Which is the better method - Hollow Chisel Mortiser or Leigh FMT Pro for MT Joints

[Alan Lightstone]

As the title says. I'm getting more serious with my furniture building. Not happy with the Drill Press/chisel and Tenoning jig option for mortise/tenon joinery.

I'm been debating either getting a Hollow Chisel Mortiser, (something like the Powermatic PM701) or buying the Leigh FMT Pro and using a router.

What do people think?

[Jamie Buxton]

Neither. A plunge router does a fine job of mortising. Unlike the other two, it is also useful for many other things too.

[Nasar Azam]

Dowelmax does it the easy way !

[Rod Sheridan]

I use a hollow chisel mortiser.

I've also used a slot mortiser.

The hollow chisel mortiser makes rectangular mortises, which makes the tenon fabrication easy.

A slot mortiser of course makes mortices with rounded ends, the tenons need rounded ends or use loose tenons.

The hollow chisel mortiser is quiet, and can make deep mortises, something useful for building door construction.

I don't like routers so I don't own one.

Regards, Rod.

[Paul McGaha]

Just my $.02 but I think a hollow chisel mortiser is the easiest way to make mortises. That's what I have and no thoughts to do it any other way. It's easy, makes the mortises well, not a lot of dust or noise, pretty small footprint, reasonable cost (especially for a benchtop model).

I have the Powermatic PM-719. It's a floor machine with a non tilting table. Had it 7 or 8 years now.

I've noticed his subject comes up for discussion from time to time.

PHM

[Charles Robertson]

I have the PM 719-T. By far my favorite. I've used the drill press and chisel, router jigs, drill press mortise attachment, Jet benchtop and now my floor model PM. Each one was a step up. In my opinion, save yourself some time and effort, go to a bench top or floor model. I whole heartedly agree with Rod and Paul.
CAR

[Brian Krause]

On a similar note, which method is best to make large mortises (1.5" x 3" x 3-4" deep), say for a workbench?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Brian, I would suggest a hollow chisel mortiser or the drill/chisel approach for a mortise of that size.

You may find that a combination of the two methods works best...............Rod.

[Thomas L. Miller]

Brian,
I built a Benchcrafted Roubo bench last summer. I used my PM 719T hollow chisel mortiser for all the mortises. It did an outstanding job. The key to this machine or any hollow chisel mortiser, in my humble opinion, is to make sure the chisels are really sharp. Some of the mortises on that bench are 1" wide and were "through mortises" in the legs which were 3+" thick. I just used a router to make slip tenons/mortises for some chairs I'm building for SWMBO. Both methods work, both are useful and neither seems to be the "only" method I would use.
Tom

[Jamie Buxton]

...A slot mortiser of course makes mortices with rounded ends, the tenons need rounded ends or use loose tenons.... .

No. What holds the M&T joint together is glue. Glue on the tenon cheeks does the job. You can use tenons with rectangular cross-section in mortises cut by a slot mortiser or a router.

[John TenEyck]

Nothing cuts mortises cleaner or faster than a router. If you use loose tenons the fit will be perfect to the mortises, with no tweaking, shaving, whatever which often (read always) is required with tenons cut on the ends of stock. After looking at the cost of the FMT and other router based machines, I built my own slot mortiser for less than $50 which serves about 90% of my needs. Can't do 4 inch deep ones with it, but can't remember the last time I needed to make one that deep.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

No offense guys....it's really just a matter of personal preference.

I use a GI benchtop mortiser. I chose it above other brands for several reasons (1) It has a more substantial holddown system than most of the other benchtop mortisers and (2) It tilts.f

[Stan Mitchell]

I have the PM701 and it's a dandy. Very smooth, quiet, and easy to use. It's mounted to the stand that Powermatic offers with some 3" casters on each leg.

Mortisers don't often get used daily, but because it's on wheels, I just tuck it into a corner when not in use, and wheel it out when needed.

[Brian Krause]

Tom and Rod, thanks for the advice. I have used my hollow chisel mortiser pretty extensively for smaller mortises, but I was not sure how it would fare on larger through mortises. That is why I was considering trying out the forstner bit/chisel or router method for this bench. Tom, when you used the HCM to make the big mortises, did you flip the board and mortise from the front and back to meet in the middle? Thanks again.
Brian

[Rod Sheridan]

No. What holds the M&T joint together is glue. Glue on the tenon cheeks does the job. You can use tenons with rectangular cross-section in mortises cut by a slot mortiser or a router.

Yes Jamie, that's true in many applications, however I often make through mortices for either structural purposes (No glue, just wedged) or for cosmetic purposes (Arts & Crafts).

I do agree that in most applications the glue holds the joint together, however I still foolishly like a good fitting joint so a square tenon in a radiused mortise wouldn't be my choice.

Regards, Rod.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

The two options you are considering are not perfect substitutes. Both make mortises, but the jjig will also cut the perfectly matched tenons. A good hollow chisel mortiser--and by good I am referring to one with a full x/y/z capability such as the pm 719T-- will handle longer larger stock, mortise on angle and easily accommodate tenons made by any othe method. The jig it certainly clean and accurate, but for the money I would be more inclined to get full size mortiser and use router and template for end grain work. Or try looking at the Domino too.

[Paul McGaha]

No offense guys....it's really just a matter of personal preference.

I use a GI benchtop mortiser. I chose it above other brands for several reasons (1) It has a more substantial holddown system than most of the other benchtop mortisers and (2) It tilts.f

Ken makes a very good point about making a priority out of the hold down system. To me, It is the difference between a hollow chisel mortiser that is a pleasure to use and one that is not.

PHM

[david brum]

If you're already considering investing a grand, why not get a horizontal mortiser? For the same money as the Leigh without counting in a router purchase, you can get a Laguna http://www.lagunatools.com/mortiser-platinumhs# . Horizontal mortisers are the cat's meow for ease of use and versatility. I don't know about this Laguna, but I can use my budget Grizzly slot mortiser for dowels as well. These things use cheap HSS end mills (around $4) which cut super clean mortises. They are quiet, don't make dust and don't make smoke.

The best part is that you can use loose tenons, so there is not the hassle of cutting tenon shoulders, adjusting tenon thickness, etc. Just cut a bunch of mortises, make up a batch of tenon stock on the planer and you're good to go.

Edit: I have one of these http://www.grizzly.com/products/Single-Spindle-Horizontal-Boring-Machine/G0540 . I had to do some mods to make it functional, but it works great now. I can't remember the last time I used my hollow chisel mortiser.

[Don Wacker]

I had the Laguna mentioned above and the griz horizotal boring machine. I dont own either any more but have the FMT Pro. Honestly the FMT is cool but you cant beat the Laguna slot mortiser especially if you go with their birds mouth cutters. They cut just as clean as any router and are much easier to use than even a hollow chisel mortiser. They will cut any size mortise and for me the important part was simplicity. Even a complete moron can get great mortises perfectly aligned and use loose tenons. The only thing other than a slot mortiser that is that simple is the Domino.

Don

[Alan Lightstone]

Another possibility I have, is that I have a 12" Laguna combo jointer/planer and could add their 3 axis mortiser. Anyone have any experience with that? Clearly it has tons of power compared to the hollow chisel mortisers like the Powermatic.

Are there downsides to this approach? Is it a good mortiser? Only $400 list price, which is tempting.

One thing that does sound good to me is the accuracy of the Leigh with presumably very close fitting mortises and tenons.

[Charles Lent]

I tried most of the methods of making M&T joints and have given up making them with chisels of any kind, even the hollow chisel mortisers. They just aren't accurate enough for me. A router is so much quicker and more accurate. I have owned a Leigh FMT jig for about 5 years now and it does a great job of making both the mortises and the perfectly matching tenons to fit them, but it's expensive. I justified mine with a very large production project that required hundreds of perfectly fitting M&T joints. It was well worth the expense as it saved a lot of time on that project. If I hadn't bought it for this project I doubt that I would have spent the money for it. It does a great job, but it's expensive, especially if trying to justify it for a non-production shop.

You can make mortises easily with a router and a guide, or even a Mortise Pal or similar jig. You can then make floating tenon stock to fit these mortises on your table saw and a planer will cut this stock to exactly the right thickness to fit the mortises perfectly. Rounding the edges of the tenons to fit the mortises isn't necessary, since the joint strength is created by the sides of the tenon and it's proper fit to the sides of the mortise, but if you really want to, you can round them easily on a router table and a bull nose bit. In fact, the 1/2 round spaces at the ends of the mortise, when using square tenons, are a good place for the excess glue to go. Floating tenons are just as strong as traditional tenons if they fit the mortises correctly. The joints made this way will be every bit as good as those made with an FMT jig. It will just take a bit longer.

Charley

[Jim Rimmer]

I've read all the responses but haven't looked up the model numbers to see how much they cost and don't know what your budget is but here's my 2 cents. If I were going to be making a lot of furniture that had M&T joints (Craftsman, Mission, etc.) I would invest in a bench top machine. I have a DP attachment and can't make it work. Here's a link to a couple of videos I made of my shop made router jig.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeiIh5vIcok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2KCIxnx7lk&feature=related
I'm not quite as precise or talented as some but you can take this technique and improve on it, maybe.

[John TenEyck]

As I mentioned earlier, here's my horizontal, router driven mortiser. It uses a 2' x 4' sheet of 3/4" MDF, some maple for the runners, and a couple of toggle clamps. It cost me $50, not including the router. I use Onsrud spiral router bits, which cut very smoothly and pull the chips out as you cut. Building the mortiser was pretty straight forward, but I can provide more details if anyone is interested.

http://picasaweb.google.com/JohnTenEyck54/SlotMortiser?authuser=0&feat=directlink

[Roy Fleming]

The biggest draw back I see with my bench top mortiser is the limited height available under the chisel. Numerous times I have had to fabricate and install a riser blocks to increase the usable height for making mortises in boards wider than about 5 inches.

[ian maybury]

While we're discussing options another is the Woodrat/Router Boss format machine, although unless placed very high they are going to be limited on work requiring cutting say tenons on the end of long stock.

I'm no expert, and spent a lot of time looking at the various options - and gave up in confusion as I couldn't really bottom the issue without access to machines and user experience. I bough a Domino as an interim solution.

One very big variable in this whole situation is I think the question of how often one expects to need to cut angled joints - as in the case of certain types of chairs.

I ended up left with the sneaking feeling that the European style horizontal mortiser has a lot going for it....

[Stephen Cherry]

I bough a Domino as an interim solution.

One very big variable in this whole situation is I think the question of how often one expects to need to cut angled joints - as in the case of certain types of chairs.

.

My opinion is that if you have the dinero the domino is a great way to stick things together in a hurry. I look at them when I go to the woodworking stores, but have yet to pull the trigger. As has been discussed though, a round ended tenon is basically a glue joint...

As for chairs, the problem, as I see it, with something like the PM719T (I think) is that it only tilts in one direction, which is not enough to build something like a chippendale style chair. The good thing though, is that it's easy enough to make wedges to rotate the pieces in the desired angles. Plus, the advantage of wedges is that they will remember the angle forever so there is less time spent trying to adjust things. So, even though I have a mortiser that will tilt, I've never felt the need to tilt it.

THat said, if I had to buy a mortiser, I would look for something with the clamp and x-y table, and would not be that interested in the tilt.

[Thomas L. Miller]

Brian,
Yes, when I made a through mortise, I mortised from both sides. It's simple. Just carry the marked mortise lines around the workpiece to the reverse side and mortise away. The reason I did it that way was to make sure there wouldn't be any "blow out". If you have any more questions, please let me know.
Tom

[david brum]

I ended up left with the sneaking feeling that the European style horizontal mortiser has a lot going for it....

You'll love it. I just am remembering reading that some slot mortiser add-ons run backward because they're powered by the same motor that operates the cutting heads. No problem- you just get some bird's mouth mortising bits, which cut either way. Laguns sells them, but they're expensive. I bought some from these guys for quite a bit less. http://www.morriswoodtool.com/Tooling-Misc.htm




(http://www.morriswoodtool.com/Tooling-Misc.htm)

[glenn bradley]

Your satisfaction with a given solution will differ with what you are doing. You mention getting more serious about your furniture making but that is still wide open. Consider what type of mortises you will be doing by size. If the bulk of them are over 3" long and 1/2" wide a dedicated machine makes sense (and may make sense other times as well).

If you will be making more chairs, tables, drawer units and cabinets than workbenches, beds and sofas, a router and jig takes up less room and the router can do many other tasks. Just to be clear, I am not one of those people who think a router should be used for everything including brushing your teeth. I did go through a couple of months of assessing dedicated floor, bench and jig-type solutions. I bought a Mortise Pal to do a few things and to get a real world assessment of my needs.

I have never needed anything else so far but, that is me and your requirements are sure to be different. If the occasional large mortise and tenon requirement comes along, I can get through a half a dozen without dedicating the shop real estate to a larger machine. I've also survived with a tablesaw that is half the power of my jointer or my planer.

Only you can determine where to spend your money. Gather a lot of info here, on other forums and through your own research. Chew on it for awhile and I am sure you wil make the right decision for your needs.

[Mike Heidrick]

I currently own:
Woodtek Matchmaker
Jet Floor Mortiser
Laguna V-Way horizontal mortiser

I sold the FMT Pro recently

Also have cnc and portable routers.

The fact is that the project will dictate which tool is best. If you are making furniture seriously you will own several. You first contracted job or planned furniture build will dictate the order you buy them in. That or the deal you find (like $300 Jet floor mortisers a few years ago). Buy the tools to fit the project.

The Laguna V-way is reversable and can use tons of companies mortise bits. It will make super long mortises. The table/work moves though. The super nice production quality mortisers have the work fixed and the head moves. HUGE quality difference in the V-way vs the $4K Euro Laguna slot mortiser (fixed table design). The Euro one seems like a dream to use and manuver compared to the one I bought. HUGE difference in how you can fixture large work pieces. I added a Kreg Klamp style table and added air clamps wich makes work holding nice if possible to use it. I would not modify the $500 Griz Horiz boring machine - just buy a V-way. It was easier to justify when it was $300 but now the simplicity of using the V-Way and the one direction limitation on tooling of the horiz boring setup make it hard to justify the Griz. The V-way also has an indexing rod for precise hole mortising.

I own Onsurd, Laguna, Leitz, and now Felder horiz mortise tooling. They are all very nice.

The FMT was precise but had the router limitations in tooling and the fixturing was always a thought in planning a project. The tenons for its mortises are super sweet. It might have been the most fun machine to use out of my "collection".

The Matchmaker is very similar to a JDS Multi router. Very creative but still has router tooling limitations. It can make tenons as well or easier than the FMT. Its a crazy tool and you dan do a lot with the right setup.

The Jet and Powermatic or other floor hollow chisel mortisers are brutes in the hollow chisel world. Someone commented on power. Well sharpened chisels and the fact that there is an auger means you do not need 3-5hp to cut huge mortises. Its all about nice and sharp tooling. The X/Y table and vise like clamping are great. You just have limits of that table travel or you need to change it and add fixturing.

Sometimes I just build a portable jig for a hand held plunge router too.

All depends on what I want to do and what I feel like setting up.

Now - mostly I use the cnc to cut mortises or dowel holes in my work if I can do that. So easy to get crazy precise.

For beds I go to the Jet or V-way.

I have not tried a domino, or Woodrat/RouterBoss and have only played with a Multirouter at IWF. All these are super nice but have limitations too.

Pics of most of mine are here towards the bottom:
http://myplace.frontier.com/~unix888/bloomingtonmikeswoodshop/

Matchmaker
http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/mr/?action=view&current=IMG_0696.jpg

[paul cottingham]

I have an FMT. It is a brilliant bit of engineering. Just bought a bench top mortiser. I use the mortiser a lot more. I am now looking to sell the super FMT. 'nuff said.
For me, the mortiser is less fuss to set up and quieter with less vibration.

[Brian Krause]

Thanks for that advice, I had the same thoughts about the blow out and was debating between a backer board or going from both sides. I think I will try half of the mortises with the HCM, and the other half with the Forstner/chisel method, just to compare if nothing else.

[Alan Lightstone]

Not to hijack my own thread, here, but Mike - whose air clamps are you using? They look amazing.