Backsaw advice

[Jake Elkins]

I know that this question has been posed in various forms already, so sorry for the duplication.

Now that I have an actual workbench, I am thinking that a nice backsaw would make a nice addition. I am thinking about a good all-purpose saw for crosscutting with a bench hook and cutting joints (shoulders and cheeks). I get a little confused with all the saw types that seem to fit this category (sash vs carcass vs tenon vs etc.). I have looked at several possibilities. I think I like the "hybrid" filing offered by Bad Axe for their 14" sash saw http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/14-inch-Sash-tenon-back-saw.html. This appears similar to the Gramercy http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com//Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=GT-SSAW14.XX&Category_Code=CGT. Other makers seem to offer dedicated filings for either rip or xcut in their "large tenon" or "large carcass" saws (e.g. Wenzloff and LN). I am also intrigued by the Veritas molded spine saws, and I could get a pair for less than one of the aforementioned items. I'm happy that there seems to be so many options, but I am a little lost. So, with say a budget of 250 or so (hopefully less), what might be the best avenue? If it helps, I already have the LN dovetail saw, a few Japanese pull saws, and a couple vintage Disston handsaws. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks -

[Mark Baldwin III]

$250 would get you the entire LV back saw collection. I like mine. Though the 14" saws offered by other makers are tempting to me, the longest of the LV's is about 12". I can't speak to the LN's or Bad Axe because I've never used them.

[Richard Line]

I know there will be a lot of advise coming on this question, but I'll throw my fairly novice opinion in the pool. I've got several back saws, including the LV dovetail saw (rip) and recently the LV carcass saw (x-c). They both work very well. My suggestion is to get the pair of carcass saws (1 rip, 1 x-c). They should cover a very wide range of uses. After using these saws, I think they are quite easy to learn to saw joints using both a bench hook and in the vice; they are easy starting a cut. I think their down side may be they don't cut really fast, that is probably due to the relaxed rake angle that helps make them easy starting.

I've not used a 'hybrid' filed saw, but I suspect they may be like a lot of all-purpose things - they can do a lot, but are not great at any one thing.

As I said at the top, I'm pretty well in the novice/learner category.

[Jim Koepke]

I wouldn't get caught up in the names so much as the purpose.

Your profile doesn't indicate your location. Any chance you can visit one of the LN tool events or maybe live close to another member?

I was thinking looking for used saws and sharpening them yourself if that is something you want to learn.

Then I thought about in all my years of rust hunting I have only found two back saws.

You might be looking for a long time on the second hand route.

jtk

[Rick Lasita]

Hi Jake, all the makers you listed make fine saws indeed. I can highly recommend Bad Axe, I recently purchased the 16" saw sharpened hybrid. Absolutely love it, Mark does a fine job. I have a couple of
LN saws, can't comment on the others.

[Jake Elkins]

Thank you gentlemen for the advice/opinions so far.

I guess I am hoping that out there is a saw that I can use for almost "everything else" i.e., when making cuts that are not dovetail scale or ripping hardwood. Just from reading some of the literature for the Gramercy and Bad Axe saws, it appears that maybe this is what they are (or claim to be).

I've done the second-hand route for most of my hand tools, and I agree that I haven't seen too many back saws. I've picked up a few fixer-uppers, and I think that I've managed to learn to sharpen well enough that they work well now.

I would one day love to have dedicated tools for specific tasks, but that is outside my budget for a long while. I guess I would like to learn from the masters here: If you could only have one large back saw for a few years, which would you choose (and why)?

Thanks again

[Jim Koepke]

If you could only have one large back saw for a few years, which would you choose (and why)?

If I could only keep one of my back saws, it would be my 16" Disston. It is filed for crosscut, but it can handle shallow rips.

I do a lot of work with 2X fir and the Disston is great for cutting that on the bench top.

If I could find another just like it, then it would be filed rip for a matched pair.

jtk

[Dale Cruea]

I am going to follow this thread to the end.
I have most of the same questions.
I have a few saws I picked up. A pull saw -OK - but not what I wanted. A back saw from Lynx - cross cut - makes a mess out of dovetails. A Crown gents saw for dovetails - nice smooth cut when you can get it to work and not bind. Takes forever.
I need a good saw(s) for dovetails that will cut straight and not look like I used a chain saw to do it.
I know next to nothing about saws. They go back and forth and make saw dust.

[James Owen]

One large back saw?

My choice would be a 16" crosscut tenon saw.

It will do a great job of crosscutting shoulders, etc., as well as being quite serviceable for cutting tenons (although it will probably be a bit slower than a rip tenon saw of the same size, because the teeth are typically a bit finer). A 16" tenon saw will give you 3.5" cutting depth, more or less, which should be more than sufficient for almost any furniture-scale work. The height of the blade also makes it easier to keep the blade vertical, which will help with sawing more accurately. I don't have any experience with "hybrid" filed saws, so can't make any comment on those.

For new saws, Lie-Nielsen and Bad Axe are two brands that you can't go wrong with. The Gramercy, LV, and Wenzloff saws all have very good reputations; except for the LV, I don't have any first-hand experience with them (the LV was a carcass saw and was very nice).

If you decide on vintage, Disston, Simmonds, and Atkins are some of the better-known, high-quality US saw makers, but there are plenty of others, as well. Spear & Jackson is a well-regarded English saw maker.

(My saw arsenal includes the LN 16" tenon saws in both rip and crosscut; both are excellent saws that I am very happy with. I don't have a Bad Axe -- yet, but have used one belonging to a friend several times -- also an excellent saw.)

[Chris Griggs]

One large back saw?

My choice would be a 16" crosscut tenon saw.



+1 on this or a 14". Actually, if I had to choose, I'd rather have one large rip over one large xcut, as I find it easier to xcut with a rip as opposed to the other way around, but for what you describe as your needs - Yes, a large 14" or 16" xcut is probably the way to go.

I would be hesitant to buy a hybrid saw, not because I think it wouldn't work (I'm sure it would work fantastic), but because in the long wrong you will probably want dedicated purpose saws anyway. Of course, you could start with a hybrid saw, and just refile it at a dedicated rip or xcut, when you nest of saws expands.

[Joel Moskowitz]

We were the first company to offer a combo filed saw. The reason was that while doing the research for the "Joiner and Cabinetmaker" I realized that nobody had pairs of saws on a regular basis. Thomas in the book uses a dovetail and sash, both filed combo. Other historical sources show this as pretty common behavior. In reality the number of times you need a large saw to saw large cheeks rip is pretty small compared to constant xcut trimming. All a combo saw is (in our case anyway) is a rip saw with a small amount of rake and a little fleam. And in hardwood it's a perfect xcut saw (in softwood it's pretty good too but not as omptimal) as a rip saw it's as aggressive as any rip. So when it came to manufacturing time we could not think of any reason to offer both a dedicated rip and a dedicated xcut. So we didn't.

The historic reason for Rip and Xcut being completely different is that by the mid 19th century most wood construction in the US was presawn softwood (pine) 2x4, 4x6 ,etc. Therefore the overwhelming amount of sawing on a jobsite was xcutting softwood to length. So everyone wanted to do that more efficiently. So you get dedicated saws with a 60 rake angle and lots, lots of fleam which makes for a fast xcut in softwoods. But the teeth don't last in hardwood, and they are perfectly useless for ripping. So you need more saws (Ron Hermans's saw sharping video details specialized filings for all sorts of woods and conditions which makes sense if the cost of more saws is low)

But getting back to cabinetry, for hardwood, the combo filing makes tons of sense and for all of us in the shop, has become the go-to saw when we do any sawing.

Joel
TFWW

[Chris Griggs]

Interesting info Joel - thanks for chimming in. One thing for the OP to keep in mind is that, as you pointed out, your saw is closer to a rip with a little bit of fleam (which would be my preference). Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Bad Axe hybrid has more fleam and is more in the middle of xcut and rip. I don't if one would be better than the other for the OP - just some food for thought.

[Jason Coen]

I'd rather have one large rip over one large xcut, as I find it easier to xcut with a rip as opposed to the other way around

I absolutely agree. If I had to have one back saw, I'd go with either a 14" or 16" saw filed rip. Any time you're going to be doing a precision crosscut you will want to strike a line and then remove a bit of waste to ensure a clean shoulder, and after you do that it doesn't matter if the saw is filed rip or crosscut when you make the cut since the shoulder has been already cleanly cut by your knife.

I've never tried a hybrid filed back saw that I liked to use when ripping. They all have had a gummy or rubbery feel that I just didn't like.

On that note - hey Joel, any chance you'd offer your sash saw filed rip instead of hybrid?

[Chris Griggs]

On that note - hey Joel, any chance you'd offer your sash saw filed rip instead of hybrid?

Joel's hybrid is one I'd actually like to try as it is - it only has 7 degrees of fleam, which could make for some very smooth ripping without slowing things down much. It really seems like it would be more of a modified rip than a full on hybrid.

I had a little 10" saw 12ppi saw that filed 10 degrees of fleam into as an experiment, and it ripped wonderfully (of course I only used it for very small rips).

I'm still inclined to recommend that the OP get a dedicated rip or xcut, but looking at the specs on the Gramercy saw, it could be a nice option.

[Jason Coen]

Joel's hybrid is one I'd actually like to try as it is - it only has 7 degrees of fleam, which could make for some very smooth ripping without slowing things down much. It really seems like it would be more of a modified rip than a full on hybrid.

I had a little 10" saw 12ppi saw that filed 10 degrees of fleam into as an experiment, and it ripped wonderfully (of course I only used it for very small rips).

Yeah, I've tried it, and it came the closest to what I'm looking for. Still not quite there, though. I think I may order the kit (I've already done a rip and xcut carcase saw kits - the xcut carcase saw is probably my favorite saw) and just re-file it myself.

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah, I've tried it, and it came the closest to what I'm looking for. Still not quite there, though. I think I may order the kit (I've already done a rip and xcut carcase saw kits - the xcut carcase saw is probably my favorite saw) and just re-file it myself.

Sounds like a good plan to me - certainly wouldn't take long to take the fleam out.

[Jason Coen]

I'm still inclined to recommend that the OP get a dedicated rip or xcut, but looking at the specs on the Gramercy saw, it could be a nice option.

It really is a great saw, and would be a great option for the OP. Joel is exactly right about the xcuts it produces in hardwood.

Plus, it would be easy enough to file to a dedicated rip saw in the future when the OP is able to expand his saw nest by adding dedicated saws for xcut and rip.

[Jim Matthews]

Get the Bad Axe "jack" saw.

You might not need another. It's expensive, true enough.
It's worth every penny.

Just be careful in handling the blade guard, the damn thing is sharp enough to cut the unwary user.
DAMHIKT

[Eugenio Musto]

I strongly suggest to buy the lv carcass saw,it works well on middle size tenon and you can save money for the 14" lv tenon saw that Rob Lee announced some time ago..