Hand-stitched rasps

[Noel Liogier]

As a new-comer to this forum, I will introduce myself with this short video showing my family know-how :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pzK2Ei19t4

If anybody is interested, please feel free to ask me any question about rasps, even the simple ones.

[John Coloccia]

In France do they teach rasp making in grade school, or something? It seems like the French are the only ones that make decent rasps anymore! Welcome, Noel.

[Chris Griggs]

Wow! Cool video Noel. I really enjoyed seeing the process. Welcome to the Creek.

[Jack Curtis]

I'd like to know if any of the teeth are more likely to break off than others. For example, I think those on the curve would be more likely due to the slightly increased space between the teeth. True?

Second, does anyone sell your products in the United States?

Jack

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Hello Noel,

nice to have you here around!

I do have a question. Since I work of a lot with rasps, I need to have good ones. A few months ago I ran across your rasps but couldn't find a supplier here in Germany. Do you sell your products in Germany?

Cheers
Klaus

[Noel Liogier]

I'd like to know if any of the teeth are more likely to break off than others. For example, I think those on the curve would be more likely due to the slightly increased space between the teeth. True?

Second, does anyone sell your products in the United States?

Jack

Hi Jack,

Never heard about teeth breaking on my rasps (I mean when using the rasps. It can happen, if due to improper storage, rasps collide with other hardened tools).
Sorry we don't have so far a dealer in the US, but I'll send you the address of our webstore in PM.

[David Nelson1]

Wow! I never even gave it a second thought how files are made. I just naturally assumed they where machine made. Explains the cost now.

[Noel Liogier]

Wow! I never even gave it a second thought how files are made. I just naturally assumed they where machine made. Explains the cost now.

Not all rasps (files are for metalworking ;)) are hand-stitched ; actually the overwhelming majority of rasps in the world are mass-made by machines in Asia.

[Shawn Stennett]

How much is?€63.53

[Zach England]

How much is?€63.53

About $88.

[David Nelson1]

Thanks for the correction Noel on both counts.

[george wilson]

You could save time and labor if you got a high speed belt grinder to help finish contouring the rasp bodies. They cut MUCH faster than a wheel grinder.

I am glad to see quality tools being made.

[Mike Holbrook]

I am wondering if your company makes floats? I have been making wooden hand planes and the Japanese Iwasaki floats/files/rasps I picked up seem to work well on the very hard Purple Hart I am working. I have learned to appreciate the more plane like way they remove wood.So far I have not ventured far into the hand made rasp arena. Lie-Nielson carries a few specialized plane floats, but the steel is apparently not very hard designed to be sharpened regularly which seems quite different than the Iwasakis. I want to be able to make totes for planes, saw handles, bow saw parts and other hand tool related pieces and handles and I am wondering what the best tools are for this close sometimes precise work.

[Noel Liogier]

I am wondering if your company makes floats? I have been making wooden hand planes and the Japanese Iwasaki floats/files/rasps I picked up seem to work well on the very hard Purple Hart I am working. I have learned to appreciate the more plane like way they remove wood.So far I have not ventured far into the hand made rasp arena. Lie-Nielson carries a few specialized plane floats, but the steel is apparently not very hard designed to be sharpened regularly which seems quite different than the Iwasakis. I want to be able to make totes for planes, saw handles, bow saw parts and other hand tool related pieces and handles and I am wondering what the best tools are for this close sometimes precise work.

No we don't produce floats. But we already had in the past that kind of requirement from some woodworkers working on hard materials. This is why we have developped the Sapphire range (http://www.liogier-france.fr/expertise-liogier?lang=en#innovationsTechniques-en). Your need being a precision work in sometimes narrow spaces, I would recommand a Modellers rasp (http://www.hand-stitched-rasp-riffler.com/saphir/rasps/effilee.html).
An australian saw handles manufacturer recently asked me to make a special Modellers rasp for him : a curved one, so he can access more easily the inner part of the saw handles. I could do that again for you if you think it is appropriate. Or you could also consider a 10" riffler (http://www.hand-stitched-rasp-riffler.com/saphir/rifflers.html), that could be another solution.

[David Weaver]

The lie-nielsen floats are actually excellent floats. They are somewhere around saw hardness, and they've made of a steel that has extreme toughness, one that's very popular with knifemakers. The importance of that is that you will only have to file off wear when you sharpen them, never nicks or breakouts in the teeth.

They can be sharpened and jointed just like a saw, which I think is also an advantage over a float that would either need to be tossed once it was dull, or sent off to a liquid honing place. Maybe running them through an acid etch would prolong them, I don't know.

That said, they (the LN floats) are specifically for cheeks of planes, beds and other areas in planemaking where a float is needed to make a clean cut. They would not be handy for totes, or the things you mention though.

I just wanted to throw that out there, because I know in the world of woodworking, things seem to go from primo to has been in a publishing cycle or a year of "expert" blogging, and that is not the case for the LN floats. They are superb, to the point that I'm not sure they could be improved.

For close and precise work, I think you will want to have some iwasaki files, perhaps some other half round double-cut files, and the gramercy saw handle maker's rasp rather than planemaker's tools, though. There are probably other quality small bent rasps and rifflers, but they will cost more than either of those two things. Some purpose-made card scrapers are also nice to have.

Also, you may want to look away from common splintery tropical woods like purpleheart and try to find fruitwoods or something similar for tool handles and planes and the like. A little bit of work with good fruitwoods and you instantly get the idea why they were so popular when people were making tools by hand. They can be moderately or very hard, but very forgiving to work at the same time.

[Mike Holbrook]

Good to hear good comments on the LN floats. I am still a little surprised by the steel hardness, 50-52 RC is softer than any of the "tough" knife steels I am aware of. Granted, RC is certainly not a good measure of steel "toughness" and the LN steel may be exceptional. I have 6-8 Iwasaki small & medium, flat & half round, fine & mediums. The Iwasaki files are what I have been using to shape my plane iron beds and tool handles. I have one Auriou Riffler but, I don't think I have the best one for the work I am doing now. I was going to buy one of the Gramercy Hand Cut Saw Handle Maker's Rasps but they have been out of stock for at least several weeks. I was also considering a smaller tapered half round rasp by Gramercy, Dragon Hand or Auriou. I have not felt like I needed a float as specialized as the LN offerings. I talked to Steve Knight about how he use to make his planes and found he used no special rasps or floats, but then if you have a CNC router...

I'm sure there are easier to work woods than Purple Heart. It was Steve's pick as a plane wood though so that is what I went with. I think it will nurture my appreciation for easier to work woods. I have actually learned to like working it, it will help one develop patience.

Noel's suggestions look attractive too. I think the suggestion of a curved half round sort of like the special rasp Gramercy makes for handles would be the best tool for my totes and handles. I guess Liogier takes US orders?

[Tony Shea]

Awesome video noel. I love seeing handmade tools such as this and showing us how it's done. We often take for granted this process and lose our consideration for the difference in quality between handmade tools and machine made. Thank you for sharing the process. I am in need of another quality rasp and will look at your direction.

[David Weaver]

I think I've seen Noel's rasps listed on EU sites, and you can order them, but you might have to pay VAT. It would be ideal if he could get someone over here to carry them.

S7 is the steel the LN floats are made of. It is probably driven up closer to it's max for knives, which is in the mid 50s. I have seen S7 knives listed as being in the 60 hardness range, but I would imagine they're brittle (I saw a forum entry saying just that for a knife that was specified as 58-60 hardness with that steel). It is a shock resistant steel, which has obvious benefits on a knife edge that might find itself impacted on something. I think Lie Nielsen probably used it because it has better properties at a filing hardness than any of the other standard tool steels. If they wanted to use 1095 or 01 or something else more common, they could've, so either LN or Larry Williams had something to do with deciding on a more expensive steel.

S7s popularity with knives may go away now that CPM steel is available all over the place. Note even then that a lot of the CPM suggestions for knives are softer than you'd expect if you read a lot of woodworking catalogs where the sky is the limit, like in the high 50s for CPM stuff in knives, it's just a whole lot tougher when the limit isn't pushed with respect to hardness. We are probably over the line with some of our woodworking tools, and getting chipout in some irons because of it - I know I've seen George mention that before.

One other tool that you will probably want to make to do beds on planes - a blunted chisel - maybe one 1/2 inch and one 1 inch, to use as a push scraper. Make the front 90 degrees instead of having a bevel angle and polish it like you would a sharpened chisel, just at that 90 degree angle instead, and relieve the corners a tiny bit (very slight camber). You can push it on a plane bed and remove material very accurately and more easily than you can with a float, where you'd likely be gnashing the first tooth of the float into doing most of the work, anyway. If you have the means, you can heat and quench the chisel tip and not temper it so that it's very hard. At 90 degrees, hardness without toughness is fine for working on wood, it'll stay sharp for a long time.

That is one of Bill Carter's tips for having a very nice (and inexpensive, or free) planemaking tool. I personally don't like using any floats across the endgrain of a bed - I much favor the way that type of scraper works, and I don't have to apply undue pressure or flex to try to get the float to only cut in one spot.

The harder the wood, the bigger the advantage to that type of tool, and if you have a paring chisel style handle on it, you can anchor your hand on your sternum and lean into it and take a pretty good cut if you want also.

[David Weaver]

If anybody is interested, please feel free to ask me any question about rasps, even the simple ones.

It's always wonderful to see production work that is still done by skilled hands and with discretion.

If a video like you've made showing fine craftsmanship combined with swiftness doesn't inspire people to work by hand, I don't know what would.

Please let us know if someone in the US will pick up some of your offerings and offer them for sale in the US.

[Mike Holbrook]

Noel, sorry to move the discussion off center but I would be interested in hearing how/if it might be possible to order the curved half round rasp.

I think my Scrapizashi short sword may be a similar steel David, SR-77. I think S7 is one of the steels the Bussey knife companies use, but all these steels seem to have slight number variations lately..I like the idea of the blunt chisel, I have been trying to figure out how to get a scraper at that end grain in the plane bed.

[Jack Curtis]

...One other tool that you will probably want to make to do beds on planes - a blunted chisel - maybe one 1/2 inch and one 1 inch, to use as a push scraper. Make the front 90 degrees instead of having a bevel angle and polish it like you would a sharpened chisel, just at that 90 degree angle instead, and relieve the corners a tiny bit (very slight camber). You can push it on a plane bed and remove material very accurately and more easily than you can with a float, where you'd likely be gnashing the first tooth of the float into doing most of the work, anyway. If you have the means, you can heat and quench the chisel tip and not temper it so that it's very hard. At 90 degrees, hardness without toughness is fine for working on wood, it'll stay sharp for a long time.

That is one of Bill Carter's tips for having a very nice (and inexpensive, or free) planemaking tool. I personally don't like using any floats across the endgrain of a bed - I much favor the way that type of scraper works, and I don't have to apply undue pressure or flex to try to get the float to only cut in one spot.

The harder the wood, the bigger the advantage to that type of tool, and if you have a paring chisel style handle on it, you can anchor your hand on your sternum and lean into it and take a pretty good cut if you want also.

That's a very handy tool to have. I've made them by blunt grinding a couple of old chisels. They're essentially a one tooth float, which I've found great for leveling the abutments. Also for plane making bedding, I have a 36mm ultra thin Japanese Tasai chisel that I like excessively.

Jack

[Jim Koepke]

Noel,

Welcome to the Creek and thanks for posting the video.

I really like the few hand stitched rasps in my possession. Hopefully by the time I have the ability to purchase a few more yours will be easily available here in the U.S.

jtk

[James Owen]

I think I've seen Noel's rasps listed on EU sites, and you can order them, but you might have to pay VAT. It would be ideal if he could get someone over here to carry them....

You shouldn't have to pay the VAT, if you're a foreign customer; unless things have drastically changed, European countries don't charge VAT for items being shipped outside of that country or the EU (if an EU member). The flip side to that coin is that the fees for shipping to the US from European countries can to dig pretty deep into your wallet.....

[David Weaver]

Sr-77 appears to be a variation of S7, I had to look it up.

I have s7 steel in my basement, I thought I might file some floats and have it professionally heat treated (long ago) and added it to an order of O1. Now I can't figure out what to do with it. Never had a knife of it though. Supposedly it is the or one of the hardest steels to actually "break" a knife, but not great at holding keenness. Hard to break is handy on something like a bed float where someone will lean over on the float and flex it to get the teeth to bite.

Would be useful on a sword, I guess, to not hit a metal object with it and have part of it clanking across the room.

You'll be very pleased with the blunt push chisel on endgrain. It'll make shavings like a plane.

[David Weaver]

You shouldn't have to pay the VAT, if you're a foreign customer; unless things have drastically changed, European countries don't charge VAT for items being shipped outside of that country or the EU (if an EU member). The flip side to that coin is that the fees for shipping to the US from European countries can to dig pretty deep into your wallet.....

I don't think I've ever ordered anything from anywhere other than the UK (well, that and japan). Any ballpark on the postage? I was thinking about lobbying my wife to get a couple of these rasps for me, I can look on my own, though, I guess. UK rates for stuff that's not too big are pretty good. Rates from japan on stuff less than 2kg are also excellent and the service is fast.

Glad to not pay VAT, I didn't know that. I just remember going through sites that had the price with VAT, and didn't say anything about being able to cart an item without having the vat included in the price. I did notice last year one of the old tool dealers in the UK did change his page to say that he was going to remove the VAT from his web prices.

[Gordon Eyre]

Very impressive work done by your family. Loved the video clip.

[Rick Fisher]

What a great video..

I only own 3 rasps ( which are any good ) .. they are all made in France by Auriou. When I first tried them, they where so much nicer than the Chiwanese one I had been using that I threw the Chiwanese one out, knowing I would probably never use it again.

2 of mine are half round, 1 is a 12" x 6, the other is 10" x 9 and the last is 9" round x 9 ..

I wish I had one a bit finer than the 10" x 9 .. The 12" x 6 hogs off material and the 10" x 9 is used to smooth it out a bit..

I know very little about rasps.. just use these and do the best I can.. Would it seem reasonable to have a 10" x 12 or 13 ?

I am not adverse to trying one or two of Noel's rasps.. Auriou seems nice and they are both French , I looked at Grammercy but was turned off by them being made in Pakistan.. I am sure they are fine tools, I just like North American or European ...

[Rick Fisher]

I have a question for Noel..

What is the difference between Traditional, Titan or Sapphire ?

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

Welcome Noel and thanks for posting the video.

I need a decent rasp. Another tool to save up for. All I have are a couple of super cheap generic rasps, they're horrid to work with so I always find some other way. I hadn't thought about how they've got to be like other tools: I also never pick up the super cheap generic block plane I got before I knew better, yet I love working with the few half decent planes I have.



One other tool that you will probably want to make to do beds on planes - a blunted chisel - maybe one 1/2 inch and one 1 inch, to use as a push scraper.


Once I understood it is how large the radius of the edge is, not so much the angle of the overall bevel, so you could have a super-sharp yet 90 degree edge I found a lot of use for this approach. I just sharpened the sides of a small very cheap mortise chisel to use as a rigid scraper to work down in the throat of a plane, thinking of wherever I read about this before (either David here or Bill Carter, most likely).

[Jack Curtis]

Thanks, Noel. It seems to me the points on the round would be further apart, slightly, but probably different punches are used for the rounded areas.

Jack

[Jim Belair]

The Best Things handles "hand-cut French rasps" with their house brand. They seem to be at about the Liogier price point. I wonder if they are made by them?

http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/hand_cut_french_cabinet_rasps.htm

[Noel Liogier]

Noel, sorry to move the discussion off center but I would be interested in hearing how/if it might be possible to order the curved half round rasp.


Yes, I do produce curved rasps. They are like Cabinet Maker rasps, but curved and teethed only on one side. You can find it here :
http://www.hand-stitched-rasp-riffler.com/tradition/woodworking/rasps/cintree.html

If you want precisely a Half-round rasp curved (half-round rasps have sections slightly different than cabinet markers rasps : they are "more round" so to say), no problem to produce this special rasp too. Just let me know.

[Noel Liogier]

You shouldn't have to pay the VAT, if you're a foreign customer; unless things have drastically changed, European countries don't charge VAT for items being shipped outside of that country or the EU (if an EU member). The flip side to that coin is that the fees for shipping to the US from European countries can to dig pretty deep into your wallet.....

I confirm that we don't have to charge VAT when shipping to the US (or any country outside EU).
When shipping to the US, we charge a fix 12 euros (roughly $16) for shipping fees, no matter the state of destination or the quantity.

[Noel Liogier]

What a great video..


2 of mine are half round, 1 is a 12" x 6, the other is 10" x 9 and the last is 9" round x 9 ..

I wish I had one a bit finer than the 10" x 9 .. The 12" x 6 hogs off material and the 10" x 9 is used to smooth it out a bit..

I know very little about rasps.. just use these and do the best I can.. Would it seem reasonable to have a 10" x 12 or 13 ?


Maybe you should think first about changing the shape/model of rasp before considering different lengths or different stitching grains. I assume all yours are Cabinet Makers rasps. It is very useful to have different form of rasps as a rasp basically shape the wood according to its own shape.

[Noel Liogier]

I have a question for Noel..

What is the difference between Traditional, Titan or Sapphire ?

The shape of the rasps in itself is the same, indifferent to the range.
The difference are :
- the hardness : Titan is harder than Traditional, Sapphire is harder than Titan. This improved hardness increase the bite of the rasps and its longivity.
- Titan and Sapphire are much better protected from rust than Tradition
- their surface help to make the cutted material slip on it, preventing the rasp to clog, which is important in the comfort of use, also to keep a good biting power will using it and also to improve the smoothness of the obtained surface.

Some more info here :
http://www.liogier-france.fr/expertise-liogier?lang=en#innovationsTechniques-en

[Noel Liogier]

Thanks, Noel. It seems to me the points on the round would be further apart, slightly, but probably different punches are used for the rounded areas.

Jack

Sorry Jack, my english is not so good and I am not sure I understood exactly what you mean.

[Noel Liogier]

Very impressive work done by your family. Loved the video clip.


Thanks to you Gordon and all the others for your very kind words.

[george wilson]

Here are some rifflers I made. The closeup is not too good,but you can see the teeth. Starting from the left,#1,13,and 16 are commercial rifflers. The type I make are the ones you can't buy,like the little "deer foot" ones see in the close up. The 2nd one from the left is a 1/32" ball end riffler. Its other end is a 1/16" ball. The 3rd one in the closeup(from the left),shows 18th.C. type detail that used to be put on these tools.

I'd never again be without a high speed belt grinder. My Wilton Square Wheel grinder is 4 or 5 times faster than a wheel grinder,and runs cooler. There are much faster types,too. At a machine show,I saw a demonstrator stick a piece of 2" angle iron against a belt. In about 4 seconds,the square ended angle iron was ground off at a 45º angle!! His ran at about 8000 feet per minute. Mine runs about half that,but is still a very fast grinder.

I have no plans to make files or rasps for general sale. I'm glad someone is making them,though. We need them.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Too funny, George........part-way through that cool video, I found myself saying "I betcha George Wilson makes his own.........". :D :D

You never disappoint, sir, you never disappoint.

[David Weaver]

I like the file work on the shank of rasp #2.

[george wilson]

Do you mean riffler#2?

[David Weaver]

Wood scratcher #2. Yes, for those of us less refined who think of it as "big rasps and little rasps".

[george wilson]

You're not that unrefined,David.:) I like the detail on #3 in the closeup best myself. I MAY have seen it in an 18th.C. catalog,but can't recall. Or,it could just have come from working in a museum forever.

[Jack Curtis]

Yes, I do produce curved rasps. They are like Cabinet Maker rasps, but curved and teethed only on one side. You can find it here :
http://www.hand-stitched-rasp-riffler.com/tradition/woodworking/rasps/cintree.html...

What a beauty.

Jack

[Rick Fisher]

Liogier Rasps website cart has a place for a discount code.. Don't we have some members here who are able to dig those codes up .. ?

lol

[Jack Curtis]

Sorry Jack, my english is not so good and I am not sure I understood exactly what you mean.

There's more space on a curved surface, therefore, if one is stitching a curved area as a flat area is stitched, there would be more space between the points. Therefore, allowing the rasped piece to dig in slightly better. However, if the angle is changed, or stitching density is increased, or the points made thicker at the base, no problem.

Jack

PS $16 for shipping? That's a good deal, maybe I'll put in an order in the next couple of weeks.

[Mike Holbrook]

Interesting that Noel's curved rasp curves the opposite direction vs the Gramercy rasp. I also found a Sage Leaf rasp which looks very interesting. The description says "....(two sides mid-round but with different radii) is very popular in the world of violin making and for finishing curves." This sounds like the two sides of the rasp are functional but with varied profiles. I guess this would be helpful in shaping transitions on the curved and rounded handles. I wonder if this might be an even better rasp for handles. I am also curious about the extremely hard surfaces available on these rasps. In my experience with knife, chisel & plane blades there is a trade off between hardness & toughness. The very hard steels tend to be more brittle which translates to them chipping at the edge when used against hard materials. Softer steels I believe can be "tougher" as they tend to bend instead of chipping. So I am wondering about using the Titan or Sapphire steels on very hard woods. Would the harder steels tend to loose teeth? The text with the Titan & Sapphire rasps states that they last much longer than the softer steel. I am just a little confused.

[Noel Liogier]

Interesting that Noel's curved rasp curves the opposite direction vs the Gramercy rasp. I also found a Sage Leaf rasp which looks very interesting. The description says "....(two sides mid-round but with different radii) is very popular in the world of violin making and for finishing curves." This sounds like the two sides of the rasp are functional but with varied profiles. I guess this would be helpful in shaping transitions on the curved and rounded handles. I wonder if this might be an even better rasp for handles. I am also curious about the extremely hard surfaces available on these rasps. In my experience with knife, chisel & plane blades there is a trade off between hardness & toughness. The very hard steels tend to be more brittle which translates to them chipping at the edge when used against hard materials. Softer steels I believe can be "tougher" as they tend to bend instead of chipping. So I am wondering about using the Titan or Sapphire steels on very hard woods. Would the harder steels tend to loose teeth? The text with the Titan & Sapphire rasps states that they last much longer than the softer steel. I am just a little confused.

I just sent a couple of Titan rasps to a quite famous Australian plane maker called HNT Gordon (http://www.hntgordon.com.au) for a review. He is working with some australian wood species that are known to be amongst the hardest existing. Let's wait for the verdict !

[Noel Liogier]

Liogier Rasps website cart has a place for a discount code.. Don't we have some members here who are able to dig those codes up .. ?

lol

Hi Rick,

Don't waste your time looking for it.
Here they are :

Star5 : 5% discount for an order of 3 pieces
Star10 : 10% for 6 pcs
Star15 : 15% for 10 pcs

[Rick Fisher]

Thanks Noel..

[Mike Holbrook]

Noel, I do not mean to question what the site says about those products. I just do not understand how these particular tools perform, apparently quite differently, than basic principals I had come to rely on regarding metal hardness/toughness. Certainly I am no expert on this subject. I guess my question is whether or not there are trade offs with these harder steels that I should take into consideration before ordering a file for working hard hardwoods? For instance, is there a greater risk of chipping off "teeth" with the harder steels vs the softer steel? Certainly a rasp does not undergo the abuse of say a jack hammer's blade, and since I doubt these tools are made to be resharpened maybe hardness is much more important than "toughness"? Maybe the loss of a few very small "teeth" among many is much less important in the long run than how well all the rest of those teeth wear away hard woods without getting dull? Certainly in the case of Japanese saw teeth we run into a similar situation. The teeth on some of these production model saws are hardened with a process that makes them very hard but they are not made to be resharpened. I like the Japanese saw blades that are designed this way and have no problem replacing blades vs sharpening them. I did break the tip & one or two teeth off one blade which had little effect on the saws performance. I used it that way for years before I got around to replacing the blade recently. Western saws I think are typically softer steel designed to be resharpened regularly. I think the softer steel also makes it possible to set teeth without risk of breaking them.

So in this context I am wondering whether each of the three offered steels has particular conditions in which it may perform better or whether I simply have to consider whether to pay more for a more expensive steel that will simply last longer?

I am also wondering about that Sage Leaf file vs tool handles with curves and hollowed out areas. I am working on plane bodies, totes, saw handles, tool handles, bow saw bodies...and looking for a better tool than a simple flat or rounded float, especially for getting into the tight curvy places.

I look forward to hearing Gordon's opinions on these rasps, but will probably order something to try before that information becomes available.

[Rick Fisher]

I have read that you can sharpen wood rasps by dipping them in Muriatic Acid, although I have never tried it .. I think I read it on a Ferrier website, they made a tube out of PVC pipe with a cap on the bottom and let the metal part of the rasp soak in Muriatic for a few hours. I have also heard there are companies that sharpen them.

With that in mind, buying a really good one makes more sense.

[Mike Holbrook]

Rick, I wonder if "sharpening" in a more conventional sense is even part of the design of these tools. In the video it looks like the teeth are raised by hand with a small chisel like tool before the metal is hardened. At least in the video, I do not see that those small teeth are sharpened, unless there is some chemical process, I don't even know how you could sharpen such small teeth. Once the metal is hardened, especially to some of the hardnesses these tools are apparently taken to, I am thinking a chemical process like you mention might be the only alternative. Again this sort of reminds me of the design of some Japanese saw teeth. On the other hand I understand that the more expensive Japanese saws fall back to softer metal that can be resharpened with more conventional files or stones where in the case of these rasps the less expensive tools appear to be softer steel and the better/more expensive tools are the harder steel. Interesting reversal of steel & hardness designs for tolls functioning in differing ways I imagine.

[Rick Fisher]

Mike, I have a few Auriou rasps and I cannot see them going dull in the near future.. I assume the Liogier would be equal in quality.

Consider them like better quality table saw blades, they cost $100 and need to be sharpened after lots of use.

Without actually having had one go dull, I have to assume they go rounded on the ends ? If they where sandpaper, they would fracture and resharpen themselves.. Not sure what happens with a rasp. I love the idea of being able to order whatever length and grit I choose..

[Kent A Bathurst]

I have also heard there are companies that sharpen them.

Boggs Tool near LA provides this service [boggstool dot com]. I haven't yet dulled a rasp, but I have bought from them and have nothing but high marks to report, and have read very good reports on them from others. When the day comes, I will send mine to them for sharpening.

[Jack Curtis]

...On the other hand I understand that the more expensive Japanese saws fall back to softer metal that can be resharpened with more conventional files or stones where in the case of these rasps the less expensive tools appear to be softer steel and the better/more expensive tools are the harder steel. Interesting reversal of steel & hardness designs for tolls functioning in differing ways I imagine.

Mike, in the case of Japanese saws, the differences are due to machine made vs hand made. The machines can shape, sharpen, and harden. The hands can shape and sharpen, but not such hardened steels. Also, the hands can shape very sophisticated forms with all sorts of tapering and the like; but again, they couldn't do that with highly hardened steels.

Jack

[Noel Liogier]

I have read that you can sharpen wood rasps by dipping them in Muriatic Acid, although I have never tried it ..

I have big doubts on acid being able to sharpen a rasp. According to me the acid can only clean the rasp, which makes it feel sharper. But if you let it too long in the acid it could also dull the rasp (by "eating" the teeth that are the part with most surface and less material). So the better solution is to clean your rasps often enough with a brush so you do not need to do it once in a while with acid.

[Noel Liogier]

Noel, I do not mean to question what the site says about those products. I just do not understand how these particular tools perform, apparently quite differently, than basic principals I had come to rely on regarding metal hardness/toughness. Certainly I am no expert on this subject. I guess my question is whether or not there are trade offs with these harder steels that I should take into consideration before ordering a file for working hard hardwoods? For instance, is there a greater risk of chipping off "teeth" with the harder steels vs the softer steel? Certainly a rasp does not undergo the abuse of say a jack hammer's blade, and since I doubt these tools are made to be resharpened maybe hardness is much more important than "toughness"? Maybe the loss of a few very small "teeth" among many is much less important in the long run than how well all the rest of those teeth wear away hard woods without getting dull? Certainly in the case of Japanese saw teeth we run into a similar situation. The teeth on some of these production model saws are hardened with a process that makes them very hard but they are not made to be resharpened. I like the Japanese saw blades that are designed this way and have no problem replacing blades vs sharpening them. I did break the tip & one or two teeth off one blade which had little effect on the saws performance. I used it that way for years before I got around to replacing the blade recently. Western saws I think are typically softer steel designed to be resharpened regularly. I think the softer steel also makes it possible to set teeth without risk of breaking them.

So in this context I am wondering whether each of the three offered steels has particular conditions in which it may perform better or whether I simply have to consider whether to pay more for a more expensive steel that will simply last longer?

I am also wondering about that Sage Leaf file vs tool handles with curves and hollowed out areas. I am working on plane bodies, totes, saw handles, tool handles, bow saw bodies...and looking for a better tool than a simple flat or rounded float, especially for getting into the tight curvy places.

I look forward to hearing Gordon's opinions on these rasps, but will probably order something to try before that information becomes available.

Hi Mike,

Maybe my explanations have been a bit confusing : Traditional, Titan and Sapphire ranges are all made out of the same steel. Titan and Sapphire rasps have an extra operation, two different special coatings that improves some of their specifications.

As regards the model, my "curved rasps" are convex, but I can easily do a concave rasp for you. I have done this already for others saw handles makers or tool handles (with hollow part) makers. The price would be the same as a curved (convex) rasp. An other (cheaper) solution is using 10" or 12" rifflers, that according to me, offers a greater variety of shapes.

[Jack Curtis]

So, Noel, what do you do with dull rasps?

Jack

[Noel Liogier]

I scrap it and buy a new one, but a good one this time. :D

More seriously, it is not that easy, unless you are a very heavy user, to dull a high quality rasps, provided you take good care of it (by using it, cleaning it and storing it correctly).

Most of the people I know, even professional users, use the same rasps for years and years, without feeling the necessity to replace it. And those would finally achieve to dull it usually don't mind to buy a new one after some many years of good services.

[Noel Liogier]

Here's a recent and rather positive review in a magazine you may know :

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools/new-to-the-usa-source-for-hand-cut-rasps

[Jim Belair]

I look forward to reading the full review. And I do hope you are vigorously pursuing a North American distributor in light of all this buzz.

Jim B

[David Keller NC]

Has anyone else had some trouble viewing Noel's shopping site? I can get to a specific class of rasps (cabintemaker's, boot-makers, etc...), but when I try to select the range, size or stitching grain, the background of the web page goes dark (much like you'd see when pulling up a pop-up window), but it gets stuck there. I've tried using IE 32-bit (my default is IE 64 bit), and disabling firewall software, but no luck. Anybody got any ideas?

[David Weaver]

The site works fine on firefox, for me at least. I haven't made any orders, but I played around through options and had no troubles.

[Jim Neeley]

David,

I had the problem with my IE until I clocked on the "compatibility view" button, located just to the right of the URL entry box. The icon is of a torn sheet of paper.

FWIW, I'm using IE8.

Jim

[Rick Fisher]

Works fine with Google Chrome..

Same here, I have fiddled around with it but not actually ordered.. lol

[David Keller NC]

David,

I had the problem with my IE until I clocked on the "compatibility view" button, located just to the right of the URL entry box. The icon is of a torn sheet of paper.

FWIW, I'm using IE8.

Jim

Yep, that was it - Thanks Jim!

BTW - A comment about the tradeoff b/t hardness and toughness. If the Titan and Saphire lines are coated, that gets around some of the trade-offs in steel between hardness and resilience, since the coating can be made considerably harder than steel can be usably tempered to, while leaving the underlying steel supporting structure somewhat softer to avoid brittleness. An example of this technique is often applied to drill bits - Titanium Nitride coatings. The only downside I can see to this is that once the rasp with the coating is actually dulled, sending it to an abrasive sharpening service like Boggs would likely strip away the surface. But then you'd still have a sharp rasp with an "ordinary" steel surface, so perfectly usable.

[Jim Neeley]

Interesting thought, David, and I agree... but I also wonder how quickly this would occur. TiN coated drill bits see high temperatures in use (unless Neandered <g>) which accelerates wear, unlike a hand-powered rasp. It wouldn't surprise me to find the coating having a long life. Additionally, as Noel says, if it withstands years of heavy use before it dulls... Hmmmm....

[george wilson]

I use coated end milling cutters all the time. When the rasp becomes dull,you can be assured that any useful coating has gone from the cutting edge. Look at it through 10X. Those coatings are quite thin. You will see shiny steel on the cutting edge if the rasp has dulled. Some of the benefits of coatings on milling cutters is that they reduce a false edge of metal building up. Titanium nitride is about 70 rockwell C, though I don't know at all what coating the rasps might have. TIN coatings are a beautiful golden color,so that's not it. There are several coatings out there by now. Some are dark. I have seen chrome(THIN) plating on cheap Chinese rasps years ago. It was so thin,I at first thought it was a thin spray of silver paint. When I was young,Sears sold "chrome clad" files. I didn't like them at the time because they didn't seem as sharp as uncoated ones. But,I was young,and could have been quite wrong in my perception at the time.

That said,I have found the OLD fine Nicholson rasps to be way too grabby until they get a little dulled from use.

[Larry Temins]

GREAT RASPS and FANTASTIC SERVICE!!

I ordered 2 rasps, cabinet maker #9 and flat iron #9 from Noel 10 days ago, on a Friday. Within 30 minutes of ordering on-line I received an email explaining that they did heat treatment on Thursdays so my order would ship the following Friday. This morning Canada Post was at my door step with the package. Fantastic service, faster shipping than ordering within Canada or from the USA.
Comparing to my Auriou rasp, both #9's, the teeth on the Liogier appear to be deeper set and sharper.

Noel, thanks for the great rasps and the excellent service from easy on-line ordering, timely email confirmation to delivery.

Larry

[Steve Branam]

Very cool! It's also good to see that there is at least one more specialty producer in this very specialized area. I just started using the Gramercy rasps, and as with other tools, the difference using a premium tool over the cheap junk is pure joy. For those worried about the Gramercy quality coming from Pakistan, while I'm certainly no expert, I'll point out that they're made by hand by one guy who specializes in them, so it seems the craftsmanship is on par with what we see here; it's not a third-world sweatshop churning out crappy castings of questionable metallurgy.

Noel, a question I have is, what is the stitching tool made of? It's amazing to see one strike of the hammer raising a perfect sharp tooth (bet it takes some time to develop that skill!). I realize that's done before they are hardened.

And looking at the website, interesting to see the surgical rasps! My wife is a surgical nurse specializing in orthopedics, so I've seen videos of these in use. Sometimes the surgeons have to be real artists getting implants to fit, more sculptor than doctor. Her hospital also repairs failed orthopedic implants. Talk about fine joinery!

[Noel Liogier]

Noel, a question I have is, what is the stitching tool made of? It's amazing to see one strike of the hammer raising a perfect sharp tooth (bet it takes some time to develop that skill!). I realize that's done before they are hardened.


The punches are home-made of course (like the hammers actually), we call them "grain of barley" because of the shape we give to the tip. They are very sharp and peaked, and needs to be resharpen often to maintain the quality of the teeth. The blank of the rasp is annealed before hand-stitching to get the steel softer and de-stressed (not sure this french word as any meaning in english, sorry). All these elements are very important for the resulting quality. Also the blank is mirror-polished before hand-stitching, otherwise any defects of the surface before raising the teeth could end up at the top of it after hand-stitching. OK I'll stop here before annoying everybody with details... but feel free to ask if someone as any question.


PS : there is an on-going pass-around review amongst member of another forum ; you can see it here (http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post635145.html#p635145).

[Erwin Graween]

Hello.
+1 With Larry.

I own two of theses rasps and they're very good.
What is impressive is that even with a fine stitching (I have a 250 mm rasp with stich #9) the amount of material removed is important. They're fast to work with and They produce very fine shavings. So great ease of control.
Living in France I bought them in a store in Paris, unhandled. So buying online they're provided handled, which is even better.

So I'm glad to see that for once, it's one of our products that is exported :p over to you guys! I've imported so much tools from USA or Canada, that I'm happy things are reversed at least once in a while !
I'm glad also to ear that the service provided is great. But I hope Liogier will find a distributor for Americas. His products deserve it.

Regards.

[Erwin Graween]

Bonjour Noel,


de-stressed (not sure this french word as any meaning in english, sorry)
Just to let you know that I think, this can be translated by 'stress relieved'. Other creekers might confirm.

Regards.

[Brent VanFossen]

...this can be translated by 'stress relieved'...

That's the phrase I would use.

[Bob Lang]

So what else are you guys keeping to yourselves in France?

Bob Lang

[Noel Liogier]

So what else are you guys keeping to yourselves in France?

Bob Lang

:)

Well I guess that if you have already tasted the wine and tested the rasps, we haven't much left to export, except maybe our worldwide recognized skills to go on strike each time the sun is shining or our long-time developped and cherished talent to complain all the time (just as I am doing right now I guess...) ;)

[John Coloccia]

:)

Well I guess that if you have already tasted the wine and tested the rasps, we haven't much left to export, except maybe our worldwide recognized skills to go on strike each time the sun is shining or our long-time developped and cherished talent to complain all the time (just as I am doing right now I guess...) ;)

I'd love a good croque monsieur. Somehow when I order a "grilled cheese and ham sandwich" here, it's just not the same. I also wouldn't mind some good tartar and wine for lunch. You can keep your cheese shops....*PHEEW*

[Jack Curtis]

Well I guess that if you have already tasted the wine and tested the rasps, we haven't much left to export, except maybe our worldwide recognized skills to go on strike each time the sun is shining or our long-time developped and cherished talent to complain all the time (just as I am doing right now I guess...) ;)

There's always your cinema, and clothes, and cheese, and...

Jack

[Chris Friesen]

I have big doubts on acid being able to sharpen a rasp. According to me the acid can only clean the rasp, which makes it feel sharper.

I think the idea of acid "sharpening" is that the acid disolves a layer from the front and back faces of each "tooth", thus leaving a sharper edge where the two faces meet.

[seth lowden]

:)Well I guess that if you have already tasted the wine and tested the rasps, we haven't much left to export, except maybe our worldwide recognized skills to go on strike each time the sun is shining or our long-time developped and cherished talent to complain all the time (just as I am doing right now I guess...) ;)Based on that response, I decided to be a customer!

[Bob Smalser]

I'm certainly impressed with the high-end hand work, and surprised one of these rasps can be had for under a hundred dollars. But wonder if some of that expensive effort is misplaced, and if you couldn't be even more competitive with Nicholson, probably your main competitor here? I'm told their quality has recently taken a down turn.

I understand the advantages of hand-stitching by a highly-skilled, highly-paid craftsman. But freehand grinding and polishing the basic shape of the rasp? I suspect getting all those tapered curves symmetrical and fair is an even higher skill than hand-stitching...but one that could be done better by CNC machines, and the skilled shapers retrained as stitchers to keep up with the machines.

Perhaps you also could save overhead on metal files. From 1:29 to 2:00 in the tape the worker appears to be dragging the file backwards over the work piece rather than lifting it slightly on the return stroke. That means almost half the wear and tear on the file is unnecessary, and wasted.

Files and rasps remain bread-and-butter tools in most commercial shops. But like your metal files, are also commodies. We need a good alternative to Nicholson and other toolmakers...but that alternative would sell better if the next step up wasn't over twice the price of a Nicholson.

[Rick Fisher]

I think the highest end hand tools are always sold to a niche market. That market is always bigger than people first think, but a niche just the same.
The market for machine manufactured products is huge, but there will always be people who want something special. They will buy because they see value in a person's labor and almost feel like " a part of " by becoming a customer.

Take away the " extra labor " of a hand stitched rasp or a Japanese chisel and you are left with just a rasp or a chisel. In the end, the niche customer does not buy based on price but heritage and uniqueness.

Logier could save money and lower retails by using CNC machinery, but they could do even better by moving to China or Pakistan ( like another rasp maker) .. but they would lose that niche market, and then price would be their only way to compete.

Finding a cheaper way has become a national disaster in some countries.. If Logier has a market which is willing to pay a premium for heritage and a special product, it would be a shame to follow in the footsteps of so many of our factories who started looking for a cheaper way and ended up on the hooks of Home Depot or Lowe's with a retail price ending in a 7 or a 9..

Cheaper is the goal of the company that has no other medium but cheap..

[Jim Koepke]

I think the highest end hand tools are always sold to a niche market. That market is always bigger than people first think, but a niche just the same.
The market for machine manufactured products is huge, but there will always be people who want something special. They will buy because they see value in a person's labor and almost feel like " a part of " by becoming a customer.

Take away the " extra labor " of a hand stitched rasp or a Japanese chisel and you are left with just a rasp or a chisel. In the end, the niche customer does not buy based on price but heritage and uniqueness.

Having dozens of machine made rasps and just a few hand stitched rasps, my experience tells me different. My Nicholson #50 patterns rasp is nowhere near as good at making a smooth surface as the hand stitched rasps in my accumulation.

I haven't seen machine made rasps in the finer grain ratings. Then if you want a detail tool like a riffler, I have no idea where to look. The big box stores don't carry them. The local small hardware stores don't carry them.

When you get right down to it, wood working is a niche market.

jtk

[Chris Friesen]

I understand the advantages of hand-stitching by a highly-skilled, highly-paid craftsman. But freehand grinding and polishing the basic shape of the rasp? I suspect getting all those tapered curves symmetrical and fair is an even higher skill than hand-stitching...but one that could be done better by CNC machines, and the skilled shapers retrained as stitchers to keep up with the machines.

This. As the production quantity increases at some point it should make sense from an efficiency standpoint to automate parts of preparation of the basic blank. The downside is that it might result in fewer people being employed unless the quantity sold also increases significantly.

[John Coloccia]

So now we're all experts in rasp making? No offense to anyone, and I mean that sincerely, but it seems a bit odd to me that in the Neanderthal Haven we have a craftsman making a world class rasp at a reasonable price, and we're trying to tell him how to make his operation more efficient by using CNC so that we can maybe buy a cheaper rasp.

...and then we will all chime in on the "look at all this cheap crap at Target but I can't make a living selling hand made furniture" thread and nod our head in agreement at how no one appreciates craftsmanship anymore.

We already have mediocre, but usable, rasps in the <$100 range....far better than the current Nicholsons. Why compete with Volkswagen when you're making Jaguars?

edit:
Just to give a concrete example, ANY of these blow away the new Nicholsons
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Files/Dragon_Hand-cut_Rasps.html?actn=100101&xst=3&xsr=21356&tgtiid=4151

[Erwin Graween]

Hi.

I understand Bob was talking about placing the value added effort on the right places. And giving his opinion about the sanding job or how to optimising the job done.
But I join Jim, Rick and the others, for all the tradition, knowledge and handmade part of the price included in these excellent tools.
Also like it was said, the quality of the result is far above the one you get with basic machine maid tools, for a fair price (IMHO).

Also 5 points worth a note (my brain dump about this).

**you never now what the market will be. So can't be sure if you'll end up with return on investment in buying expensive machinery.
This is true for Liogier more than for Veritas or Lie Nielsen, but still.
When you sell lifetime tools, once you've filled up primary market what do you do ?
By primary market, I mean people making a living by woodworking, and the passionated 'amateurs' like we are.
And of course among this population those that want to work manually, the neanderthal way.
This is the main reason why LV and others are always bringing new tools on the market, I think (again in my IMHO).
Plus it's way to share some cost of developments, or machinery. I remember once Rob Lee saying one of the planes had served as development for others also.
That's called Risk in fact. And I'm not even talking about the currencies crossrates, that can move and affect the selling in North America.


**Also Liogier does cary a lot of profiles, length, curves and shapes, width, ... ( for rasps and rifflers, ...).
A cnc machine being able to make all these profile, must be hard to find, and probably not worth the investment, considering the amount produced.
Also he is able to make custom profiles if you want it. Which is something more than probably done by hand :)
And they would have to master CAD, have computers running the machine, etc.
And talking about maintenance, what do you guys prefer ? A good old Grinder ? or a sophisticated computer and electronic ?
Let me guess the answer the neanderthals would give :D ... Grinder ?


**In the video the grinding and sanding process seems quite fast (my guess about 10 to 15 minutes for both, if not less).
So in the time it takes to stich a rasp (about 1h30') one can probably prepare about 7 to 10, rasp blanks.
So there is no need to produce them faster as this prepares stocks faster that they can be sticthed.
My guess, no need to optimize that part, as in 2 or 3 hours one person can prepare enough blanks for many other to stitch, for days.
Also it let's you the ability to shape whatever the form and size you want.
One thing I discoverd going working by hand is the unbelievable accuracy of the hand of man. Probably one of the best gift of mother nature.

**A point about the cost of labor in France. It's high. If it takes about 2 hours for the making of a rasp. Then add the cost of metal, the buildings, all other bills (electricity), and taxes on benefits....
I'm convinced Lioger does not make high margins.

So in conclusion, I find the prices are good and fair given the work, knowledge and tradition involved in the making.
Plus having a lifetime quality tools is fine with me.

Regards.

[David Keller NC]

So now we're all experts in rasp making? No offense to anyone, and I mean that sincerely, but it seems a bit odd to me that in the Neanderthal Haven we have a craftsman making a world class rasp at a reasonable price, and we're trying to tell him how to make his operation more efficient by using CNC so that we can maybe buy a cheaper rasp.

Indeed. Yet, there is always a certain section of the population (of anything - woodworkers, cooks, driveway mechanics, etc...) that simply want everything cheaper than it already is. These are the folks that were lined up last Thanksgiving evening so that they could be "first" when the store opened at midnight on Friday.

My own view would be extremely unpopular, but nevertheless there are other like-minded individuals out there. I would not want to see a L-N bronze #4 for $125, nor would I want to see Logier's or Auriou's products at a $15 price point - it should hurt a little (or a lot, depending on who you are and your situation) to purchase your tools. If you have less funds, then you learn to do a lot more with the tools that you currently own, and you learn to do without until you can save up for something you need.

This, in my view, was the case for the last several hundred years - good tools were expensive, and craftsmen treated them well. Buying poorly made tool-shaped objects at the BORG is bad in many ways; having no incentive to take care of them is just one of them.

[Erwin Graween]

These are the folks that were lined up last Thanksgiving evening so that they could be "first" when the store opened at midnight on Friday.

David, I particularly like this sample. It's really true.

Regards.

[Jack Curtis]

...This, in my view, was the case for the last several hundred years - good tools were expensive, and craftsmen treated them well. Buying poorly made tool-shaped objects at the BORG is bad in many ways; having no incentive to take care of them is just one of them.

David, I completely agree with your entire message. As an addendum, note that Japanese workers honor their tools one day a year, an official holiday to clean and worship. Not a bad habit.

If you can't afford an expensive tool, whatever that is given your situation, make one or, as David says, make do. There are many ways to perform most woodworking tasks.

Sure, I'd love to be able to purchase piles of $80 rasps and files, but I can't; so I bought one each of three different types just to see how they perform, something to aim for. And, best of all, these companies (LV, LN, Logier) are selling tools made in the west, and are worthy of our support as best we can. They support us.

Jack

[Noel Liogier]

It is very heartening to see how you are interested in this subject. I agree with almost all that have been written so far. I don't pretend to know the truth, I just do my best efforts to do things right, day after day. One last element I want to add to the debate about productivity improvements, altough it may not give a very profesionnal image of myself. I am indeed always keen of improving our productivity (and I even believe that I did some important improvements), but always keeping two things in mind:
First, what makes me happy, my real objective, is to know that one day I will retire and that this day I will have something to transmit and to know that I have transmitted it well. So the possible improvements have to be good not only on the short term.
Second, we are a seven persons company, working together for so long I can’t remember how many years. Not being able to provide work to one of this 6 companions would be a personal failure I don’t want to experience.
These two decision criteria will look very outdated to many. Others may think it is a privilege that few people have the option to have. I think that's one reason for the longevity of the company.

[Bob Smalser]

…the possible improvements have to be good not only on the short term…one reason for the longevity of the company….

…Not being able to provide work to one of this 6 companions would be a personal failure I don’t want to experience.



Exactly.

Just because the company hasn’t failed in so many years doesn’t mean it won’t fail in the dramatically-uncertain economy yet to come in Europe and North America. Substitute line shafts, water wheel and mill pond for 3-phase power and I don’t see anything in your video more efficient than 1890 except for the book keeping. Even medium to small cabinet and machine shops around here are going to CNC machines for repetitive tasks so as to increase their efficiency…letting the machines and computers do what machines and computers do best and hand tools what they do best.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7081299/93859833.jpg

But I’m also suggesting you have an untapped market you aren’t even scratching the surface of. Every commercial woodworking shop, however machine-reliant, has three or four basic rasps for those occasional tasks where the work piece won’t fit the machine, there is no machine made for the task, or the frequency of the task doesn’t justify the cost of the machine. You don’t have to convert your entire lineup to increase production and sales, you only have to produce a few basic cabinet rasps at a price point where the superior finish provided by your product justifies its increased cost in labor savings to a commercial operation. I don’t know what that price is, but it’s probably not 250% of a Nicholson #50.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com//Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=AU-CM.XX&Category_Code=TAU

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=2778&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=nicholson_50_rasp

[Jim Koepke]

I don’t know what that price is, but it’s probably not 250% of a Nicholson #50.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com//Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=AU-CM.XX&Category_Code=TAU

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=2778&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=nicholson_50_rasp


Tools for working wood no longer sells the Nicholson #49 or #50 because the quality has dropped dramatically:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com//Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogID=181

I have one of the Brazilian #50 and some hand stitched rasps. I am glad to have the hand made products and feel they are worth every bit more they cost compared to the Nicholson. If there were do overs allowed, I would not have bought the Nicholson and would have saved up and bought a heavier hand stitched rasp to go with the 13 & 15 grain cabinet makers rasps in my shop.

jtk

[ian maybury]

Hi Noel. I'm not an experienced hand tool user, am not US based and have to admit :o to having bought a couple of Swiss made rasps which seem quite similar to your tools recently. I have to say though that I've been amazed at how effective they are for general shaping and wood removal, and that if yours are equal or better that there must be a huge untapped market of uninformed potential users out there.

It was eye opening the way they cut the wood properly with that crisp and effortless sense a sharp blade always gives - I've been used to using various forms of files and car body tools on wood and none can compare. I had though that the nature of the tool would be such that it would clog and tear rather than cut - but absolutely not.

Good luck with your business.

ian

[Deane Allinson]

I kept wondering why this thread kept continuing for so long, I decided to take a look, and now I know why. Thanks for sharing that video.
Deane

[Noel Liogier]

Hi Noel. I'm not an experienced hand tool user, am not US based and have to admit :o to having bought a couple of Swiss made rasps which seem quite similar to your tools recently. I have to say though that I've been amazed at how effective they are for general shaping and wood removal, and that if yours are equal or better that there must be a huge untapped market of uninformed potential users out there.

It was eye opening the way they cut the wood properly with that crisp and effortless sense a sharp blade always gives - I've been used to using various forms of files and car body tools on wood and none can compare. I had though that the nature of the tool would be such that it would clog and tear rather than cut - but absolutely not.

Good luck with your business.

ian

Hi Ian, yes the main effort I have to do is to convince woodworkers that they don't know what a rasp can do until they tried (a real good) one. Most of them, once tried, find many many ways to use them they would never are thought before.

I have never heard about a Swiss hand-stitched rasp producer. I would be curious to know a bit more about your rasps.

[David Weaver]

Noel - are you having any luck finding a reasonable distributor in the US? My only fear is that you find someone who wants to mark up the rasps so much that they become unreasonably priced here, sort of like comparing the shapton professional sharpening stone price vs. what they cost where they're made.

I commend your dedication to your employees.

[John Coloccia]

Shoot. I'd almost be tempted to import them and sell them through my business. They're probably perfect for guitar carving.

[David Weaver]

do it do it do it do it :)

[Klaus Kretschmar]

It is very heartening to see how you are interested in this subject. I agree with almost all that have been written so far. I don't pretend to know the truth, I just do my best efforts to do things right, day after day. One last element I want to add to the debate about productivity improvements, altough it may not give a very profesionnal image of myself. I am indeed always keen of improving our productivity (and I even believe that I did some important improvements), but always keeping two things in mind:
First, what makes me happy, my real objective, is to know that one day I will retire and that this day I will have something to transmit and to know that I have transmitted it well. So the possible improvements have to be good not only on the short term.
Second, we are a seven persons company, working together for so long I can’t remember how many years. Not being able to provide work to one of this 6 companions would be a personal failure I don’t want to experience.
These two decision criteria will look very outdated to many. Others may think it is a privilege that few people have the option to have. I think that's one reason for the longevity of the company.

Noel,

thank you for this statement! I find it very honorable and it matches my feelings very well. It's important in our quick running world that there are manufacturers who are willing to withstand the main stream by taking high responsibility for their employees. I do think that it is a wise decision to maintain the traditional way to create world class tools. Every outsourcing of work and every change to get higher output by leaving the traditional way will necessarily be companied by a decrease of quality. I'm pretty sure, that those manufacturers that are able to keep the best possible product quality will have a chance to survive in this global shark economy if they are able to show why their products need to be more expensive than others which only seem to be the same.

I do wish you all the best on your way and my next order of a rasp will be done by asking you for sure.

Klaus