and wait to see what comes up used that is exactly what I need at the price I started at.

[Rick Fisher]

I was thinking of this thread today and it made me kinda laugh..

Martin, Felder, SCM and Griggio .. probably the top 4 modern machines made .. Another poster made a suggestion that the OP should look at Northfield.. That made me think..

A planer is a machine that primarily makes wood thinner, and parallel to the other face.. I have seen planers that run off steam engines.. meaning that its not really new technology.. Its likely that the Northfield is an amazing machine as well, but it looks 40 years old.. Even if it is a 40 year old design.. its likely an amazing machine..

And that is the point of my post..

The Martin, SCM, Griggio and Felder are all pretty new designs.. Unlike their Asian counterparts, they don't seem as obsessed with making a machine cheaper, rather they seem to want to make the better one of the bunch.. Felder will tell you that their machine is better, Martin will say the same.. SCM has sold a bazillion of them so its likely they worked the kinks out a while back.. And Griggio.. well.. its just a really fun word to say ..

So for a machine that makes wood thinner, and parallel, its a raging debate.. Many would assume that while Northfield designed one 40 years ago that is still excellent today, many of these really expensive European companies haven't quite figured it out yet.. ???

If we where talking about a machine that took poplar in one side and spit out Cocobolo.. I would be very concerned.. but we are talking about a principle that was started 100 years ago, and people still run planers off tractor motors today.. You can buy a planer for $199.00 today and it will actually make wood thinner and parallel.. So could it be that the 4 European companies have actually figured out how to build a heck of a planer by 2011 ?

I believe that what is really important in buying one of these machines is service.. Each company will spin you on how their service is the best .. so you pretty much gotta prove it to yourself..

I tried to think of what part on these machines is common to wear out.. Came up blank because reality is that you just never hear about 2500 lb Euro planers getting recall notices.. but I wonder.. if you called Martin, Felder, SCM and asked if they had a certain part in stock, what would they say ? Could they get it to you in 48 hours ?
If you call the service department .. will they call you back ? If you called the President of Felder, Martin or SCM .. would they return your call, after-all, these fellas sell machinery, that's it .. they aren't running a country ..

I would ignore all the brand loyalty .. buy a machine based on value, options and real after sales service.. I would do so under the assumption that after 100 years, companies in Germany, Austria and Italy could probably have the concept of making wood thinner and parallel figured out well enough to build a machine to do it..

[David Kumm]

Rick, I don't think there have been many design changes in planers for over 50 years. The old ones had cast iron bases and powered bed rollers driven by a separate motor with the feed rollers, but other than powered beds and electronics there are few differences. Those of us with old planers, mine is an Oliver 299 ITCH, look for broken springs in the chipbreakers and pressure bars, good bearings, and believe it or not wear in the middle segments of the chipbreakers. Old planers went for years for multiple shift nonstop so wear areas developed and the hard core OWWM guys can tell you the design quirks and flaws of all the old planers. I think it is quality of materials rather than innovation that separates the herd here. It would be interesting to hear from people who were familiar with the old Euro stuff. It is fun to listen to the guys who ran the old Whitney and Buss planers here in the US. At the end of the day understanding what makes quality adds to knowledge even if not obtainable. Used presents a great opportunity though. My Oliver was 35 years old but still had the paint on the chipbreakers so after some cleanup and bearing work I had a $30,000 planer for $6K. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

Rick that is true.
Planers are really pretty simple machines and Glen will not go wrong with any of them. He needs to find what fits his budget and needs. I feel bad about going off on Felder in my second post, they really do have good service and are trying to hit the price and quality points of all woodworkers. The Martin is a great shaper compared to the Format but at 2 to 2 1/2 times the cost it should be.

It is a tough market for high end machine makers right now with the slow economy, cheap imports from the East and a flood of used equipment on the market. I think the service orientated companies will be the survivors of this.

Joe

[Rick Fisher]

The old high end machinery is a testament to what IMO your buying today. An old Oliver 299 was probably 2500 lbs .. maybe more ? The castings on your old 299 are 35 years old and still strong .. that is a testament to high quality cast iron..

Thing is that technology on steel and cast has actually gotten better in the last 35 years. SCM Group does castings for companies like Ferrari and bullet train parts.. That is not your typical cheap cast iron.. They are one of the global leaders in the foundry business.. its likely that if they pour a table for an E630 Planer .. they can probably do it even better than Oliver did it 35 years ago..

Even if they can, but don't .. does it really matter ? Felder makes its own motor sheaves and pulleys to avoid vibration problems.. I bet they could buy them cheaper in China, yet they don't. None of these guys are trying to pump out the cheapest machine possible.. My Griggio Jointer has a CEG motor made in Italy.. My General International planer's motor is made by the Zxanduihaboohaha company in Chowmein Taiwan..

I am willing to bet you could buy any of the 4 planers, run them hard for 8 hours a day and each of them would shock you in how they held up..

As a Canadian, I get fed up with companies charging us more because we are Canadian.. SCM is now dealing with Canadians on the same page as American's.. As such, I would look hard at SCM .. I can see paying a premium for a second rubber roller or even paying for the cost of CSA approval, but I won't be paying $3000 (or more if its Martin) simply for being a Canuck..

On the shapers, I would probably buy the new SCM with the Electro spindle used in CNC... It can be slowed to almost nothing without overheating.. I think SCM is top dawg right now until Martin and Felder catch up ..

If I where the OP .. I would ask myself who will jump into action if I have a problem.. buy it from them..

[David Kumm]

Good points, Rick. I tend to think of the 1950s as the golden age of iron casting but that is probably not fair. I know there is a mehanite numbering system for types and quality of iron but don't know how it is relevant in the woodwroking world. Table grinding is probably as important now. Some Euro and some old machines had scraped tables. That was a cold process as I understand it. I do know it is a benefit with old stuff in that it is much easier to see the wear patterns on scraped tables. My Porter 300 jointer is the only machine I've seen where the tables are scraped in both directions. The working benefit is that it is like playing air hockey as the friction is so low. Advances in the use of steel is more apparent. Felder folds its steel rather than welding. Says it is stronger and probably cheaper as well. SCM talks about stabilizing their steel and Martin uses a process that goes way beyond adding concrete. Knapp did their welding under water to reduce stress but I have no clue how big a deal that was. I suspect value engineering is creeping into the Euro world as well. When Felder went from the 7 series to the 700 in 2000 the machines got lighter. Some cost cutting in all machines is evident although whether it affects overall quality can be debated. It's great that there is still enough high end market out there to support these companies. I fear the day will come when we remember the good old machines that were produced in Taiwan. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Only thing I can add is I have talked to the President of Martin in the US office, and he was great to deal with. Dan the technician was also very helpful. Parts availability of course depends on the part. If it's in stock they'll ship it right out. If it's for a 40+ year old machine like my shaper, then you may have to wait for it to ship from Germany:( They did have my bearings in stock at the time though, and a few other odds and ends.

I will say I find it funny that Northfield has not changed their design much in the last 50 years. I don't know if that's good or bad? Maybe if something's not broke??? I do know personally I prefer the modern cabinet style shapers, and so for me going from a 40 year old Martin to a Northfield would be a step back. Not sure about planers though? Does Northfield offer a motorized table raise? If not I'd stick with my SCM.

JeffD

[David Kumm]

Northfield is a really small company with no real R and D dept. They make the stuff they have always made and make improvements and refinements but don't have the ability to revamp their line. Call Jeff at Northfield and talk to him. It is always interesting. Same thing with Rich at Oliver. Dave

[Andrew Joiner]

I am willing to bet you could buy any of the 4 planers, run them hard for 8 hours a day and each of them would shock you in how they held up..



Maybe a woodworking magazine will do a tool test soon!

Seriously, I've been reading this thread and this one http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?175915-bwahaha-SCM-jointer-inbound&daysprune=-1 with envy.

It's great to know that custom woodworkers can afford machines of such high quality these days.

I'd be honored to even touch one of these machines.

[David Kumm]

Andrew, that is the beauty of used. You can get a great Powermatic 160,180,221 for between $1 and 2K. My Porter jointer 16" was $2500 from a dealer so great quality is available for a cheap price. You do have to educate yourself on machines, phase converters etc but well worth the effort. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Ditto what David said, my 40 year old Martin shaper cost me $1k plus another $2k+ to fully rebuild her. There is nothing on the market under $5k that comes close, and frankly probably not even under $10k. My SCM planer, EMA jointer, Timesaver wide belt....all bought used for a fraction of the new cost.

In my opinion the most expensive tools you can buy are inferior quality import tools. I started out buying new stuff and in some ways am still paying for it. The older industrial stuff holds up amazingly well and is hard to kill. I use my equipment to make a living though, so I have a different perspective from someone doing stuff as a hobby.

I have to say I've also enjoyed these threads as you don't see a lot of conversation on these high end machines. It's nice to be able to learn a little something about them.

JeffD

[John Paul Cummings]

I have been reading this thread and feel I need to mention a few things. I was a owner of a cabinet shop a few years ago and had a full range of industrial machines including most of the brands that have been mentioned in this thread. I do not have a single bad thing to say about any of them. I do however feel I need to stick up a little for the Felder Group. A couple of month ago I wanted to buy some machines for my retirement hobby shop and talked to various companies including Felder. After what I am sure Felder perceived as a painful shopping experience life through me a few curve balls and I was not able to buy anything. Due to my history in bigger shops I did however look at everything they have, I did not want to buy something to small that would frustrate me because I was use to the big stuff in the past and I also needed to get an idea of the prices. Felder had a few clear lines, the Hammer, Felder 500, Felder 700, Felder 900 and Format 4. The 700 series is amazing for a serious hobbyist or a business. This is also their best known range of machines as they make the combination machines they are so well known for in this range. My problem is that Felder is Grouped together as one machine line and then compared to various competitors. Comparing a 700 series Felder to a high end industrial machine for 3 times the price is simply not fair. The Felder Group has however stepped up with the Felder 900 and Format 4 range to offer an refined industrial European machine at a reasonable price. They have a few models in the Format 4 range that take an even bigger step forward in features and construction. The Format -4 Kappa 550 sliding table panel saw and the Exact 63 (24") wide planer are some examples of those machines. These machine along with the bigger CNC machines, edging machines and Widebelt sanders they offer can compete with any of the REAL TOP END brands. The problem is that each of those brands also have different lines but are sometimes represented as one not allowing for a clear *differentiation in features. Felder talked very honestly about their service issues in the past when I was looking to buy from them. All machines have technical issues from time to time and to support your customers is often costly for a company and when the wrong management team make bad decisions it will create unhappy customers. In the US Felder had a complete management change about 2 years ago because of that exact reason. Again I like all these machines but each brand requires a little more in depth research to understand what is what and compare fairly. When is was doing my homework I did talk to a few Felder owners, business and hobby users. They only had good things to say about the New Felder in the US. With their very thick range of products they do require some close consideration. Happy Thanksgiving.

[David Kumm]

John makes valid points. Apples to apples. It is really important to do the homework. MM makes the elite and the elite s series that are different. Felder makes all the ranges John mentions and each range is a blend of parts from other series. There is even one 500 series that uses the 700 trunnion rather than the Hammer internals. Scmi makes three different ranges and it is hard to tell them apart. They are all good machines within their price ranges but the buyer needs to know more than he will be told by any single person. It is difficult to know what competes with each other. Does elite and elite s compete with the 500 and 700 or the 700 and 900 respectively. The T110 shaper is a Nova series and the T130 is a Class series. Like studying for an exam. Dave

[Glenn Ancona]

Happy thanksgiving fellow woodworkers. A very busy week here and lots of decisions. We closed on a new piece of property for our shop on Tues.( much higher ground ) should never have to worry about a flood again. Knocked down the old structure on Wed / Thur - yes thanksgiving , I know and Fri. I signed on the Format4 planer! Won't bore you all with all the points that led to it but its a done deal. Ordered it with the 10hp, bed rollers and yes the tersa head. Ultimatly a big part of the decision was the fact after the flood I got a chance to visit Felder in Delaware, due to a third party shipping problem that felder took care of and went above and beyond to insure my satsifaction. I was unaware of the management change but the staff is well trained and the warehouse well stocked. The 975 saw has been operational for several months now and find it a delight to use and a step above the Altendorfh it replaced at the same price point. Yes it seems all manufactures have differnt price points along the way. Its not the Kappa 550 nor a full blown Elmo or martin but the dollar to value aspect is exceptional. Our woodworking shop is part of our family buisness. It is by no way a over tooled spousal avoidence center. I dont have the time or the wish to purchase orlder equipment and tinker to get the results I need. I want to turn it on , set it and run my product and move on to something else. We were running flat out before Tropical storm Irene and with part of our buisness being dumpsters and portable storage, well you can only imagine. I can only hope the weather here in the Northeast stays mild so the new shop is complete before the machine arrives. Thanks for all the coments, PMs and feedback - back to work here -Glenn

[Jeff Duncan]

"It is by no way a over tooled spousal avoidance center".
-Glenn

I like it, that's got to be the line of the week!

Congrats on your new purchase.....and shop!

JeffD

[Greg Portland]

Glenn, please update us with impressions and pictures once it arrives (and assuming you have time!). Thanks!

[Joe Jensen]

It is by no way a over tooled spousal avoidence center. -Glenn

Hey, I resemble that :)

[Glenn Ancona]

Joe,
Nice to read your post about the factory tour on the Felder owners group site - put me at ease with purchase and got me planing a trip to Insbrook for my next ski trip :D and a tour. Enjoyed the article.