Selling lumber?

[Heath Fitts]

Does anybody have any experience selling lumber? My dad is looking into buying a portable sawmill and he has a source for as many free felled trees as he can handle and is wondering what it might take to sell the lumber and make a little extra money (and pay for the sawmill). Species of trees would be those native to the Louisiana area - things like Oaks, Pecan, Cedar, Cypress, Sycamore, Hickory, Walnut, and more Pine than you'd really care for. I was just wondering if anyone had some guidance or suggestions or some experience to share on the idea.

[alex grams]

For pine I would let the local sawmills mess with that stuff, you won't get much use for other than construction lumber.

In regards to the other woods, does he have any way of drying the wood? Will he just air dry, or a kiln?

I would start off by selling it locally on craigslist, even maybe making delivery within a certain distance to get his product out there.

I would crunch some numbers on how much he would have to mill to pay for time/equipment.

Secondary to that, maybe check the local lumber yards and see if he can undersell some of their suppliers of their hardwoods. This may be an option if he has a large amount of a certain species he needs to move, but your profit margin will be much smaller by that method.

I would also look at advertising the mill itself as the income, and offer milling services to anyone having some trees cut down. I presume your source for lumber is a tree removal/trimming company. Maybe offer them a 5% cut of any profit if they promote him as someone who can mill lumber for someone they are removing trees from.

[Jerome Hanby]

If was dry and a decent price, I'd drive to LA to pick up a load of Walnut and QS white oak!

[Gene Howe]

Don't forget the PECAN!!!

[johnny means]

I know a few guys trying to do just what your talking about. Everyone of them is struggling just to keep things going. Seems like a no brainer, get free materials, cut it up, sell for big profits. Not. First of all, the actual work is ridiculously hard. Selling the product is even harder. All the guys I know, I met while buying fire sale lumber at less than a dollar per bf. Proffesionals won't want to buy from him because they won't trust the quality. Hobbiest will want to dig through a ton of lumber to buy one stinking board, then haggle on price. Woodweb has a forum on this topic, if to want to hear from those with actual experience.

[Jim Matthews]

It's difficult to compete with the large box stores, even if you have a better product.

My local sawmill primarily refits over the road trailers with new decking.
In my opinion, the only way to make any money is by taking on the very finest flitches which are difficult grains and full of reaction wood.

There's little demand, but the price can be quite high.

If you have a minimum set up fee, and charge less than a dollar per board foot (yield) it can be profitable to just provide the service.

I buy my lumber from Downes and Reader of Stoughton, MA and take the left over stock not sold to larger contractors and restoration carpenters.
It's tough to compete with someone like that, too.

jim
wpt, ma

[Scott Driemel]

Hello Heath. I'm going to echo a lot of what's been said. I too thought that buying a mill was the answer. All that hardwood, hopefully for free, and then to sell it in a lucrative hardwood market. The economic crash has caused hardwood to drop in my area in the Northwest. Big mills handling it stopped altogether or now cherry pick loads that they can sell as export to the Asian markets primarily. Even some of them have stopped shipping to the Orient as demand there has slowed down too.
I cannot emphasize enough what Johnny says. It is a lot of work. You need the yard, and a way to keep it clean and mud free. You need to create bunks to keep the logs off the ground. You need to have slash piles to burn (if your allowed) the waste and cutting hardwood creates much more than softwood as the pith is useless and must be cut out. By all means use the scribner or like log tables to determine possible yield out of a log but in reality, with mineral stain, black heart, cat faces, spiral knots etc, you lose a ton of wood. All that waste has to be carried and placed somewhere. If you don't have big bins, machinery to move it etc it all has to be done by your dad by hand. Even the cutting is brutal by yourself, and a waste of gas while carrying the wood to your sort pile or specie pile. And yes, the fellows who are hobbyists, an no offence intended, want to sort thru piles, leave them so you need to repile them often, (not always) and your lucky to get $1.50-$2.00 a brd ft for air dried hardwood. After I bought my sawmill, (thinking man, with the price of hardwood I'll pay for this in a few months) I saw that the milling is as mentioned only a small part of doing it. The selling, hustling for orders, & looking for jobs is the tough part on a scale to actually earn decent money at. I'd suggest your pop to buy a smaller used bandsaw mill, like a Norwood type, spend a few thousand and try it out. Get some, not a lot of logs for free from his "connection" and mill them up for himself. Once he gets a good feel for it, then he can make a better decision. He might love milling but hate the hassle of selling. In which case the idea of being a "mill for hire" can work. That way, if the customer wants to slow the process down & waste your time, hopefully you've agreed to an hourly rate so you won't lose on the relationship. But, never say never & your dad might be in the perfect geigraphic area, no other mills, lots of potential customers, and love the haggling and hard work! If you want to ever discuss this on the phone, feel free to pm me and I'll shoot you my number. Don't get me wrong, I can't tell you how rewarding it is to save a tree from the chipper & produce magnificent boards from it. But don't let the romance side of it make your decision. Let the brain have a minute of time at the decision podium as well! Best of luck. PS: Best deals I ever got on hardwood lumber were while I was watching craigslist & buying lumber 1000br/ft at a time from fellows who bought a mill, then found it (the lumber) really tough to get rid of. The last 1000 I bought averaged out to .30 a brd/ft. It didn't even make sense to mill my own logs (which I get for free as well) at that price, so I bought all his. He was glad to be done with it and out of the business.

[Andrew Joiner]

Best deals I ever got on hardwood lumber were while I was watching craigslist & buying lumber 1000br/ft at a time from fellows who bought a mill, then found it (the lumber) really tough to get rid of. The last 1000 I bought averaged out to .30 a brd/ft. It didn't even make sense to mill my own logs (which I get for free as well) at that price, so I bought all his. He was glad to be done with it and out of the business.

This says a lot. I would first shop for hardwood on craiglist in your area, Heath. This will be very informative. If there's used mills and cut lumber at low prices, that means they've tried to make money and can't.

[Kenneth Hertzog]

OK
I will reply to this from the standpoint that I own a portable band-saw mill.
I use it to cut my own wood because getting a saw mill to cut the size and style
I wanted was non-existent. They will not quarter saw or cut burls or crotch wood.
the few times I've moved the mill to other locations payment was NEVER made
but I did get a lot of thank you's
For custom cutting work for yourself and others its fun
for profit it is like others have already said.
Ken

[Carl Beckett]

I buy lumber from individuals with small sawmill setups. I pay about $.45 to $.75 per board foot. There is a fair bit of waste (runout due to poor milling, quality, etc etc). I then air dry it myself.

If I want something more fancy, I buy leftover material from others. This costs more, but is still typically half of retail. Even my Rockler store has some good deals on clearance (the last I bought was a nice batch of 8/4 hard maple at $2/bd ft) - this is top grade kiln dried material.

Just sharing my perspective as a buyer.

Its as everyone says - tough as a business.

[Derek Gilmer]

I buy lumber from individuals with small sawmill setups. I pay about $.45 to $.75 per board foot. There is a fair bit of waste (runout due to poor milling, quality, etc etc). I then air dry it myself.

If I want something more fancy, I buy leftover material from others. This costs more, but is still typically half of retail. Even my Rockler store has some good deals on clearance (the last I bought was a nice batch of 8/4 hard maple at $2/bd ft) - this is top grade kiln dried material.

Just sharing my perspective as a buyer.

Its as everyone says - tough as a business.

This is about my experience with local saw mills. I'm happy to buy from them because the prices are so good.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I don't think investing in your own sawmill is the only approach.

If you've got trees, chop them down into logs and ship them freight to a huge sawmill operation like one from South Carolina. Then they'll process the lumber that his efficiently milled and kiln dried.

Then if you have a forest amount of trees to sell then you probably won't get much sold locally like others have said, though you can sell the wood to other countries.

My cousins neighbor is 27 years old and is making some serious money in the lumber business.

He basically gets his trees from Mexico and Costa Rica and sells them to Asia. For quality he will send his trees to the quality mills in the states while sometimes he will use the mills in the area where the trees came from. He started off selling 40 containers a month and now he is selling over 100 containers a month.

In Mexico you can buy fairly large red or white oak trees for cheap. They'll even load them and ship them for you. Then you have a mill process the logs for you. Of course there's a little more to it than that... I'm not in the business myself, I just hear the success stories.

If I was in your shoes, I'd send the logs to a good sawmill by the container. At least that way you know that your wood will turn out to be quality and it could help your resell.

[Scott T Smith]

Heath, as you can see from the trend in the responses to your query, sawmilling is not a particularly lucrative business, even if the logs are "free".

If your Dad has the extra money laying around to purchase the mill, and wants to operate it as a hobby, then by all means he should do so. Milling can be very rewarding personally, if not financially.

If his intention is to operate as a viable business and make a respectable profit, it's much tougher than most folks realize, and in all liklihood after a year or so the mill will either site idle or be sold at a loss.

It's a hard business, with low prices perpetuated by "hobby millers" that don't truly understand the costs associated with the business (and price accordingly).

[Jerome Hanby]

You know, if you had the room (an old chicken house comes to mind) to dry and store the lumber you could look at the long game. At least from my buying, lumber always gets more expensive. If you stored away the choicest cuts and sold the rest as best you can, then some year down the line, it might really be worth something. Heck, a few more Asian insect infestations and we won't have any hardwood left in the USA.

[Heath Fitts]

Thanks for the replies, everyone! My question was based on just one quick phone call with Dad. I'll print this thread out and take it when I go visit this weekend and I'll discuss it more with him. If I know my dad, and I think I do, his primary reason for wanting to sawmill is to fit into his goal of being totally self sufficient. If he needed to build a new barn or extension to a shed or his shop, he doesn't want to have to go to a big box store for lumber. He'd rather build it with lumber he milled himself. With over 100 acres of land, surrounded by hundreds of acres of timber company land, in the middle of nowhere, he has plenty of room to stack wood, cut wood, burn wood, or do whatever. No neighbors to complain or zoning laws or HOAs to comply with. He makes his own diesel from used cooking oil he collects from several diners and restaurants in the area. He has put a lot of thought and research into generating his own electricity so he can get "off the grid." So I would imagine that "self sufficiency" is the primary reason behind wanting the mill. The idea of selling some of the lumber would just be to offset the cost of the mill or possibly make some extra money. But I doubt he's really wanting to go into it as a full time business or looking to get rich off of it. If he were to try to sell some pieces online, what might he have most success with? Lumber? Single boards or large lots? Turning blanks?

[Derek Gilmer]

Thanks for the replies, everyone! My question was based on just one quick phone call with Dad. I'll print this thread out and take it when I go visit this weekend and I'll discuss it more with him. If I know my dad, and I think I do, his primary reason for wanting to sawmill is to fit into his goal of being totally self sufficient. If he needed to build a new barn or extension to a shed or his shop, he doesn't want to have to go to a big box store for lumber. He'd rather build it with lumber he milled himself. With over 100 acres of land, surrounded by hundreds of acres of timber company land, in the middle of nowhere, he has plenty of room to stack wood, cut wood, burn wood, or do whatever. No neighbors to complain or zoning laws or HOAs to comply with. He makes his own diesel from used cooking oil he collects from several diners and restaurants in the area. He has put a lot of thought and research into generating his own electricity so he can get "off the grid." So I would imagine that "self sufficiency" is the primary reason behind wanting the mill. The idea of selling some of the lumber would just be to offset the cost of the mill or possibly make some extra money. But I doubt he's really wanting to go into it as a full time business or looking to get rich off of it. If he were to try to sell some pieces online, what might he have most success with? Lumber? Single boards or large lots? Turning blanks?

The satisfaction of self sufficiency is great. I'm far from it but helped an older friend build a cabin. He started with trees off his farm, milled on his sawmill, split the shingles and so on. Every time we spent time down at the cabin it felt "right".

[Jerome Hanby]

Sounds like a great reason. Maybe he can find someone who though they were going to make money off a portable sawmill and buy it on the cheap!



Thanks for the replies, everyone! My question was based on just one quick phone call with Dad. I'll print this thread out and take it when I go visit this weekend and I'll discuss it more with him. If I know my dad, and I think I do, his primary reason for wanting to sawmill is to fit into his goal of being totally self sufficient. If he needed to build a new barn or extension to a shed or his shop, he doesn't want to have to go to a big box store for lumber. He'd rather build it with lumber he milled himself. With over 100 acres of land, surrounded by hundreds of acres of timber company land, in the middle of nowhere, he has plenty of room to stack wood, cut wood, burn wood, or do whatever. No neighbors to complain or zoning laws or HOAs to comply with. He makes his own diesel from used cooking oil he collects from several diners and restaurants in the area. He has put a lot of thought and research into generating his own electricity so he can get "off the grid." So I would imagine that "self sufficiency" is the primary reason behind wanting the mill. The idea of selling some of the lumber would just be to offset the cost of the mill or possibly make some extra money. But I doubt he's really wanting to go into it as a full time business or looking to get rich off of it. If he were to try to sell some pieces online, what might he have most success with? Lumber? Single boards or large lots? Turning blanks?

[Aleks Hunter]

I have a 36" Farmboss that I bought 7 years ago to mill logs from my own land to use in the inn and to sister up and resheathe the interior of the barn. I really have to get moving on that job, human life span is only 80 years. I know several people with their own band mills and some with full commercial sawmills.

First the bad news:

What I can tell you is that getting the mill and logs is only the very beginning.

You're going to need:

storage for the milled wood -- not a big deal if you're milling your own lumber, but the tax man will cometh.

You are definitely going to need a kiln for dryng if you expect to be making any money selling lumber. I don;t see Louisiana humidity being conducive to rapid air drying. Onthe bright side the sun is hot so solar is an option.

YOU have to move that wood around so a loader, big bobcat or the like or bigger. I use a 5 ton excavator, best toy in the sandbox.

I don't know what zoning is down there, but noise is an issue.

Insurance premiums willl make you bang your head.

Then there is the sawdust. Up here we have horse people who are glad to get it. But some woods, like walnut are big nono's

What are you going to do with the sawdust. And the slabs? Up here we use slab wood to burn during sugaring so not a big deal, but I don;t think you have a lot of sugar maples down there. You could make a deal with a logger who has a big chipper to come down and chip it up for biomass fuel if there are those kinds of plants running down there, nice way to dispose of sawdust too. But they want 48' trailers full to drop the chipper off.

My mill is 23 hp and with a .042 blade I can make a yard of sawdust an hour. A big mill will do more.

Running a mill is a lot of schlepping. and wet wood is heavy...

Bandmills cut nicer than buzz saws, but you still need a planer.

and an edger.

There is a pretty good learning curve unless you have experience as a sawyer. Start out cutting cheaper wood. you are going to make mistakes

But there is good news.

With a band mill and a big planer and a good edger you can make some wickedly righteous wide board flooring and panelling.

Get to know area contractors. The guys who build castles, not mcmansions. If your mill has long enough tracks and big logs are available, custom beams can make a lot more money than boards.

Get to know the custom cabinet makers in the area Try to work with people who make log home kits. Their customers need cabinetry, and some big thick slabs and beams help to make some dandy mantles etc.

Get organized with what you're cutting, keeping consecutive boards together for bookmatching and that is also a premium.

Add a shaper, and voila! picture frames and molding... money to be made there as well.

Cedar is decking. Clear cedar is soundboards.

Sounds like you have some disticntive local woods unavailable in much of the rest of the country. If you have a lot of it there may be some people in other parts of the country milling wood unavailable in your area. For example cypress is beautiful, and we have none in New England. But we have plenty of hard maple, beech, and cherry. The price of shipping a truckload via rail ain't bad vs the going price of woods from far away places. And it makes a unique product available to you. I know a guy who swapped a truckload of figured Maple for a truckload of salvaged Redwood both shipped via rail, both sides very very happy. Don;t think outside the box. throw the box away. With a sawmill you will have plenty of wood to build better boxes.

Back on the beams, invest in a 16" circular saw and get plans and cut beams for timber frame garage and small barn kits. Its really just basic joinery, just with bigger sticks.

Basically lumber itself will not make a lot of money. We have righteous figured cherry and hard maple here. Lots in the barn, makes nice furniture and built ins but I know a few people who went belly up trying to sell quality hardwoods Up here in the sticks. You know how us woodworkers are, basically tightwads! :) I've never tried to sell a board. but people see the wood drying in front of the barn and stop and buy some. Mostly for flooring. 16 and up boards make dandy flooring. But a lot more money is to be made in something value added. Something the "Norm" wannabes out there can bring home and put together without a lot skill sets needed.

Start advertizing without spending. Craigslist and facebook are your friends.

PR Does your school have a woodshop? Donate some lumber make sure the local papers write you up for it. Timbers for a pavilion for local churches? Local habitat for humanity? Cheaply available wood can generate a lot of great PR for a fledgling business.

[John Prexta]

I just recently hired a portable bandmill (woodmizer) and on three sessions, cut up 31 logs. In total I paid 1,000 for just over 4,000 bf of lumber. (he charged 24 cents a foot). Kiln drying near me is 50 cents a bf. I'm going to be building a solar kiln in the spring. Very labor intensive. He ran the saw while i pulled slab wood and finished boards. This past saturday we did 13 logs. We went non stop from 9 am to 4:30pm.

[Aleks Hunter]

Like I said it is a LOT of schlepping! Solar kiln is on my to do list. Trouble is its on page 4 of 50.

[Scott T Smith]

Thanks for the replies, everyone! My question was based on just one quick phone call with Dad. I'll print this thread out and take it when I go visit this weekend and I'll discuss it more with him. If I know my dad, and I think I do, his primary reason for wanting to sawmill is to fit into his goal of being totally self sufficient. If he needed to build a new barn or extension to a shed or his shop, he doesn't want to have to go to a big box store for lumber. He'd rather build it with lumber he milled himself. With over 100 acres of land, surrounded by hundreds of acres of timber company land, in the middle of nowhere, he has plenty of room to stack wood, cut wood, burn wood, or do whatever. No neighbors to complain or zoning laws or HOAs to comply with. He makes his own diesel from used cooking oil he collects from several diners and restaurants in the area. He has put a lot of thought and research into generating his own electricity so he can get "off the grid." So I would imagine that "self sufficiency" is the primary reason behind wanting the mill. The idea of selling some of the lumber would just be to offset the cost of the mill or possibly make some extra money. But I doubt he's really wanting to go into it as a full time business or looking to get rich off of it. If he were to try to sell some pieces online, what might he have most success with? Lumber? Single boards or large lots? Turning blanks?

Your dad sounds like a great guy!

The very first thing that he should do is to start spending time on The Forestry Forum (www.forestryforum.com (http://www.forestryforum.com)). He will discover a tremendous amount of knowledge and talent in areas that he's interested in; not only about milling and comparisons between different mills, but also with being self sufficient.

As to what to sell, the best advice that I could give him is to pick a niche that is not fulfilled, and then fill it. Factor in plenty of time for marketing. He's also going to need some means of log and lumber handling.

The FF has many members in his back yard, including LA, east Texas, Mississippi, TN and Arkansas, that he may want to befriend and spend some time checking out their mills.

Best of success to him.

Scott

[Paul Johnstone]

. But I doubt he's really wanting to go into it as a full time business or looking to get rich off of it. If he were to try to sell some pieces online, what might he have most success with? Lumber? Single boards or large lots? Turning blanks?

I don't know if this is a successful business model, but I see other people make lots of 200-300 bdft of a single species and sell it on CL.
You buy the pile "as is".. The seller will estimate the grade on it..I've bought quite a few lots this way.
You've got to think, most hobbyists aren't going to want to buy 1000 bd feet at once.

I really doubt turning blanks would be a profitable business. Most turners are pretty frugal and cut their own blanks.

[Jim Andrew]

I have my own bandmill, a Cooks mp32 manual mill. Cuts up to 32" dia log by 16'. Figured I could afford to play woodworking if I made my own lumber. Thing is, you need something to handle logs and lumber, sheds to dry it, stickers, they might seem like nothing, but you need truck loads of em. And sawing is the hardest work, loading up logs on the mill and turning them. Not to mention pushing the mill through the logs! And after you have it sawed, you're just starting. Load the boards in your truck, along with stickers and pile them up in your sheds. I have piles 8' wide and 12' tall. Hump em up by hand in the barn. And most of the lumber truthfully is low grade. Not all trees have first class lumber in them. I appreciate people who like character in their wood!

[Michael Menzli]

From my perspective it comes down to a few things...what do you really want to achieve? As many posts and the economy has dictated, becoming extremely wealthy in the wood business is not going to happen..To even make this a living will be extremely difficult...your best bet will be the niche market but even then your going to deal with hagglersI havnt seen anyone mention saw maintenance and fuel costs...Also cutting lumber in communities is a real gamble as your dealing with nails and screws and you get the picture. ..Now..If the desire is to break even and fund a wonderful hobby then thats a different ballgame altogether. Sure it is hard work.and gets expensive.... I run a meager 24" chainsaw mill a couple of times a week for my own PLEASURE. To me its hard work but something I love to do. I then can share this with folks and hopefully inspire others. So the profit for me is inspiring others and creating art...is this realistic without a day job no.

[Don Buck]

I have been selling hardwood lumber for over 25 years, getting my start as a forester who helped his dad on his Woodmizer LT-30 and solar dry kiln which has lead to a career selling hardwoods around the world for several mills, including a major forest products company located in your town of Alex (I lived on Hill Street). To be successful you need a few things on your side, excellent quality logs, good manufacturing and most importantly, a good customer base. Having a spouse with a job and benefits is very handy also.

My dad's operation was near Richmond, Virginia and he had a good following of wood workers who purchased all kinds of wood that he cut and dried. He sold a lot of fruitwoods (cherry, apple, persimmon etc) and a lot of walnut (4/4 - 16/4). I don't know if Alex has a woodworker's base to support your idea. You might have to consider a "milk route" and deliver lumber to wood consumers. You timber base is a mixed bag, excellent cypress, pecan & hackberry. The ash is okay as long as your customers can tolerate glass worms. The local red & white oak is very Southern (fast growth and frequent mineral) and may not be too desirable to many woodworkers. The hearwood of your local sweetgum (red gum) is a very desirable local species but is very difficult to dry flat. Of all the local species, this is one you could ship across the country and it sells close to walnut prices.

You can't keep you inventory of pecan & ash very long before you will get some problems with powder post beetles so turn your stock over quickly or be prepared for some law suits.

Check around and see if you can find some woodworker's clubs in LA & TX and build a customer base. The woodworking show usually comes to Dallas every December and you would be surprised how many potential lumber buyers (hobbiest and serious woodworkers) you could meet during the 2 -3 day show.

Not trying to discourage you but my dad ran his wood business for about 8 years and it never really got beyond the hobby level but then again he was 72 years old when he purchased his woodmizer! However, I got sawdust in my viens from his operation and now sell a comparable volume of what he cut in a year with a single telephone call.

Good luck.

Don

[David Keller NC]

Heath - One thing that would apply to almost any small business that you will want to convince your Dad of - you do not sell to folks that have your own sense of value. For most that want to "do their own thing", that generally means doing everything very frugally, and it is absolutely essential that you not cultivate customers with the same attitude.

There is quite a large group of potential customers that will pay good money for a unique product, and an even larger group of potential customers that will pay little or no money for a unique product.

This is why I do not ever ask a local WW shop to cut a board, regardless of whether I need only 2 board feet. I buy the whole board (and far more often, several hundred board feet). I do this to ingratiate myself with the supplier, and I often get notification when something special comes in. Your dad will want to do something similar (except as the supplier) - it's hard to do, but "you may have the whole lot at the going price, I don't sell partial lots" is a saying that has to be absolutely ingrained into a lumber operation.

[Rick Fisher]

The trick to making money in the lumber business is having a market.. You find a client who needs 100,000 bf a year of clear alder... then you supply it ..

I am in the lumberyard business in BC .. We have all our rough cedar supplied by a local guy with a band mill.. He cuts it to our spec for quality and for the price we pay him.. Sounds odd but we decide what we will pay ahead of time.

Thing is .. he does a good job and we need him to stay in business.. So he has to make a profit .. Other thing is that we move a pile of cedar every year and there are 3 more guys like him waiting for him to quit..

Cutting logs into rough lumber .. that is a brutal business.. You will be shocked just how little money you make. I am willing to bet you would make more money buying rough lumber and surfacing it into S4S for retail.. ( with a moulder ) ..

Lots of money in " value adding " .. Finding a niche ..

Short story is .. find the customer first and you can make a living.. cut up a bunch of wood and hope it sells... Well.. dont quit your day job.

[Scott Driemel]

One thing to consider as well is that your geographic location determines a lot. I hear some chaps talking about trucking but I find where I am it's a deal breaker. Here in BC, (close to Vancouver) I have to pay in the range of $350-$450 for a full size logging truck to move wood.(and that's a short distance) I also have to hire a "self loading" truck as I have no excavator to load him. A self loader hauls a lot less than a non self loader. If your moving logs from one part of your land to another, it (the cost) can be a brutal kick in the pants. I recently bought a large black walnut tree and had a short logging truck with a self loader come and pick up the log & deliver it to my place. I got a screamin' deal at $150 but it only took the driver 1/2 hr to load & deliver it and it was only one tree. (about 1/4 of a load) Maybe where you are you can get cheaper trucking? But if you do have to pay big dollars and + the mill + storage + a solar kiln + upkeep + sawdust removal + repairs + routine maintenance +++, etc, etc, you are suddenly in the situation where you need to make X number of cents a board foot to even break even then you can (if you can't sell) of course, lose money. The guys here give some pretty sage advice. Tell pop's to start small. A good used cheap bandsaw mill can hopefully be had for around $3000.(Norwood, Woodmizer LT15 or the such) If it is in good shape, your Dad can "experiment" with it for a while, and then if he really wants to go "business" with it, he can sell it for almost what he paid and upgrade without it really costing him much (if any) at all. Where I am you CAN'T use "ungraded" lumber for any structure period. If a neighbour was to drop a dime on you to the city, that you'd build a 5000sqft barn, they'd come & inspect it. If you didn't get permits and they see the lumber has no "grading stamp" then they will demand you tear it down. No insurance Co. here will insure it if it is not permitted offically by the City. Now, you can hire a lumber grader to grade your boards as they come off the mill but here they cost $60-$100 hr. And they won't grade a stacked pile as they can't "see" the entire board. The beurocracy is brutal. If your area allows this then your laughing. But look into it before you do as otherwise you could be waltzing into a crapload of red tape should you ever need to make an insurance claim. I've found the trucking costs are prohibitive for small business. Large scale maybe but I can't afford it. Keep in mind suggestions are only useful if they apply to your dad's situation and don't get caught up in the big production guys. Your dad is a older (no offense) fellow, working a one man show. He has no big machinery to help him and has not got a lot of (if any) experience running a mill. Trust me, you DO NOT want your dad running the mill when he is exhausted. WAAAAY to dangerous. Like dirty Harry says, "a man's got to know his limitations". Don't let your dad bite off too much and get himself into a spot where he HAS to work when he's tired to pay for equipment, customer orders, or to use up wood before it spoils. Another fellow mentioned noise, yes indeed and lots of it. A sawblade being powered by a gasoline engine is not what I want for a neighbour period! If he goes into business, and the land is not zoned for it, and someone complains, he'll be shut down. Start off with moderation. You want him around long time, don't let him run himself to death working his butt off at this stage of his life. Sorry, bit of a rant, but just keep perspective of what's really important okay? Just go with a hobby only approach at first and then, see what options are resonable for your dad to pursue then. Being tired while operating a mill is a recipe for terrible disaster!

[Keith Hankins]

I've not done it myself but my supplier when I lived in IL did it and its something I want to do when I retire. He had a great setup. He did not start till he retired from boeing. The way he did it (and I will repeat some day) was he had a niche. He dealt with QS mostly. He became acquainted with the arborists in the area and when any trees went down he was there to get them or they would even call him at times or he bought some logs. He had about 20 acres and he would pile the logs on his property and 2 to three times a year he'd pay a sawer to come on site with a wodmizer and cut the logs. He had some nice ones quartered and ready. He had a tractor and would load the logs on a big hydrolic mill and cut all day. I spent 3 full vacation days learning how to cut a cant and get the best figured stuff (again he did QS) we'd sticker/stack and then when a full rick was done hed take it via the tractor to a spot on his property. It was covered with tin weighted down with block and a metal tag was added to the stack with the date. He would air dry for 9 months to a year and then load into his kiln. A year of air drying pulls a lot of moisture out. He did that to minimze the cost of the final drying. He had an nyle kiln sized to do about 2-3k feet per load. He told me he bought it used but the kiln and building cost about 5,000 to build. He uses wood scraps in a wood stove and blowers to get the initial heat up and then just runs the nyle. Running full out it takes about a week to 10 days (depending on the species) and then he takes it out and puts it in his comercial area for sale. Doing it that way he only needs space to store smaller amounts and is able to keep the other wood in the yard till time to dry and sell. He mainly did QSWO and cherry. I bought the cherry. He taught me about cherry that he let the logs lay (on the ground) for a year or till the bark would start to come off and that really pushed the color out and minimized the white wood. Go find someone who knows how to cut a log and its not as simple as slaping it up there and whipping through it. I have to admit the education that man gave me for the free labor I have him was just fantastic. I even asked him why he did not buy his own mill and he said why would I carry the depreciation all I want is it cut and by stocking the logs and just getting it cut it maximises the effort. Now I will tell you the guy running the mill does not haul boards and the big mills can really whip out some boards. Oh and let me mention the weight of an 8' to 10' board out of a wet log is heavy! I was shocked at how heavy a board is. Anyway I think you can make money and if you love it as i do go for it. I've got about 7 years to retire and I'm looking for land right now and that will be by way of keeping busy. So I say go for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Danny Hamsley]

I have a wood-mizer LT15 and I am doing what you are asking about. It is a lot of work. You need equipment like a tractor with front end loader at a minimum to handle logs and lumber and sheds to store and air dry lumber in additional to the mill and all the tools. I own 200 acres of land, and the logs come from my property for the most part. When I add up the cost of the equipment and buildings, etc, I am in the hole. But, I do it because I love doing it. I retired early so that I could spend some time doing what I loved to do before I got too old to be able to do it.

I sell on craigslist and it works pretty well. Yes, there are those that are looking to feed on some dying carcass, or steal something for nothing, but then again, there are a number of woodworkers out there who need a source for reasonably priced hardwood. It is just not available around here, much less at an affordable price. So, I fill a niche. Small time for sure, but a niche that is needed. The key is to produce high quality lumber, cut species that are not readily available, cut a variety of thicknesses and specialty items, and most importantly, love doing it because you will not be able to come close to make a living at doing it. But it can be rewarding to do on a small scale.