Sawstop

[John Grabowski]

First off, I want to say that I don't want this thread to turn into a bash of Sawstop.

I am writing for your advice...

I have taken time off from my woodworking because of several family issues and now I am thankfully forced back full stream as we are expecting a second baby in the spring...Time for a new crib and other furniture that we need to populate our house.

Next week, I am going to have the ability to buy a few new tools that will be tools that I will use for a long time down the road.

I am going to buy a sawstop for sure. I know that I will be spending lots of hours in the shop down the line with my son and it will give both my wife and I great piece of mind. That is something that priceless in my opinion.
Now for my sawstop question...If you had the ability, would you lean toward a PCS or ICS for non-production woodworking? Is there a good reason to step up to the ICS? I already have a 1 3/4 hp saw and do want the 3 hp for cutting the tough stuff. I just don't think I will need the ICS over the PCS...I am looking for sharing of ideas btwn the two.

Thanks for any insight,

Grub

[mreza Salav]

It's hard to give a frank and unbiased opinion if one doesn't have both or at least used both.
I have the ICS version and am quite happy with it. I have looked at other brands/models and this looks very well built and that doesn't mean
just heavy, rather well thought and engineered. I had to gut it out completely to take it to my basement shop and had to put it back together
and do appreciate how well designed it is.
Having said that I have looked at the PCS version and it looks every bit as well designed as this one. Where the ICS version is better is bigger
table top and heavier trunnion (which the latter I think won't matter to you). If I had to buy one new NOW I would be leaning towards the PCS
version and use the extra grand or so I save on other shop equipments but if you have the money and want to buy the best cabinet saw
then go with the ICS version and you won't look back. I think almost surely a 3HP would be enough in 99% of situations for a hobbyist (although
I have managed to nearly stall my 3hp one while trying to cut a 3" very very hard piece of maple using a sharp rip blade).

[Gregg Feldstone]

It's interested that you mention a near stall. I had Unisaw (still US made at the time) before my 3hp Sawstop. The Unisaw has 3 parallel belts transferring power to the arbor. I has a different feel to it.....a heavier, louder "clunk" when it is powered up and really seemed to cut more easily. I have always thought that this design has more torque. Sawstop has just two multi-v belts in sequence. I was concerned about this before buying and, of course, Sawstop told me their design gives the same torque. I'm glad I won't cut off my fingers or worse, but I miss the feel of my Unisaw.

[Mike Henderson]

I have the PCS and have never had any problems with it - or anything it wouldn't cut. It's powerful enough for all my work.

And a comment about torque on motors (and saws). HP is torque times RPM times a constant factor. All 3HP 3450 RPM induction motors have essentially the same torque. And all of them are capacitor start and on table saws, they all start unloaded. So they're all essentially the same. You'd have to go to a more powerful motor (say a 5HP) to get more torque.

Mike

[mreza Salav]

Didn't intent to derail this topic or say 3HP isn't enough as I think it is (and yes, Mike is correct that a 3hp is a 3hp and at the same speed they have the same torque).

[Peter Aeschliman]

I haven't used the ICS, but I have the PCS. All I can tell you is that for my work, I have yet to need more saw. Definitely powerful enough, well designed, heavy-duty.

Like Mreza said, I'd save the extra cash and spend it on other tools.

[Frank Stolten]

John....I sent you a PM

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

John - I think the PCS versus ICS discussion comes down to whether or not you think you'll need 5HP, and whether or not you need a larger table surface.

I have the PCS. I never feel that I need more HP; I am sure I would like a larger table, but I really don't need it.

[Thomas L. Miller]

John,
I have the ICS. I bought it a few months before the PCS was released. I have NO buyers remorse. I've used both. I like the mass of the ICS as well as the larger table. Both are well made saws and both would serve you in good stead. I have a 3 hp motor in my saw. I've not experienced any hesitation on the part of the saw. Whichever saw you choose, I don't think you will be disappointed. Best of luck,
Tom

[Bob Wingard]

Since you've already decided on a SAWSTOP (congratulations, by the way) ... I would disregard the brand and focus on your present and perceived future needs. If you were comparing Grizzly or Delta, which way would you go .. Contractor/Cabinet ??? Honestly look at all the features offered by both machines, and decide, to the best of your ability, based on those facts. Myself, I almost always over do things just a tad, so I'd likely get the Cabinets saw, but I have used well tuned and properly set up contractor saws for many years with good results.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

I have used both the PCS and the ICS...I own a PCS (3 hp) and the place where I take classes (PFW) has an ICS (7hp I believe, but possibly the 5hp). Of course the extra power was nice when sawing enough 3 inch thick hard maple for the entire bench building class! (12 benches in 100% solid hard maple, each about 7 1/2 ft long and 24 inches across on average). They run that saw day after day month after month too.

Of course the motor is mounted on the left hand side on the PCS and the right hand for the PCS...but the only real material difference that I have ever really noticed is that the ICS has a few more inches of table between the front edge and the blade. Since I am only 5'4" tall and have a 33" sleeve length I find the PCS a little bit more comfortable to use. Of course I also don't like to rip full sheets of ply on the table saw if I don't have to, but if you do or plan to do so...those extra few inches can really make a difference. For the extra money you could probably add a festool track saw and track to the arsenal.

[johnny means]

I have an ICS and think the extra mass and power serve me well. Though I think I would be almost as well served with the PCS.

One thing to think about though, is that those nice cast iron router table extensions don't fit the ICS. I'm sure this applies to other accessories as well.

[Don Bullock]

... If I had to buy one new NOW I would be leaning towards the PCS
version and use the extra grand or so I save on other shop equipments but if you have the money and want to buy the best cabinet saw
then go with the ICS version and you won't look back. ...

As another ICS owner I'll agree with Mreza on this one. Yes, my 5hp SS ICS is a fantastic saw, but it was very expensive. When I bought mine there wasn't any choice. For most hobbyists the PCS should be more than adequate for their projects.

[Mike Heidrick]

I own the ICS - it was the only option in 2006. It is massive for a newer saw. I would not trade it for any North American table saws out there. It would take a higher end Felder saw shaper for me to change (700 series or better) and they cost 3X what an ICS costs. Buying today I would probably own the PCS as everyone loves it too.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I have an ICS, and it was the only option when I got it. I'm NOT a pro and need it to buy food. The 5 hp is nice, but I really don't think I NEED it. Given the choice, since I'm not a pro, I think I'd get the PCS now...... I guess it boils down to the HP and bigger table and if you want to spend the coins for it. The 5 horse is very nice and smooth. It slows for nothing. I have not used the PCS so I can't say. Not that I have buyers remorse. I love my saw. If you can afford the ICS, no problem, buy it. I seriously doubt you'd say, "I wish I had saved money and gotten the PCS". Now, if you have to stretch your budget to get it, then you may think that down the line.

Good luck in your decision. Whichever you buy, you will not regret it.

[John Coloccia]

The PCS is what most buy. We usually recommend the ICS to large shops and schools (schools especially because the kids beat on these machines like you wouldn't believe). I have the contractor home because the PCS was not available at the time, but were I to do it again and buy another table saw I would buy the PCS. I see all three of them almost every day, have been inside and out of all of them, and can pretty confidently say I would recommend the PCS as the right saw for 90% of the folks out there. If you have the cash and it doesn't hurt, go for the ICS. Personally, I would take the money I saved with a PCS and get a really nice bandsaw :)

[Larry Edgerton]

In reguards to HP, I own saws from 1.5 hp to 7.5 hp and it is my opinion that more hp is safer. When a saw bogs it is a scary moment until the switch is hit or the piece is pulled out of the cut. I like big saws with big motors.

Three hp is three hp, on that I will agree, but the old large frame motors do work better than the newer motors. Don't know if it is the ratings, the weight, or perhaps a slight difference in pulley sizes but there are differences in performance. I replaced an old large frame motor on a Oliver bandsaw with a Baldor of the same rating, and there was a definate loss of power.

Think Tim Talor, Ugh, Ugh, Ugh!

Larry

[Chris Tsutsui]

Keep in mind that the sawstop Slider is around the corner... imagine if you pull the trigger and then a couple weeks later you see advertisements for their slider. :)

3HP is enough for me, I had a grizzly 3HP cabinet saw and it powered through everything I threw at it. (Though it was not like I was cutting 3" ebony or anything like that)

That's great to have a sawstop for teaching for I'd feel more at ease teaching people on a sawstop.

[John Grabowski]

I appreciate all the comments...I have the space and money for the ICS. I don't think that I will have a need for the extra weight and space in front of the blade. I take down plywood with a panel saw that I made. Some had also mentioned a slider but I mainly use my table saw for ripping and any crosscutting will be done with a sled.

I am going to take that extra tool money and maybe buy a festool domino...I am borrowing one from a friend of mine and I love it. So I guess in my mind, I am already spending that money on other toys.

Thanks again,

John G

[Glen Blanchard]

Since you've already decided on a SAWSTOP (congratulations, by the way) ... I would disregard the brand and focus on your present and perceived future needs. If you were comparing Grizzly or Delta, which way would you go .. Contractor/Cabinet ??? Honestly look at all the features offered by both machines, and decide, to the best of your ability, based on those facts. Myself, I almost always over do things just a tad, so I'd likely get the Cabinets saw, but I have used well tuned and properly set up contractor saws for many years with good results.

Just for clarity..........The PCS and ICS are both cabinet saws.

[Bob Feeser]

Since you've already decided on a SAWSTOP (congratulations, by the way) ... I would disregard the brand and focus on your present and perceived future needs. If you were comparing Grizzly or Delta, which way would you go .. Contractor/Cabinet ??? Honestly look at all the features offered by both machines, and decide, to the best of your ability, based on those facts. Myself, I almost always over do things just a tad, so I'd likely get the Cabinets saw, but I have used well tuned and properly set up contractor saws for many years with good results.

I don't know if this is relevant or not since I do not have the specific saws you are referring to. However I have an old circa 1950's contractors saw that was mounted on a stand, and after my Dad used it for a lot of years, I too used it until one day I discovered that there was a sway back mule valley in the middle. When laying a straight edge from front to back the dip in the middle was something like an 1/8". So that was the last saw I would ever get, one that attached the motor and arbor to the cast iron saw top. The cabinet saws like my PM66 attach the motor to the cabinet. The cast iron top is only attached to the base, not the motor. Hope this helps.

The included photo is the Sears circa 1950's saw. It makes a nice double for making straight cuts on boards but you can't do any kerfing with it. It also made a nice platform for some router tables.

[Bob Feeser]

Norm Abrams uses a 3 hp. I just bought a Shop Fox 15" planer with a 3hp motor on it. However I did pop for the 5 on them PM66 whereas the cost difference was only 2 or 3 hundred dollars. Once you get to 2500 the difference to 2700 wasn't all that much. I am not familiar with the PCS vs the ICS and what the cost difference is. It sounds like the difference is more than just the hp.

[Neil Brooks]

What does Scott Phillips use ??

Anybody know ?

The guy seems to feed lumber like it's in the HOV lane :)

[Neil Brooks]

FWIW:

PCS SPECS (http://www.sawstop.com/products/professional-cabinet-saw/specs/)

ICS SPECS (http://www.sawstop.com/products/industrial-cabinet-saw/specs/)

I bought the 220V, 1ph, 5HP ICS, about 6wks ago. Sadly, it'll live in the crates, in my garage, until we finally move -- maybe 6mos. Too heavy to move into my basement shop, and ... add 220V ... isn't worth it, for the short wait ... brutal, though it may be :)

[Prashun Patel]

I've had the PCS for a year. I'm about as avid/addicted a hobbyist as they come. The saw has plenty of power. I've not once wanted for more cowbell.