Rip Panel Saw?

[Mike Holbrook]

I am very excited to have found the Wenzloff & Sons web site. I have been actually enjoying hand sawing and was interested in Wenzloff's Half-Back saw as an all around bench saw. I have also been a real sucker for hand tool building projects lately. As luck would have it they offer kits for making a Half-Back and I put one on order. Then I discovered that they also sell saw parts. Since I had no idea how to make a handle to fit a blade I did not give the idea of building a saw from parts much consideration. Mike must have read my mind because a day or two later he posted downloadable drawings for making handles on his site.

The kit I ordered is for a 18", 10 ppi, CC Half-Back. Now I am thinking about making a rip saw. I cranked up my table saw earlier today to rip down the sides of the jointer plane I am working on. Two 26" rips had the whole shop filled with floating dust. Guess I should have gone & gotten my dust mask off the tractor. So then I asked myself, self do you really want to have to wear a mask & live in dusty air every time you need to rip a board? Self do you want to research, buy and install a dust collection system? Self & I decided we would look into something we could use to rip smaller projects with.

I am medium height with medium to short arms. Wenzloff sells 22-24" panel saw blades in 7,9 & 11 ppi rip versions. I am planing to build Schwarz's 20" Sawbench in Hand Tool Esentials to saw on. I have a small bench at around 33" tall with two wooden vises too. i have smaller joinery saws that I am happy with for now. Is a 22-24"panel saw blade toothed 7-9 ppi rip a good tool for ripping boards for smaller jobs when I do not want to crank up the table saw, band saw...?

[David Posey]

That depends on what you mean by "smaller jobs." It's more common to have rip saws at 5 or 5.5 tpi when they're full length (26 in.). If you're only ripping a few inches to a few feet 7 tpi should be fine. If you start doing longer rips by hand with any frequency, I'd work on rehabbing an old full size saw. Keep in mind that how the saw is filed will also have an effect on it's aggressiveness. As for sawbenches, if I remember correctly the one you reference has been improved upon by Chris on his blog. The one he posts there is stackable with it's sawing trestle. Here's the link to that bench:Http://lostartpress.wordpress.com/2008/02/10/this-year’s-model-the-2008-sawbench/ There's also this link with the sketchup models for the bench and trestle:Http://lostartpress.wordpress.com/2008/02/17/free-construction-drawings-for-the-2008-sawbench/

[Chris Vandiver]

If you are going to be ripping thick material(like a plane body), even though it is on the shorter side, I think you would prefer a more aggresive tooth count. 5-6ppi would be my suggestion. Also, weight is an advantage for a rip saw, so a longer one is going to make the job easier. 26"-28" is what I would recommend. You can find REALLY GOOD vintage rip saws for fairly cheap, with the potential to be a great saw. Look for a Disston #7 or even a D-8. As far as I know, none of Wenzloff's kits offer taper ground plates(a real plus for a hand saw).

Here's an example of a really nice rip saw that's ready to go; http://home.grics.net/~weir/Saws_for_sale.html scroll down to # 7R1. Cheaper than you can buy a kit and the saw plate can't be beat.

[Mike Holbrook]

David if you had asked me a week or two ago I probably would have told you I would just rip on the table saw or band saw, just about anything. This week I am thinking I might try ripping up to 2-3 feet before going to a powered tool. The more I work without all the dust the harder it is for me to go back to it. The planes, chisels, hand saws and Iwasaki files/floats I have been using recently have made me more sensitive to the dust & noise the electric equipment makes. I think it is also because I work around loud barking, dusty dogs and a loud tractor & mower that kick up lots of dust. I move truck loads of wood chips around with the loader on the tractor regularly too, talk about your dust. I get more than my share of dust & loud noise. I think I have a hard time getting excited about kicking up more dust on what few off hours I get.

Thanks for the link to the later Sawbench designs. The later design looks easier to make. The narrative indicates that Chris designed the second bench for a class to make. Apparently he wanted a project emphasizing hand saw skills. I might build one of each. The newer model could stack over the earlier one but I would still have one with a tool caddy.

I read that panel saw length should be adjusted to a specific persons natural stroke with a saw. A long armed person would have a longer stroke than a shorter person...?

[Trevor Walsh]

I built a Rip panel saw out of a new Stanley "Resharpenable!" (wow, really?) saw, shortened and reshaped the plate, drilled new holes and mounted a handle. It's about 10 TPI I think... I like it for lots of little stuff though cutting 5/4 with it was not as fun or fast as a 5 point saw. I'd use it up to 4/4 in easy to work woods.

[Mike Holbrook]

It sounds like the 5-6 ppi toothing is popular for ripping. This is one of the things I am studying on. I guess a 5-6 ppi rip tooth configuration can move the saw significantly faster? I see ppi and tpi tooth measurements used and I am not sure how to convert? I have also read that the good "modern" blade steels are significantly more durable?

[daniel lane]

It sounds like the 5-6 ppi toothing is popular for ripping. This is one of the things I am studying on. I guess a 5-6 ppi rip tooth configuration can move the saw significantly faster? I see ppi and tpi tooth measurements used and I am not sure how to convert? I have also read that the good "modern" blade steels are significantly more durable?

Mike,

TPI = teeth per inch, while PPI = points per inch. The number of PPI is always 1 more than the number of TPI. If you draw it out, it makes sense. See this picture from NorseWoodsmith (http://norsewoodsmith.com/drupal/files/image/handsaws/tpi-ppi.gif):


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Hopefully, that helps clarify.


daniel

[Andrae Covington]

I read that panel saw length should be adjusted to a specific persons natural stroke with a saw. A long armed person would have a longer stroke than a shorter person...?

Ideally both the saw and the sawbench should be sized to fit you.

The August 2011 issue of PW has an article by Ron Herman with some tips, although his style of sawbench is different than the one Schwarz has advocated. Herman's is more like an actual bench, which he sits on (straddling). For the Schwarz style, you want the height to approximate the bottom of your knee, since you would bend one knee to hold the work down on the sawbench as you saw, standing on the other leg. The height is probably very close to the same in either style.

Anyway back to the article. For the handsaw, he suggested holding your arm straight out with index finger bent at the knuckle. Then place the saw alongside your arm with the toe of the saw at your shoulder. The teeth should face your arm. The back of the toothline should just about line up with your knuckle. There are other methods but the basic idea is to accommodate your arm stroke, plus a little extra so the saw doesn't jump out of the cut.

As I am kneehigh to a grasshopper, both my sawbenches and saws are short.
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It sounds like the 5-6 ppi toothing is popular for ripping. This is one of the things I am studying on. I guess a 5-6 ppi rip tooth configuration can move the saw significantly faster? I see ppi and tpi tooth measurements used and I am not sure how to convert?

As I noted in a thread a couple weeks ago, coarse-toothed panel saws are hard to come by unless you buy / build a new one, which it sounds like you are considering. I do have a 22" 6ppi rip and 22" 7ppi rip, but I hunted ebay a long time to come up with those.

ppi vs. tpi: there is always one more point per inch than teeth per inch. Old American-made handsaws (and I assume new ones) are stamped with the points per inch. I believe the English sawmakers indicated the teeth per inch.

[Mike Holbrook]

I knew what tpi & ppi meant now I understand why there are two terms which are so close to the same thing, which did not make a great deal of sense to me, yeaa!

Wenzloff offers a larger saw blade (thicker and longer) than their panel saws. The Panel blades are available in 16- 24" sizes and the Hand Saw blades in 26, 28 & 30 inch sizes. I'm not sure if the Panel vs Hand saw designations are peculiar to their company? It looks like it is a toss up cost wise. The parts to build a new saw run to the low side of what I see on auction. I was also wondering about shipping saws, it seems to me a blade could get bent or a handle broken in shipping if not packed well.

[Andrae Covington]

I knew what tpi & ppi meant now I understand why there are two terms which are so close to the same thing, which did not make a great deal of sense to me, yeaa!

Wenzloff offers a larger saw blade (thicker and longer) than their panel saws. The Panel blades are available in 16- 24" sizes and the Hand Saw blades in 26, 28 & 30 inch sizes. I'm not sure if the Panel vs Hand saw designations are peculiar to their company?

As far as I know that's been the general convention for a long time: less than ~26" is a panel saw.


The parts to build a new saw run to the low side of what I see on auction.

Really? I don't mean to knock Wenzloff, because I think the prices are reasonable, but the panel saws I've bought on ebay have cost me less than $25 including shipping. They are, of course, not in brand-new-shiny-spring-steel, freshly-cut teeth condition like the blades he sells.



I was also wondering about shipping saws, it seems to me a blade could get bent or a handle broken in shipping if not packed well.

Yeah, that's one of the risks. Also the blade may be kinked in the first place. The saw in my photo above was kinked near the toe, in the area where it is visibly pitted as well. Along the length of the saw it was also gently bowed in the opposite direction of the kink. I was able to remove the bow, and most of the kink, but not all of it. That plus the rough pitted area have given me some trouble in use. More recently I bought a 7ppi rip which was in better shape; I may retire the other saw. For the prices I paid, I've been reasonably happy with the old saws I've purchased on ebay, some more than others. Still, at some point I will probably build or buy a new panel saw or two as quality replacements. I've been very happy with the Wenzloff backsaws I own.

[Zach Dillinger]

I have two favorite ripsaws, one is an old Disston thumbhole ripsaw at 5 1/2 tpi, the other is a basically unused Lakeside L7 saw, 28" long and also 5 1/2 tpi. I also have a 8ppi Disston that I filed rip, for smaller jobs on thinner stock.

I bought a Biggins 28" rip saw, English made, fine tooth pattern at the toe, 5 tpi at the heel. Some schmuck made a plywood handle for it and I need to make a new one, but I have no idea what the Biggins handle would have looked like.

[Mike Holbrook]

I was gauging cost by the saws I found I could buy. The nice ones seemed to run $80-$225 & ^. There are a bunch listed at starting prices of $10 to $15 and I am following a few to see what they end up at. I am probably being a little picky on the appearance but I would not want to buy a saw with a problem at this stage as I do not know how to fix bent, kinked....saw blades. I guess I could learn. The one mentioned by a poster above is $125. There are some reconditioned saws offered at auction too, which sounds like it might be a decent alternative for me, at least until I develop more skills & knowledge regarding this type saw. I am concerned about a non professional seller not wrapping a saw well enough before shipping it.

Apparently there are some saw blades that taper from thicker at the back to thinner at the teeth. This seems to be more the standard with Japanese saws. I am wondering how blades made this way compare to regular blades with the widder tooth profile? I think some of the advantages are a thinner kerf, and a cleaner cut. Do these saw usually cut a little slower though due to less ability to clean the kerf? The Thumhole saws look interesting but I wonder how they feel in hand, whether they are better in larger or smaller hands...?

Another thing I am curious about is the more recent saws. There are some Disston saws available that are not nearly as old but the handles and blades just look cheaper even if they are newer. I am guessing hand saws suffered the familiar decline in demand vs the electric equipment and slid down the same declining quality slope? I am wondering how old a saw needs to be to get back to a time when quality & utility were king.

Zach, check out the handle drawings at Wenzloff, one of them should work.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Forgot to mention in that old thread that Andrae has some really nice old, off-brand saws. Good to see someone else knows that Disston isn't the end-all be-all when it comes to saws and that some of the other makers made saws that were easily as good or better than Disston's best. What is that you've got there in that picture Andrae, a C.E. Jennings? I like to use those little panel rip saws on the bench top.

[Chuck Nickerson]

I have a 22" 11ppi rip saw from Medallion Tools. I use it all the time for ripping thinner stock, 1/2" or less.

Since I reclaim a lot of wood from cedar and redwood fences (that stuff is beautiful), I love that saw.

[David Weaver]

I second Chris's comment about taper. I think you will be much happier with a vintage saw with good taper and tension, allowing minimal set. You should be able to find one similar in price to a kit, including what it would cost you to have it professionally sharpened if you want to do such a thing.

I rip 90% of what I use by hand, and second the comments above - nearly all of my ripping is done with 4 1/2 -6 ppi saws, unless the material is thin or the quality of the cut on the back side is critical and I want to minimize the chance of anything blowing out (something that might happen if you get second growth cherry or something, and it's not such great quality).

If you're using really hard hardwoods to make planes, ripping something like a jointer body with a handsaw will be some work no matter what, and you might find that 6 ppi is nicer than something more coarse because of the hardness of the wood. I always try for the largest teeth first, though, they'll tell you by the rough ride if the wood is so hard that a finer saw would be nice.

I don't do a lot of ripping with saws smaller than 26" for anything and I'm not a big guy. I don't use a lot of thin stock, though, either.

[Andrae Covington]

Forgot to mention in that old thread that Andrae has some really nice old, off-brand saws. Good to see someone else knows that Disston isn't the end-all be-all when it comes to saws and that some of the other makers made saws that were easily as good or better than Disston's best. What is that you've got there in that picture Andrae, a C.E. Jennings? I like to use those little panel rip saws on the bench top.

Link (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?174132-panel-saws-for-smaller-hands&p=1790654&highlight=#post1790654) to my post in earlier thread. Actually most of mine are Disstons, but I agree with you. The other saw has a warranted superior medallion and the blade etch says "the astoria" and "warranted cast steel"; I don't know who made it. For anyone who's willing to take the plunge of buying an old saw in the first place, I recommend giving the warranted superior saws a chance. Most of them were made by the major companies as second-line saws, but even their "second-best" were very well made. Also, many saws were marked with a department store name or brand name (such as Keen Kutter for the Simmons Hardware Company), and again the saw was likely made by Disston, E.C. Atkins, Bishop, Simonds, etc. I don't really know much about C.E. Jennings saws but I've read they were quality saws. I have a Simonds mitre box saw (just the saw) that is very nice, and it wasn't expensive... I guess the collectors only care about their handsaws. Anyway there are lots of options.


I was gauging cost by the saws I found I could buy. The nice ones seemed to run $80-$225 & ^.

Yeah the ones that have somehow survived in great condition, and the ones that have been nicely refurbished, do tend to run closer to the cost of a kit. The search I set up for saws probably has a price cap on it so I don't even see those... I like to rummage around at the bottom of the barrel.;)

[Jonathan McCullough]

I was reading on some other forum where I think a young man said he couldn't use noisy power tools because he was in an apartment with a baby or something, and asked if he could use a rip saw to rip boards to build a bench top. As I recall, one of the answers was an emphatic and hilarious "no." The ersatz expert cited the reasons: the expert had never used a rip saw--that stuff was for old timers. It was too much work. The expert was too old to rip all that wood. Therefore, to the obvious solution to the problem of not being able to use power tools, was to use a circular saw. Genius! Problem solved! Now, to unbaby the baby part of his problem, first you build a time machine . . .

[john brenton]

Haha, yeah I know. I was driving around some po-dunk town and stopped in to a lumber yard. The lumber was nothing great, but inside the store they actually had varied sizes of three corner files, a few newer Stanley brace drills, and a resharpenable Stanley, or Nicholson rip saw...don't remember which brand it was. Either way, I saw that it was resharpenable and just looked at it incredulously. I think that "Wow, Really?" was exactly what I said.


I built a Rip panel saw out of a new Stanley "Resharpenable!" (wow, really?) saw, shortened and reshaped the plate, drilled new holes and mounted a handle. It's about 10 TPI I think... I like it for lots of little stuff though cutting 5/4 with it was not as fun or fast as a 5 point saw. I'd use it up to 4/4 in easy to work woods.

[Mike Holbrook]

Reading over these posts again I believe I found the implication that the older saw blades were frequently/usually tapered? I notice on the Wenzloff site that their Kenyon Half-Rip, 5 ppi, 26" saw also has a taper-ground blade. Maybe in the case of Western saws it is the larger saws with larger rip teeth that tend to have this type blade? Excuse my ignorance here but I am more use to small Japanese saws with tapered blades & no tooth set. I can certainly see how a taper-ground blade might help a coarser thicker saw blade to cut faster. I believe these are Hand & Half-Rip saws (sized between Hand & Panel saws), typically larger than panel saws.

I see three major saw types in the Western saws. The big saws seem designed to cut rough, thick stock to size. The panel and maybe Half-Back saws seem oriented towards sawing prepared boards to length/size, not final cuts but cuts in thinner more prepared boards. The smaller Carcass, Tenon & Dovetail saws being the final saws, designed to make smooth, smaller final cuts. Maybe I am a little upside down on my saw collection, having decent final cut options and small folding saws but only power tools for rougher longer cuts. I say upside down only in terms of the process of going from coarse> medium> fine.

Maybe it would make sense to make a couple saw kits ( CC & rip ) for breaking down dimensioned wood and then shop the auctions for larger, heavier, coarser saws for breaking down thicker coarser boards. I do not have rough lumber to break down at this point and will probably be using mostly dimensioned wood in the projects I will do next. Although if I am reading the post above correctly it sounds like some posters here use the larger rip saws for more than just ripping large rough stock. I am guessing that the larger saws might be the preferred tools for small construction lumber sawing jobs too- 2x4, 2x6, 4x4?

[David Weaver]

I personally like larger saws for all of those operations that you described. Instead of using a smaller saw, I located a 12 tpi english carpenter's saw that's 26 inches long. It leaves a finish like a small saw, but its' got enough stroke to crosscut not-so-great KD 2nd cut lumber to length and leave a nice finish and not blow out the back side of the cut. Nothing but the small stuff that fits easily on a bench hook gets a small saw.

And, yes, when you get into the era of commercial saw making (mid to late 1800s?) every decent quality larger saw had taper, and even a lot of the second and third line saws had taper. I've not found an old saw that doesn't, until you get into some of the keystone saws made by disston. There probably are some, but that's all that I've been exposed to. From what I can tell by feel, the cheap saws might have less taper, and the tension on them is not quite as good - they're a bit more floppy. There are probably no universal statements about anything old to abide by, though.

MW's larger saws are tapered, but I don't think you can get a tapered plate for a kit. It doesn't mean that the saw won't be able to be used, but it leads me to imply that it might be nice to save the kits for saws where taper matters little (like the backsaws) and go vintage for the panel and carpenter's saws if you can.

Just my opinion, I have 3 of Mike's kits and find him to be exceptional for our hobby, he works hard, is very giving of advice and probably doesn't pay himself enough, so I'm not downing new kits for no reason or because of the origin.

[Mike Holbrook]

Well I just won an auction for a: Vintage H.M. Meier carpenters hand saw, 26 3/8" 6 point blade, emblem on handleI took some of the advise above and just made a bid on a old saw that looked liked it had reasonable care with a manufacturer name that did not seem to be attracting attention. The picture and description seem to indicate that the teeth are all there, blade looks straight and not too rusted, handle looks good...I figure for $10.50 I can't go too wrong and the shipping price was reasonable as well. Worse case maybe I have a decent construction grade saw. Now I get to see if the seller does a decent shipping job. But I have not caught any sort of auction bug and want be looking again for.....well at least 10 minuets.

[David Weaver]

It looks like you'll have to refile it rip, but it will be a good saw. it looks like it's either a disston #16 or another sawmaker's copy of a #16 (without the wheat on the handle, which I could leave behind on every saw handle I've got given the choice).

Off-branded saws will often be a very good deal on ebay because ...well, who would know to search for "H.M. Meier" saws. Gobs of people probably search "disston panel saw" or some such thing, and they'll never see it.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I haven't tried it in the saw category, but when I was looking for braces, I would drill down to the appropriate category, and then search within that category using the "minus" trick - searching for "handplane -Stanley" will turn up all the items that match "handplane" but don't have "stanley" in there. So I'd set up a search in the drill category and do something like "brace -stanley -millers -falls -yankee" - and start subtracting other things that turned up in a lot of searches. I'd end up with nothing left but all the auctions that pretty much get ignored because they have really poor descriptions and use almost no keywords. I'd also set the price filters to something reasonable. Then I'd set it up to view as many items as I could on a page, only look at things that preview pictures, and just skim through things. I'm sure I still miss a lot, but I'd open up everything interesting in a new window, and skim through that. A bit more work, but I ended up getting a nice Yankee brace and a small sweep Stanley Fray for a fraction of what it would have gone for had someone actually brought any attention to the item at all. I think the stanley was listed as "Vintage drill nice" or something like that. Still hit or miss, but it's nice not to be out too much when you miss.

[Mike Holbrook]

I was not sure about the teeth. It sort of looked like the teeth might have have been refiled for CC, but I could not tell. I guess it was not that hard to find that item. The handle looks like the one I see on an E.C Atkins saw (again without the pattern) with the same 1887 patent date. I guess the exact length is in question too. The 26 3/8" number may refer to total length.

I have at least one file on order that I think will work. I guess I need to go study up on filling saw teeth.

[Joshua Clark]

There's a bit of information on HM Meier here: http://www.wkfinetools.com/cCorner/c_BrickhouseF/saws/MeierHM/MeierHM.asp

Yours looks like it's from the late 1800s. It wouldn't surprise me if it were made for Simmons as Wiktor's site suggests. The saw looks absolutely serviceable- so long as the plate is good and straight you should have a great worker on your hands.

-Josh

[Mike Holbrook]

Great link Joshua, thanks. Great to have some history on this saw. Patent, Ground and Tempered, Apple Wood..all nice to know. Even a detailed how to restore the saw with lots of pictures, products to do the work.... I think the saw in all those pictures is the same one I just bought, except I think mine is in a little better condition to start with. What more could a guy need! Looks like I did pretty good for my first saw purchase, guess I will find out for sure when it gets here.

[Mike Holbrook]

Reading about saws being auctioned has raised a question for me. I am wondering how much the teeth on a saw can be set or sharpened? At some point it would seem the teeth would get filed away or all the bending might cause teeth to break off? Some of the old saws seem to have: worn teeth, improperly filed teeth, teeth with too much set... all of which worries me in terms of the teeth lasting... Maybe the teeth can just be recessed deeper & deeper into the blade or filed off and a fresh set made in a deeper piece of the blade?

Apparently some people send their saw off to be professionally sharpened. Do professionals have power tools etc that do a better faster job than a file? Maybe in cases where more dramatic change needs to be made to teeth professional help would be advised? Once a professional has done the heavy work is it fairly easy to maintain a sharp saw with just a file? I understand that todays steels may be harder/tougher than the older steels. With the common trade off between toughness and hardness in steels I would imagine a hand saw falls closer to the requirements of a Jack Hammer than those fine surgical steel?

[David Posey]

Mike, the simple answer is, as long as there is enough metal left in the sawplate, you can fix the saw one way or another. Teeth don't get filed away, because as you file down the teeth just move down (or up, if you're looking at the saw from the usual, non-sharpening perspective) the sawplate. Teeth can be overset, and it is generally not healthy for the tooth to bend it back if it's been extremely overset because it might break off, but most people that are going to muck up a saw filing job aren't going to know what set is in the first place, so buying a saw like that from an auction is not generally a problem. Most of the time set is adjust by stoning the side of the saw. The two things it's usually hard or impossible to see on an online auction site are whether or not the saw is kinked, and whether or not it's just bad steel. The latter you wouldn't even be able to tell about if you saw it in person, and in the most common saws that's actually very very rare.

If you haven't read Vintage Saw's Filing Treatise it'd be something good to check out.

http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html

I think there may be machines that will cut new teeth on a saw that some professionals might use, but the best saw filing is done by hand. Cutting teeth can also be done with out a machine. I've heard it suggest that if you're getting into vintage saws and you don't have a saw around it might be good to have one or two professionally sharpened so you know what you're aiming for when you do start to sharpen, but you really need to learn to file yourself. Like most other things in the hand tool world, it's not hard, but it does take a little practice. I started out just reading things from the internet and my saws cut pretty quickly and true. In regard to steels, yes, the modern ones are a little tougher to file, but not so much you can't do it. Mike Wenzloff and the other modern manufactures sharpen their saws by hand and I'm sure they all use 1095 steel, which is the tougher modern stuff you're referring to. There are some saws you'll see in the big box stores with induction hardened teeth, and for all practical purposes, these are not sharpenable. They steel on them is darker on the tips than the rest of the sawplate. I'd stay away from these at all costs unless you have a masochistic desire to cut sheet goods by hand.

My suggestion, even if you choose to buy mostly new saws, is to get at least a couple cheap old ones just to practice filing on. Because if you do have shiny new saws that cut wonderfully, the last thing you want to to is try your hand at sharpening on those without any experience.

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks David, very helpful information! Bookmarked the link and will study it. The bits & pieces I have read about sharpening saws in posts and descriptions of saws for sale has ranged from making sharpening sound like something only a pro should do to simpler than falling off a log. Good to know that most auction saws are correctable too. I see quite a few posters who send a saw off for sharpening. I think the reason may be that it takes quite a large chunk of time to file all those teeth and I suppose there are those of us who's vision up close is not getting any better. I am enamored of the whole sharpening thing, and I am determined to get good at it with all my tools as I think it speaks to the most basic of skills necessary to do good work. I bought one old saw (above) and I am going to buy another saw or two. I have one of Mike Wenzloff's kits on order, Half-Back-Bubinga handle, 18", 10 ppi CC, no sharpening.

I am thinking about calling Mike & asking him about sharpening the teeth on my new blade, as you mention above, it might be good to have a model to work from. I don't think my Japanese disposable blades are the model I need ;-)

[David Weaver]

The truth of how hard it is to sharpen is somewhere in between, but with a fixture, a vise and a file on a rip saw, it's closer to about as easy as falling off a log as long as you keep your eyes open while you're doing it.

I have to think most people send saws off because they don't want to file them or don't want to learn. There seem to be a few exceptions to this, but I have the feeling that generally if you can woodwork, you can sharpen your own saws pretty easily.

You may not be able to sharpen teeth the way daryl does, where they are just a model of geometric perfection, but you can certainly learn to file a saw sharp and then adjust what you've done if needed to make it saw straight and clean.

[Mike Holbrook]

I am determined to be prepared to do a good sharpening job. A couple things are a little obscure at the moment though.

The matter of a saw vise is cloudy for me. I think the problem is good commercial vises may not be available leaving a choice between making something or shopping auctions? I have a 16.5 inch wooden vise on my bench. Can I just fashion a couple jaws to fit inside the vise to hold blades I am sharpening? I read about making the tops of jaws 45 degrees to provide more hand & file room. I also understand about making the jaws a little concave so they tighten properly. Otherwise it seems like a couple pieces of prepared wood for jaws would work? I think I read something about a bench vise maybe being to short to hold a saw vise. I think the problem being back stress from leaning way over to sharpen. Could I sit in a chair or stool at the bench? I have been thinking of adjusting an old existing stool or making one for bench use anyway.

The other subject I am unclear on is repairing kinks or bends in blades.

[David Weaver]

Repairing kinks is an art, and varies by kink. I don't think very many people will be able to make a saw plate perfect to an eye with good sight after it's kinked. I don't bother with kinked plates. Bends are a different story, and there is a good post by George here to handle them.

I have two vises that have a ball joint, I can't remember the makers - I think one of them is unmarked and maybe the other is dunlap or some other name I've seen before. I don't use them.

I would rather have a fairly large machinist vise (which is about a $30 purchase at a flea market - for a 5 inch vise that's good and tall and can swivel) and two sprung boards. I woudn't bring them to a point, but I would chamfer off maybe half of their thickness to make room for the file.

There are many ways to do it, but you shouldn't be required to buy something expensive, nor make something that is time consuming or difficult to make.