Speed Tenons

[Adam Cormier]

Hey all,


I'm not sure if this has been shown before but I just saw this on FineWoodworking.


I like the idea, simple and easy to do. Just have to be cautious moving the wood on the tablesaw laterally.....but, shouldn't we always be???


http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/42295/behold-the-speed-tenon/?&lookup=auto&V18=&V19=&V20=&V21=&V22=&V23=&V24=&V25=&V26=&V53=&V54=&Taun_Per_Flag=true&utm_source=email&utm_medium=eletter&utm_term=tablesaw-safety&utm_content=20111105-worlds-fastest-tenon&utm_campaign=fine-woodworking-eletter

[Peter Quinn]

I've been doing that same basic thing to make hinge mortising templates for years out of MDF. It definitely works going sideways, though I don't know that ultimately it would make very speedy tenons if enough parts were involved. And it makes LOTS if dust. Frankly I prefer to remove the bulk of the waste as a solid when ever possible. Perhaps a hybrid BS/TS technique would be even quicker? You could drop most of the material in two quick rough freehand cuts at the BS, then tune them up using the "crab walk" tenon. Sorry, I'm trying to give it some kind of name that fits?

I figure if you need to make just a few, than the multiple passes required for that sideways tenon would be off set by the quick set up time. But if you had to make dozens? Not so sure its really all that speedy. What I like better from FWW is Garret Hack's two blade tenons using a spacer and tenoning jig. I can see that being a bit more intense to set up, but once set you could produce thousands very quickly and accurately. One pass, two cheeks, dead accurate, what's not to like. That vid is part of his table with curved drawer series. Also worth a look IMHO.

Imagine you had to make 8 dining room chairs, maybe ladder backs or something A&C style. Would you want to take that many passes to get there?

[Chris Kennedy]

I use a similar technique for small tenons or half-laps, and usually for rough work. I define the shoulder on the first pass, and use the blade to nibble away most of the waste by repeated passes through. Once the bulk of the material has been removed, I will run the stock over the blade laterally to clean up the cut.

I still have to fine tune it. I still spend time with my shoulder plane.

Cheers,

Chris

[Stephen Cherry]

They didn't show the fitting of the tenon into the mortise, because it took forever.

I'm convinced that the key to speed tenons is cutting both cheeks at the same time, with the tenon tool matched up to the moritsing tool. The shaper works well for this, as would a table saw using two blades. the problem with flipping the board over and cutting from two sides is that any innacuracy in the thickness transfers into the tenon. So while the video shows producing a tenon relatively quickly, there is no garantee that it will fit into the hole.

[John Coloccia]

THAT'S the "world's fastest tenon"? Really? Aside from the awkward motions that require pushing your hand right at the blade, there's no way to end up with a straight tenon. At best, it will have only small waves. How do you even setup the blade? If you set it by the height of the blade, you will end up with a tenon that's too big because the blade cuts full height only at the peak.

What's the point of using machines to do joinery if you're going to do a bunch of extra work and end up with a sloppy job? I'm pretty sure I could cut a tenon on the bandsaw in a fraction of the time, have it come out more accurately and it would be far safer. Certainly, I could do a faster tenon with a tenoning jig, setup time included. I may even be able to beat that with a handsaw, frankly, and it would be a precision fit.

[keith micinski]

No matter what its definitely more unsafe then the usual uses of a table saw. IT works and I actually clean my small tenons up that way if there is any unevenness. I bought a tenon jig though and just haven't had a chance to use it yet so hopefully that will be my new go to way to do it.

[Bill Maietta]

The video reminds me of a very helpful comment from Gary Rogowski on one of his instructional videos. He says you will become more adept on your power tools/machines if you first gain skill in using hand tools (rough translation, but I think it catches his gist). If you are comfortable with chisels and hand planes, then this techniques can be quite safe. For many woodworkers who jump right into power tools, then "no" I don't believe it is safe. And "yes" as others have mentioned it will leave you with a slightly scalloped tenon, less so the tighter your passes are. I disagree that this is so bad. Depending on the extent of the scalloping, you could even be adding glue surface... hmm, tongue slightly in cheek.

[Rick Fisher]

I am willing to bet that tennon would need some adjustment with a chisel to fit well..

[Tom Fischer]

Before I owned a cab saw, I used to make tenons like this all the time. Yes, usually need to fine tune them, use a file.

[Ken Massingale]

I must be denser than usual this morning, where's the video??? I just see a photo, brief description and comments.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

I must be denser than usual this morning, where's the video??? I just see a photo, brief description and comments.

Down the page a ways... it loads slow.

[Will Winder]

I've been woodworking for less than a year and came up with this method on my own after a small number of tenons. It was mainly out of necessity since I had very few tools, no dado blade, and making many nibbles with my ATB blade left even worse ridges. It didn't seem particularly dangerous since I would "walk" the board into the blade with my fingers rather than push it directly into the blade with one motion. Honestly I'm more concerned about damaging the bearings by applying lateral pressure to the blade.

As for getting a good fit you just creep the blade up and make test fits until its perfect while cutting the first tenon and then you just cut the rest of them. The very slight scallops probably make the fit even better (if any difference at all) since the high spots will hold the piece in place while leaving small areas for the glue.

That said I now have a bandsaw and will probably just use that for the cheek cuts next time I'm making tenons.

[Rod Sheridan]

Here's the comment I posted in the FWW comments section;

RodSheridan writes: Where do I start?

Once again Fine Woodworking is demonstrating the unsafe operation of a tablesaw.

- no dust collection

- no guard

- fingers too close to the blade

As others have said, if you're making one tenon. it's fast. yet far to risky.

If you're making 20 or 30, it's painfully slow, and far too risky.

I finally gave up on tenon making on the tablesaw because I never could design an easy to use guard with dust collection that could be used for tenoning.

I use the shaper, it has a sliding table, hold down clamps, dust collection and a tenon hood with guard that leaves the cutter enclosed.

It also makes perfectly smooth, repeatable tenons in one pass. It's a case of using machines for what they were equiped to do safely.

This certainly isn't something that FWW should promote as it doesn't advance the state of the art, or improve the safety awareness of how a machine should be used.

It's time for FWW to take a leadership position with shop safety. Would FWW be willing to demonstrate this technique to the local safety authority in their area?

Having worked in commercial wood working plants in Canada, I know that technique would be one that wouldn't fly with the safety authority.

It's time to realise that although we can do these sort of things, they're what leads to further safety restrictions.

If we can't police ourselves, a legislator will do it for us.

Regards, Rod.
Posted: 10:04 am on November 8th


I have to admit that I'm really unable to comprehend the lack of safety awareness that seams to be perpetuated by the media.

Whenever I watch a wood working show, I see saws with no guards because apparently I'm too stupid to understand that there's a blade inside the guard cutting the wood.

The shows also seem to suggest that there are no alternative guards available, or that self fabricated guards could also be effective for situations where the factory guard isn't suitable. The solution is simply to discard the guard, not provide a suitable one or use a different machine that's actually meant to do what we are doing in a safe manner.

Regards, Rod.

[Prashun Patel]

I use a modified version of this: I cut a series of straight kerfs up to the shoulder, then hammer them off, then use the nibble method with a miter fence and the rip fence as a block. In this case, yr basically just cleaning up the nibs.

Sometimes it's so clean, I don't even need to shoulder plane the remainder.

This method - for me - is not about speed; it's about control. You can really tweak the fit easily with this method.

You can safely stand out of the path of the blade, and if your piece is more than 12" long, your hands are actually quite far away from the blade.

Personally, I've never felt the router to be all that safer.

[Peter Quinn]

Another thought? Clearance angle. All blades and cutters have a clearance accomidatiom when used in their intended wa to allow chips to clear and carbide to cool. Pushing stock sideways into a blade means eliminating this clearance angle, o reheating the blade, lateral force on the bearings and saw plate. It smells of premature failure of both saw and blade. And for what advantage? I think this should be renamed the frugal to a fault tenon, because I can think of at least 5 better ways to make tenons, but each requires a greater initial investment in tools.

[Jim Matthews]

In a nutshell; "I was suspicious of Finewoodworking before, now I'm outright skeptical of your editorial stance."
He indicated that they were casting around for ideas to publish.

This is arguably the sort of thing that ends woodworker's shop time, permanently.

If I saw this going on at the last College shop I ran, the student would be permanently barred from machine use.

[Jim Rimmer]

They posted the video asking if it should be included in the mag. I think they will be sorry they ever posted it and certainly hope they don't print the technique.

[Garrett Ellis]

I can't believe they would publish that in a magazine. Hopefully they don't. I understand if it is a technique that some people think of or pick up over the years. I'm sure we all have our own little techniques and 'skills' that aren't necessarily safe. We probably wouldn't teach or recommend them to others, but they work for us.

Being a younger person in this hobby, I am constantly reading and absorbing information and advice on how to work wood better, but by now I know enough to know that this is NOT safe. I am afraid that publishing this technique to a mass audience would lead some not as experienced woodworkers down a dangerous road.

I can't even imagine taking a woodworking class and having the teacher teach this method. I'm glad I am experienced enough to know better, but there are plenty of people that aren't.

[Prashun Patel]

Ok, at the risk of being slammed here - but in the interest of learning: where is the danger? To my understanding, kickback comes from wood contacting the rear of the blade when it's trapped between the blade and the fence.

In this operation, the nibbling happens at the front of the blade. The rip fence prevents the blade from contacting the piece beyond the shoulder, and the miter fence keeps the piece perpendicular to the blade.

The critical thing here is the feed rate, i guess. However, has anyone tried to feed too much of the piece past the path of the teeth in a single pass? I have. It doesn't kick back - it only fails to cut. The only time I'd think it would kick is if you pushed the piece into the rear of the blade. There's not a great risk of this happening with this method.

Having done a variant of this method many times, I can say that it has felt more safe than ripping thin stock or climb cutting with a router.

IMHO, the only flaw with the article is that they're touting the speed benefit of this method. That's the danger. This method requires the operator to be vigilant - not speedy. The real benefit (again IMHO) is that it's very accurate and allows you to sneak up on the fit of a tenon to its mortise - both in its thickness and it's shoulder depth.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Prashun, the dangerous portion is easy, there's no blade guard..........Regards, Rod.

[Prashun Patel]

How's it any more dangerous than a 'non-thru' type of cut like a dado that requires the guard to be removed? If your piece is long enough, your hands will be plenty far from the blade.

In fact, now that I think about it, why does the guard need to be off at all? You can probably do narrow tenons with the guard on.

[Bill Maietta]

I'm with Parshun on this... with one condition met. Don't attempt it if you are a novice. It takes a good sense of control over the workpiece and a strong knowledge of your Tsaw. In an earlier post I mentioned hand tool skills. If you have a strong sense of stabilizing a piece to cut and chisel joinery, I think this can be quite safe. That said, nothing is safe if you're not alert and focused. IMHO that is far more important for safety than always leaving guards on.

[Rod Sheridan]

How's it any more dangerous than a 'non-thru' type of cut like a dado that requires the guard to be removed? If your piece is long enough, your hands will be plenty far from the blade.

In fact, now that I think about it, why does the guard need to be off at all? You can probably do narrow tenons with the guard on.

I'm in agreement, it's not more dangerous than removing the guard for other non through cuts, it's just as dangerous.

All non through cuts require an overarm guard, bridge guard etc.

Regards, Rod

[Peter Aeschliman]

I don't think the blade guard is the only factor that makes this less safe- If you cut your tenons using a dado blade and miter gauge, you wouldn't need to slide your hand toward the blade. You can keep your hands far away from the blade and simply push the miter gauge forward, pull it back, reset, and push it back through. No hands pushing directly toward the blade.

I think it's more dangerous due to how awkward the movement is toward the blade. You have to hold your miter gauge in place with one hand, while sliding the workpiece sideways into the blade. The "feeding" hand can't push the workpiece from the end, so you have to resort to pushing using the sides and face of the workpiece.... Your hand could slip fairly easily.

Really doesn't seem smart to me.

[Prashun Patel]

Peter-
i take your point. I haven't tried the full on method they're presenting in FWW. I cut kerfs, clean out waste, then only clean up using this method. I don't find it awkward. I can't explain it; the piece slides easily and I've not yet had even the hint of a scare.

In fact, I'm more scared doing cross cuts on larger or thicker pieces where there's more chance of blade contact on the aft side of the blade. In fact, on all cross cuts, the offcut piece sits there right next to the spinning blade and sometimes even skids forward. That always makes me nervous. My point is this, all these operations require vigilance and carry some risk of kickback.

I do agree that almost every operation can be engineered to keep hands safely clear from the blade via guards, etc.

[Peter Aeschliman]

For sure. I suppose if your table is well-waxed and your miter gauge face is slippery, it wouldn't be all that much more dangerous than any other cut... but I still think the simple fact that you're sliding your hand toward the blade without a push stick or blade guard makes it less safe.

I definitely hear you on the off-cut thing. In fact, I've found that the blade guard on my sawstop PCS sometimes actually pushes the waste piece back into the blade... You have a sawstop if I remember correctly- the flaps on the side of the blade guard have actually caused smaller off-cuts to be pushed back into the blade and kick back. I have a dent in the door of my shop for this reason. I'm hyper aware of it so I never stand in the line of fire (especially after my fairly significant injury to my forehead). I also try to avoid cuts that produce smaller off-cut pieces that can move into the blade easily... but sometimes it's hard to avoid.

[Stephen Cherry]

where is the danger? .

No slamming, and I can't say that I have never done this sort of thing, but I would say that the safety issue (other than no gaurd and no dust collection) is that the cutting tips on the blade are working at the top of the blade, between about the 11 and 1 oclock position, whereas in a normal table saw cut the blade would be working from the 12 oclock position and later. THe difference being that cutting while the blade travels up lifts the workpiece and pushes back, rather than pushing the workpiece down into the table and back. And I would say that it is the lifting of the workpiece that could cause problems.

[Prashun Patel]

I am not sure I agree with that. The nibbling begins at the very front of the blade - say about 1-2 o'clock position and continues until the last bit of cutting happens at exactly 12 o'clock.

The more I ponder this, the more I conclude that cutting a custom sized tenon is a dangerous operation. With a tenoning jig, if you cut the shoulders off the jig with the miter fence, you need a reliable way to hold the piece down while it travels over the blade. That feels dangerous to me. If you cut it on the router table, you have the same issue. Either way, yr hand is traveling close to the cutter.

A jig is great - but only works for standard sizes and allows no tweaking.

I just want to make sure that we don't confuse 'unconventional' with 'unsafe'.

I'm still undecided and appropriately humble on this and all power tool safety issues...

[Don Wacker]

Ive cut tenons that way for decades. I also do alot of thing that are thought to be unsafe and don't agree with publishing them in a woodworking magazine. Magazines are primarily purchased by new and inexperienced, probably not a good idea to teach bad habits right out of the gate.

Don

[Stephen Cherry]

I am not sure I agree with that. The nibbling begins at the very front of the blade - say about 1-2 o'clock position and continues until the last bit of cutting happens at exactly 12 o'clock.

...

Prashun- I'm not sure about it either, but it seems to me that pushing the wood into the side of the blade would allow the blade to cut on the way up. That said, I can't say that I have never done what they show in the video. I also can't say that I have not done a climb cut on the table saw where you start with the wood behind the blade, touch the wood to the blade, then ease the wood over into a scribed line.

I wouldn't brag about it though, or show someone to do it that way as a proper technique, particularly when there are many ways to make the same cut in a more accurate and faster way.

[glenn bradley]

He made 13 cuts including the shoulder cut. He could have accomplished the same thing with that number of "regular" cuts without the acrobatics.

[phil harold]

I've done the same with a skillsaw

so on a tablesaw it has to be safer...

[johnny means]

I do notches on my miter saw using a similar technique.

[Andrew Hughes]

I dont think i will be trying that on my saw.Looks more like wood grinding than wood cutting.

[Tom O'Donnell]

http://youtu.be/V9JV4qddMNA (http://youtu.be/V9JV4qddMNA)

I suppose over the 60+ years I have been in the woodworking game I may have used the method that was shown. Not That I agree to the procedure. I once favoured the 'Loose' Tenon for a number of years Constructed my Dining room chairs (8) wit at least 20 Tenons to complete the joints.. As from this year I have come up with a Jig capable of producing the Tenon in ten seconds once the jig is made. I would also say it was done with Greater Safety Awareness as well as speed with only one positioning of the material and rounding the ends as well. Sample of a Pine tenon produced when I was preparing for the local Wood show emonstrating my new Super Jig