Handsaw "found"

[Gordon Eyre]

All this talk about reconditioning saws caught my attention and so I took a closer look at a saw I acquired from my dad many years ago. I have never used it much because it looked old and not in very good condition. Upon closer inspection I find that it is a Henry Disston & Son's #12 with an apple wood handle and London Spring Steel, extra refined blade. Researching this on the Internet I have determined that it was made pre 1930 and is one of the finest hand saws that Disston made.

I have begun restoration on this saw but need some advice. It is missing one of the brass split nut/screws. Not all of it, just the part that has the screw slot in it. Does anyone know where I might obtain one of these? The brass parts, including a beautiful medallion were almost black but cleaned up nicely and they look great.

The handle has cleaned up nicely and I put a coat of shellac on it to bring out the grain. I will use a satin wipe on poly to finish it off. The blade was rusty but cleaned up fairly well. There are a few pits but nothing that should affect the usability. The blade has 11 pts. per inch and is still fairly sharp. I should probably learn how to sharpen saws myself or find a good place to have it done.

I am feeling pretty good about my "find"

[Matt Radtke]

I would suggest not finishing it with poly. Holding a shellac or oil finished wood handle is a joy. Poly feels like the plastic that is is. Yeak.

As far as getting a new saw bolt, I'd check ebay or BadAxe: http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/bad-axe-fasteners.html

[David Weaver]

It sounds like a good saw. How long is it? If it's 24 inches or shorter, it probably has 3 of those saw nuts. If longer, 4.

I can't help you with another nut, but they're not rare, and someone should be able to. If it's got 4, total, using 3 is no problem. Probably not a big deal to use it with 2 for now as long as it's fit well, but it's nice to have at least 3 biting.

If you decide to have the saw professionally sharpened, check with Chris Vandiver or someone else who has used the services of several different sharpeners and they can help you pick a good person to send your saw to. A long saw with 11 tpi and crosscut is quite a bit of work as a first saw to sharpen, not that you can't learn to do it. I've never sent a saw anywhere, but recognize the virtue if you want to just get to using it. I'm sure my first file job made a saw that would've gotten skunked by one of Daryl Weir's saws.

[Michael N Taylor]

I have purchased some from ebay and if you google disston saw parts you should find several places that might have them.

[Gordon Eyre]

I would suggest not finishing it with poly. Holding a shellac or oil finished wood handle is a joy. Poly feels like the plastic that is is. Yeak.As far as getting a new saw bolt, I'd check ebay or BadAxe: http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/bad-axe-fasteners.htmlthanks for your input Matt.
It sounds like a good saw. How long is it? If it's 24 inches or shorter, it probably has 3 of those saw nuts. If longer, 4. I can't help you with another nut, but they're not rare, and someone should be able to. If it's got 4, total, using 3 is no problem. Probably not a big deal to use it with 2 for now as long as it's fit well, but it's nice to have at least 3 biting. If you decide to have the saw professionally sharpened, check with Chris Vandiver or someone else who has used the services of several different sharpeners and they can help you pick a good person to send your saw to. A long saw with 11 tpi and crosscut is quite a bit of work as a first saw to sharpen, not that you can't learn to do it. I've never sent a saw anywhere, but recognize the virtue if you want to just get to using it. I'm sure my first file job made a saw that would've gotten skunked by one of Daryl Weir's saws. It has four. While I realize that it can be used with just three, that would defeat the purpose of doing a restoration IMHO. I have looked on Daryl's site and that may be a good option. thanks for your input.
I have purchased some from ebay and if you google disston saw parts you should find several places that might have them.Thanks, I will definitely do some research.

[Chris Vandiver]

Gordon- Your #12 is probably a very good saw and would be worth having it sharpened profesionally, by someone who knows what they're doing(with vintage saws). An 11ppi Disston #12 in good condition is pretty valuable, so it will be worth the effort. Plus, when it's tuned up, it will be a fantastic saw! Post a photo or two.

Here is a link to saw refurbishing info and a GREAT saw sharpener; http://home.grics.net/~weir/Old_SAWS_Restored.html

[Gordon Eyre]

Gordon- Your #12 is probably a very good saw and would be worth having it sharpened profesionally, by someone who knows what they're doing(with vintage saws). An 11ppi Disston #12 in good condition is pretty valuable, so it will be worth the effort. Plus, when it's tuned up, it will be a fantastic saw! Post a photo or two. Here is a link to saw refurbishing info and a GREAT saw sharpener; http://home.grics.net/~weir/Old_SAWS_Restored.html

Thanks Chris, I have been on Daryl's website and that sounds like a good way to go. I will definitely put on a picture or two when I get the saw back together.

[Bill Haumann]

Wenzloff also sells split nut saw bolts in several sizes.
The first saw I sharpened was a crosscut Disston that I found that was my grandfather's too. It took me a while, but it came out just fine. When I checked this past Summer the wait for most of those professionally sharpening saws was over four weeks. Magnifying glasses/goggles were an incredible help.

[Mike Siemsen]

Gordon,
To be clear it is probably not a split nut but a saw bolt, which is a form of sex bolt. A split nut has the hole going all the way through and requires a screwdriver with a notch in the center of the blade to disassemble it. What diameter is the head?

[David Weaver]

Gordon - I may not have been clear, my apologies. I would definitely get on the hunt to get the fourth saw bolt on the saw, but at the same time, I wouldn't let that keep me from using it in the interim. 3 good nuts/bolts makes for a solid saw in use until you can complete it.

Go somewhat light on the restoration if you can, make it look like a 100 year-old saw that's in good authentic shape, because you can't undo it if you turn it into bright metal with the wrong polish.

Whoever does restore the saw, if I were in your shoes and wanted to resharpen it myself in the future, I would have a discussion with the sharpener about that and keep the teeth simple (flat standard crosscut with fleam and no sloped gullets). Something to keep in mind.

[Gordon Eyre]

Wenzloff also sells split nut saw bolts in several sizes.
The first saw I sharpened was a crosscut Disston that I found that was my grandfather's too. It took me a while, but it came out just fine. When I checked this past Summer the wait for most of those professionally sharpening saws was over four weeks. Magnifying glasses/goggles were an incredible help.

One of the fine gentlemen here on the forum offered to send me a nut so that problem has been resolved. I will probably have it professionally sharpened even though it may take awhile. I have other saws so that is not a big problem for me.


Gordon,
To be clear it is probably not a split nut but a saw bolt, which is a form of sex bolt. A split nut has the hole going all the way through and requires a screwdriver with a notch in the center of the blade to disassemble it. What diameter is the head?

The head diameter is 9/16" with one head domed slightly (sits proud of the handle) and the other side has a slot for a screwdriver.


Gordon - I may not have been clear, my apologies. I would definitely get on the hunt to get the fourth saw bolt on the saw, but at the same time, I wouldn't let that keep me from using it in the interim. 3 good nuts/bolts makes for a solid saw in use until you can complete it.

Go somewhat light on the restoration if you can, make it look like a 100 year-old saw that's in good authentic shape, because you can't undo it if you turn it into bright metal with the wrong polish.

Whoever does restore the saw, if I were in your shoes and wanted to resharpen it myself in the future, I would have a discussion with the sharpener about that and keep the teeth simple (flat standard crosscut with fleam and no sloped gullets). Something to keep in mind.

Hey, no problem David, I have solved the problem of the missing nut in any event. As to restoring it, I have been careful so far and just removed the rust and sanded the handle enough to remove the finish. I have one coat of shellac on and will lightly steel wool that and then figure out how I want to proceed from there. As to the medallion and bolts/nuts, I have used some polish to remove the crud and I like the way they came out. This saw is not something that I will put up for sale or try to display is some way, it is simply a saw that my dad owned and that I intend to use and probably pass on to my kids.

I will probably have it professionally sharpened so that will take that worry off my shoulders.

[David Weaver]

I will probably have it professionally sharpened so that will take that worry off my shoulders.

I think that's a good choice. Were you to find out that you needed to take off a fair bit of tooth in jointing the saw, you'd be in for a marathon as the saw must be 26 inches long if it's got 4 saw bolts.

Speaking from similar experience, restoring a 12 tpi saw that needed some extra work, it took a *very* long time - there are just so many teeth on a fine-toothed long saw. If I had to do it again, I would send it to someone with a toother. Yours probably doesn't need that kind of work, but it would still be a task to joint and sharpen them if you don't sharpen saws a lot.

Much nicer to start sharpening endeavors on a dovetail saw or on a rip panel saw with far fewer and much bigger teeth.

[Gordon Eyre]

I just sent off an Email to Daryl Weir, asking if he can get me on his schedule to sharpen my saw. Sure hope he can.

[Terry Beadle]

+1 on recommending Daryl Weir. He put all new teeth and sharpened a 10 inch 1800's dove tail saw for me and I couldn't be more pleased.

As I recall, it only took about a week or so for the whole process to occur.

He even fixed the nuts as the saw was so old and worn a screw driver wouldn't have enough slot to work.

7 dove tailed drawers later, it's still cutting like new!

[David Keller NC]

As to restoring it, I have been careful so far and just removed the rust and sanded the handle enough to remove the finish. I have one coat of shellac on and will lightly steel wool that and then figure out how I want to proceed from there. As to the medallion and bolts/nuts, I have used some polish to remove the crud and I like the way they came out. This saw is not something that I will put up for sale or try to display is some way, it is simply a saw that my dad owned and that I intend to use and probably pass on to my kids.
.

Gordon - I understand that this is your dad's saw so it isn't all that important that the monetary value be preserved, and I would be the first person to say to someone "it's your tool, do as you wish", but I thought I might mention this for future reference. Just about any restoration of an old tool beyond very gently cleaning it significantly hurts its monetary value on the collector's market. Removing the patina on brass by polishing, sanding any wooden parts, no matter how lightly, re-plating nickel plated parts, removing rust by electrolysis or de-rusting solutions (stopping active rust with the application of an oil is OK) and applying additional finishes will remove most, if not all, of the collector's value of an old tool. Some extremely rare and desirable old tools will still retain some of their collector's value even if subjected to restoration, but it will be much reduced.

[Gordon Eyre]

+1 on recommending Daryl Weir. He put all new teeth and sharpened a 10 inch 1800's dove tail saw for me and I couldn't be more pleased.

As I recall, it only took about a week or so for the whole process to occur.

He even fixed the nuts as the saw was so old and worn a screw driver wouldn't have enough slot to work.

7 dove tailed drawers later, it's still cutting like new!

Thanks Terry, I am in contact with Daryl and he has agreed to sharpen my saw. I have sent him some pictures so that he can get an idea of the condition of the teeth.


Gordon - I understand that this is your dad's saw so it isn't all that important that the monetary value be preserved, and I would be the first person to say to someone "it's your tool, do as you wish", but I thought I might mention this for future reference. Just about any restoration of an old tool beyond very gently cleaning it significantly hurts its monetary value on the collector's market. Removing the patina on brass by polishing, sanding any wooden parts, no matter how lightly, re-plating nickel plated parts, removing rust by electrolysis or de-rusting solutions (stopping active rust with the application of an oil is OK) and applying additional finishes will remove most, if not all, of the collector's value of an old tool. Some extremely rare and desirable old tools will still retain some of their collector's value even if subjected to restoration, but it will be much reduced.

Thanks a lot for your input and I am certain that you are correct in your assessment. I have tried to be gentle in the work that I have done; however, I had already polished the brass before I even thought about its long term value. The work that I have done on the handle should be fine (see pictures). This saw will be a keeper since it was my dads and will serve as a remembrance of him. I do appreciate all your advise and help.

[Gordon Eyre]

I wanted to add the following images for those of you that are interested in the condition of this Disston #12 saw.

Medallion:

http://www.pbase.com/greyflash/image/139539593/original.jpg

Handle:

http://www.pbase.com/greyflash/image/139539594/original.jpg

Saw teeth:

http://www.pbase.com/greyflash/image/139539595/original.jpg

View of etching:

http://www.pbase.com/greyflash/image/139539596/original.jpg

[Mike Holbrook]

Nice job Gordon,
Ahh it is a CC, very nice. I just won a saw at auction that I am thinking about getting someone to sharpen for me since it is CC and I think I want it rip.

Someone sent me this link to information on my saw. The information on restoring a saw is very helpful and explains why to use which products, techniques....
http://www.wkfinetools.com/tRestore/saw/sawRest-Frank/sawRest1.asp

I wonder if/what the limit is on altering the teeth on a saw? I guess the existing teeth could be ground off and a whole new set ground? Maybe I will move this question to the thread I started rather than possibly taking away from Gordon's thread.

[Gordon Eyre]

Nice job Gordon,
Ahh it is a CC, very nice. I just won a saw at auction that I am thinking about getting someone to sharpen for me since it is CC and I think I want it rip.

Someone sent me this link to information on my saw. The information on restoring a saw is very helpful and explains why to use which products, techniques....
http://www.wkfinetools.com/tRestore/saw/sawRest-Frank/sawRest1.asp

I wonder if/what the limit is on altering the teeth on a saw? I guess the existing teeth could be ground off and a whole new set ground? Maybe I will move this question to the thread I started rather than possibly taking away from Gordon's thread.

Thanks Mike. The existing teeth can be removed and new teeth cut in if there is enough width on the saw to still make that viable. I also wanted to mention that I did look at the link you gave me; however, I disagree with the advice it contains. I would not use a ROS on the etching but rather a wood block with 400 grit wet or dry paper used dry. That works well and does not destroy any of the etching as long as you do your sanding with care.

[Eric Brown]

Gordon, I think that the old belief of "don't polish it hurts the value" is outdated. The market is larger for users than collectors.
Your saw is not rare to a collector. It is rare to you as it belonged to your father. When you started the post, you mentioned the saw didn't look like much. I say fix it up into a great user that your kids might think looks like something good. Just don't over do it. A highly polished blade would look and work better, but it would also reduce the etching further. Patina doesn't make any tool work better either. However, it can help determine if something is real or fake. One note about polishing: there are two types. The first is the polish a professional restorer would do. Slow and careful. Maintaining the details. The second is the one restorers dread. It is the fast buffing (or wire wheel) done in minimal time to make it shiny. There are no real concerns about the details. So take your time cleaning/polishing. Be gentle. If your not sure, try on something else first. But by cleaning the saw up, you are also increasing the family value. Hopefully your kids will look at it and say "This belonged to my grandfather and my father restored it. Doesn't it look great!". They will then be in the position of keeping it nice.

Enjoy. Eric

[Gordon Eyre]

Gordon, I think that the old belief of "don't polish it hurts the value" is outdated. The market is larger for users than collectors. Your saw is not rare to a collector. It is rare to you as it belonged to your father. When you started the post, you mentioned the saw didn't look like much. I say fix it up into a great user that your kids might think looks like something good. Just don't over do it. A highly polished blade would look and work better, but it would also reduce the etching further. Patina doesn't make any tool work better either. However, it can help determine if something is real or fake. One note about polishing: there are two types. The first is the polish a professional restorer would do. Slow and careful. Maintaining the details. The second is the one restorers dread. It is the fast buffing (or wire wheel) done in minimal time to make it shiny. There are no real concerns about the details. So take your time cleaning/polishing. Be gentle. If your not sure, try on something else first. But by cleaning the saw up, you are also increasing the family value. Hopefully your kids will look at it and say "This belonged to my grandfather and my father restored it. Doesn't it look great!". They will then be in the position of keeping it nice. Enjoy. EricThanks Eric, thus far I have been very careful in my restoration other than the saw bolts which were polished beyond what a purist might like. As to the etching on the blade, I used 400 grit wet or dry paper (dry) and was careful not to go further than was prudent. The blade will be shipped off to a professional sharpener.As you so aptly pointed out, I intend to use the saw and then pass it on to one of my sons. I am very happy with the way it looks and once sharpened will be pleased to add this saw to my arsenal of hand tools.

[Mike Holbrook]

Gordon, thanks for the tip via your personal experience. I just invested in a bunch of 3M Stick It paper, that I imagine I can use. It was starting to look like I would not have an actual use for the finer grit, 320, maybe I just found one. Guess I will do a little testing first though. I bought a saw on the cheap to have something I could learn on, but wouldn't you know it, it looks like I may have gotten a nice saw for my $10.50.