Long grain to end grain

[Richard Hutchings]

I'm making some goblet styled candle holders and I'd like to put a contrasting ring around the middle of the cup. I would have to cut my blank where I want the ring and insert it and glue the whole thing back together, end to long grain. Is this something that is done like this or is there a better way? Should I just make my blank run with the grain on the outside also? I considered segmenting but I want to make a bunch of these without turning it into a giant project. I'll save that for later.:)

[Robert McGowen]

Speaking as someone who does a lot of segmented work, the glue joint will almost certainly fail. Segmenting won't help because you are going to have the same long grain to end grain joint. You can get a piece of wood that is the same diameter as your goblet and slice off pieces so that the joint is end grain to end grain. The alternative would be to glue your thinner boards together to make the diameter needed and then slice pieces off of that. And to answer your next possible question, the end grain joint will be plenty strong for what you are using it for. Good luck with your project.

[Richard Hutchings]

So I think your saying end grain to end grain holds together well enough to turn. That's something I can do easily enough. Thank you very much Robert.

I was also considering bending some strips and inlaying them. Sort of like binding on a guitar. I have some experiece with that.

[Barry Richardson]

Here is how I solved the problem when I wanted to add contrasting rings to a set of turned legs I was making. I simply cut grooves in the legs to seat the rings in. Then I turned the rings for a nice fit in the groove. I then simply broke the rings in half ( I used walnut, which works wel for this) then glued the rings in place and back together around the leg. the seam dissapears nicely when the break is pressed back together as long as there is no chip-out. I made a few extra rings for insurance.

[Scott Hackler]

Richard, end grain to end grain is half of all segmenting. Either the individual pieces are glued up end grain to end grain or the rings are end grain to end grain. Its a stable joint. Mix matching the grain doesnt allow for proper bonding and causes issues with wood movement.

[Richard Hutchings]

I thought segmented joints are stable due to the long grain gluing of the rings to each other. I haven't attempted a segmented anything yet but I'm surprised to hear that the rings would ever be made end grain to end grain. I need to look into it some more before I try one.


Richard, end grain to end grain is half of all segmenting. Either the individual pieces are glued up end grain to end grain or the rings are end grain to end grain. Its a stable joint. Mix matching the grain doesnt allow for proper bonding and causes issues with wood movement.

[Robert McGowen]

.......... but I'm surprised to hear that the rings would ever be made end grain to end grain.

If the rings were made up of pieces glued long grain to long grain, then the entire surface of your piece would be end grain.

[Scott Hackler]

Well I am no expert (far from it) on segmenting, but if you think about it .... unless you orientate the segmented pieces to be "end grain" out and to the inside of the vessel.... you will have two end grain glue joints on every piece. So if you orient them with the end grain straight up and down, there is end grain glue joints between every ring. If you orient the pieces end grain to be side to side, then the rings would be side grain joints.

Again, we might need the master segment turner to chime in.... paging Malcolm.... paging Malcolm..... :)

[Jon McElwain]

... paging Malcolm.... paging Malcolm..... :)

I'm laughing because I was thinking the same thing. I was just looking over at my copy of "The Art of Segmented Woodturning." I know he says a lot about making sure that all the wood is oriented the same way because of wood movement. You do not want a segment expanding and contracting in one direction while the adjacent piece is expanding and contracting in another. It is asking for a joint failure.

[Richard Hutchings]

I wasn't talking about the individual peoces, I mean the completed rings.
This is too confusing whithout pictures I guess. My termenology is probably lacking.

If the rings were made up of pieces glued long grain to long grain, then the entire surface of your piece would be end grain.

[Dale Miner]

While it is true that each segment is glued to the next segment in the ring in an almost end grain to end grain joint, the top and bottom of the segments are glued to the adjoining rings long grain to long grain. The term almost end grain to end grain is used, because as the segment is cut, it is at an angle to the grain, and some benefit from the miter is gained. But, the main strength comes from the long grain to long grain joints on the top and bottom, and the brick layed staggering of the vertical joints. A segmented vessel with all vertical joints in line will not survive much movement from moisture change.

[Richard Hutchings]

Yes. That's what i wanted to say.:)

[Reed Gray]

In the flat work world, end grain to flat grain glue joints don't work because the wood will move in different directions, which will cause the joint to fail. End grain to end grain does not work either, and I think that is because of grain structure, so in segmented work, the butt joints don't make it strong, the flat grain joints do, which is part of why you don't line up butt joints in your rings. If you want to glue end grain to end grain, you need a mechanical joint as in half lap, tongue and groove or some thing similar. If you want to cut a small recess and fill in with bent wood strips, it will work, or like Barry said, turn small rings to fit the recess, break it and glue it back together. You could burn or cut ring lines in the wood and dye inside the ring.

robo hippy