Venting about grinders

[Mark Baldwin III]

Just need to let off some steam. Here's the story...a couple of years ago (about 6 to be exact) my Dad and I bought a bunch of tools for his workshop. In particular, the bench grinder was worn out. The grinder in question was a belt driven General brand (I refer to these as suicide grinders). We replaced it with a 6" Craftsman. The Craftsman has been performing very well. In fact, today I went to his house to regrind the iron for my skew rebate plane, since I don't have a grinder at my house. I know, I know...why don't you have a grinder, Mark? Well, I'm cheap (actually, poor). Big repairs/regrinds on my irons have been done almost exclusively on a granite plate with sandpaper. This is a royal PITA. So, on returning from his house, I found a gift card for Sears in my junk drawer. "Awesome!!" I said, "I can go get a grinder!" No idea where the gift card came from. I probably threw it in the junk drawer because I'm so sick of Craftsman tools. Yeah, I love their wrenches and sockets...but anything they make that has electricity running through it has become such low quality crap. But, hey...I've got a gift card! (and my Dad's grinder is pretty nice).
Anyway, long story longer. I brought home my brandy new 6" bench grinder, ready to repair some irons and fix up a pair of old chisels. Boy, was I wrong! This thing was such a POS that I could practically smell it when I opened the box.

[Mark Baldwin III]

On the bright side, I'm not a complete idiot! I kept the General grinder (which, incidentally has a Craftsman motor) when we replaced it. The motor is very quiet. I'll replace the belt and the bearings and be on my way. New wheels too, of course. I'm thinking a 36 grit on one side and a 60 on the other. I'll need to mill up some new tool rests as well. This grinder was my Grampa's and I'm sure he'd approve.
The new tool rests have nothing to do with quality. One is missing, and the other is not adjustable. It's also an excuse to burn up a few lunch breaks at work on the milling machine.
I'll probably put the nitty gritty details of the restoration on my blog, for anyone who is interested in old suicide grinders.

[john davey]

Solid as sears is gone forever sadly. But I still think you got a lemon/return there. That looks like some really bad stuff even for them. I honestly can't even tell from the picture what the heck is going on with the tool rest. But I can't believe that is how they are ??? Take it back and get the grinder at Woodcraft the next time the put it on sale. To many good responses on that one. That is what I am waiting for :)

John

[David Weaver]

I would just go exchange it for another one at sears - until you get a good one. All of these places that guarantee they'll sell you a good one, just get a few until you actually get a good one. i doubt it cost them much more than about $5 to have that grinder made, and a few bucks to get it to the store, so you're paying to get a low-cost grinder and the right to go through a few until you get a good one.

My ryobi was no pearl, but I used it for a long while before I got a baldor. I had to clamp it down because it would run, but it did grind chisels and plane irons just fine (it had two-piece aluminum rests like that one, and the current ryobi grinder does not).

[Mark Baldwin III]

I lost faith when I got my miter saw from them. Or should I say, when my Dad got me a miter saw from them. A nice Christmas gift, I thought. But after three trips to the repair center, I was done with Craftsman. Today's little episode would not have even happened if I didn't find the gift card tucked away in a drawer. This grinder is going back, I'm not accepting an exchange. I'm sure as hell not accepting credit. Today was the last time that Sears ever sees my money! It was the first time they'd seen my money for a while anyway, due to similar quality problems. I'll restore the suicide grinder and be happy in my old-timey grinder bliss.

[george wilson]

I still use my first Sears flat face grinder from 1963,and have the one my step father left me. I like the flat face motors as they clear the handles of tools like draw knives. And,their tool rests are "double jointed",so I can turn them inside out and catch the bolsters of carving tools with them. That makes it effortless to quench the chisels,and put them back on the grinder at exactly the same bevel angle.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I honestly can't even tell from the picture what the heck is going on with the tool rest. But I can't believe that is how they are ???

Scary, eh? My first reaction was that I could throw it into the mill and make it right. Then I thought, that's exactly the same work that my General needs! If I'm going to do that level of work, I'm going to ditch this thing and restore my Grampa's grinder. That's a lot more satisfying in my book.
George-the General grinder is probably only slightly newer than your flat face. (that sounded mean!) Too bad it doesn't have the higher end tool rest like you describe. I'm pretty handy with a mill and a lathe and can make most things I want. Machine work is something I enjoy, so this restoration could be fun for me. I spent several years away from my two favorite tools (the mill and lathe), but I'm getting reacquainted with them as of late.

[george wilson]

My tool rests are just bent from 1/8"steel,but they have always worked just fine. I have no lighted visors,or anything fancy. The grinder still runs as good as new,though. The bigger one does have a lamp,at least. We had an OLD Delta grinder at work I hated to leave. Real quality piece.

[Andrew Arndts]

I purchased a grinder from Tractor Suppy, 8" for $50. couple of years ago. I haven't had an issue with it. Knock on wood.

[Jim Koepke]

Mark,

I am curious about the origin of the name "suicide grinder." Is there a story behind this?

As to the Craftsman grinder, I would try an exchange in the store or keep it for the motor. I would think about going back and letting them know they are selling junk, but in today's world I kind of doubt you would find anyone who cared.

We are in an economic mess and in my opinion, the race to find the lowest cost on everything is what led us here.

Lowest wage workers in Bangladesh are not going to be anymore motivated to produce a good product than lowest wage workers anywhere else.

jtk

[Jeff Wittrock]

Lol. I really like the picture of the "Offset tooth washer". I would think whoever (or whatever) put the thing together would have had to try real hard to get it like that. I would think it would have been easier to put it on the right way.

I have a Delta that is no gem, but it was on clearance a few years ago so the price was right at the time. I have always intended to make replacement tool rests for it but never seem to get around to it.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Mark,

I am curious about the origin of the name "suicide grinder." Is there a story behind this?


No real story, Jim. I started calling belt driven grinders "suicide grinders" years ago. Mostly do to the poorly tensioned belt, worn out bearings, and unbalanced wheels. I think it's funny that when some of the people I know hear that term for the first time, they instantly know what I'm talking about. That, and I'm a gearhead, so anything we can put "suicide" in front of just sounds cooler ;)
If I didn't have the General sitting there begging for a rebuild, I might have opted to improve the Craftsman. But the restoration is only a little more work, and will lend a more satisfying result.

Jeff- The washer blew my mind. I literally sat staring at it for a couple minutes asking, "WTF?"

[Andrae Covington]

No real story, Jim. I started calling belt driven grinders "suicide grinders" years ago. Mostly do to the poorly tensioned belt, worn out bearings, and unbalanced wheels. I think it's funny that when some of the people I know hear that term for the first time, they instantly know what I'm talking about. That, and I'm a gearhead, so anything we can put "suicide" in front of just sounds cooler ;)
If I didn't have the General sitting there begging for a rebuild, I might have opted to improve the Craftsman. But the restoration is only a little more work, and will lend a more satisfying result.

Jeff- The washer blew my mind. I literally sat staring at it for a couple minutes asking, "WTF?"

"Suicide grinder" will seem even more apt if you've read this John Economaki blog post (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/2010/10/25/5-for-a-18-twist-drill-only-in-america/) that I've linked to before, about when he visited a factory in China ~10 years ago that was making bench grinders.


About 10 years ago I was in an OEM Chinese factory that made bench grinders. You have seen them, ½ HP motor, two 6” grinding wheels, pig tail cord, a small plastic face shield and no nameplate—these would be attached by the American companies that bought them. The total cost per grinder, landed in the US was $7.15. Of course at this price it would be asking too much for a UL tag.

These grinders were, and still are being sold here and the prices range from $49 to $200– awesome margins by any standard.

Behind the factory floor there was a small mountain of insulated wire that had been pulled from old cars, appliances, televisions and the like and it was replenished daily. Surrounding the wire mountain were a couple of dozen women who were stripping the wire of insulation. These wire remnants were then spliced together and used in the grinder motor windings. Completely illegal, and dangerous. But cheap.

The idiom "you get what you pay for" has been around a long time. Increasingly, it seems you don't even get that much.:(

[John McClanahan]

There IS an advantage to that belt drive grinder. You can replace the large motor pulley with a small one to slow the wheels down for sharpening. A linked belt will make it run smoother too.

John

[Mark Baldwin III]

There IS an advantage to that belt drive grinder. You can replace the large motor pulley with a small one to slow the wheels down for sharpening. A linked belt will make it run smoother too.

John
Yup, that has occurred to me. I'll have to measure the wheels to see exactly what the ratio is, but it appears to be 2:1 or slightly less. The motor spins at 1750rpm, bringing the speed in line with a normal high speed bench grinder. I know there's differing opinions on which is better (slow vs fast) and I could experiment with that with only the change of a pulley.

Andrae-Believe it or not, that quote you posted was running through my head when I bought the grinder. It should have been enough to stop me.
At any rate, I managed to get some hollow edges put onto some of my irons yesterday at my Dad's place. Everything should be hunky-dory until I finish the General. The Craftsman has been returned. The only downside is that because I used a gift card, I was made to accept a gift card as part of the refund. I have to shop at sears one more time before I write them off, I'll buy my new belt or the mounting hardware with it.

[george wilson]

The trouble with that General grinder,unless I'm seeing the picture wrong,is that the tool rests are at 90 degrees from the wheel,and cannot be tilted.

[Mark Baldwin III]

The trouble with that General grinder,unless I'm seeing the picture wrong,is that the tool rests are at 90 degrees from the wheel,and cannot be tilted.

You're seeing it exactly right, George. I'm going to make new ones. That might be a good idea for a thread...something along the lines of "Let's design the perfect tool rests."

[Jonathan McCullough]

I'm watching this thread with great interest. There's a big pile of chisels in my shop that want sharpening, and usually just freehand sharpen, I've been wanting to experiment with hollow grinding. My grinder(s), a hand model, as well as an old Delta dry/wet grinder, have terrible tool rests. Many will perhaps disapprove since it is a Craftsman model, and I usually sharpen freehand, but I pulled the trigger on item number 260881064009 at the popular auction site that dare not speak its name. It has since arrived, and while you'd probably have to quench with a sponge or something, it appears to offer consistency.

[Mark Baldwin III]

That looks pretty neat, let us know when you put it to work. Old/vintage Craftsman stuff is actually pretty good. A Craftsman hand plane that I just got is one helluva performer. The motor for my suicide grinder is Craftsman too, runs quiet and with no vibration.
I need to spend some time with my hand grinder. It's gotten me beat as for a way to tighten up on the wheel and still be able to spin it. I've been considering a ball or roller thrust bearing, because the bronze one I put on didn't work at all.

[mike holden]

Lol. I really like the picture of the "Offset tooth washer". I would think whoever (or whatever) put the thing together would have had to try real hard to get it like that. I would think it would have been easier to put it on the right way.

Jeff, There was no effort involved, it was likely installed automatically. The screw was fed into the driver, and the washer fed over the screw, and the driver torqued the screw in place. Problem was a mis-feed. Unfortunately, automation does not negate the need for inspection, although most facilities think so.
Mike, who worked in manufacturing quality

[Jonathan McCullough]

I hear ya Mark. The attachment has a bit of a time attaching to my grinder, so I obviously I have to over-engineer something suitable, maybe with a threaded feed. I've also snagged about three hand grinders and they all have the problem you're talking about. Plus, when they slow down the stone wobbles and the nut starts to unthread. I have an old lathe that uses a thrust bearing made by Smiley Mfg of Chicago, but I suppose a Timken type bearing of the appropriate size would be fine. Maybe connect it to a treadle, with a weightlifting weight as a flywheel . . . .

[Bill White]

Makes ya wonder if any of the marketing/design folks at Sears EVER study the general opinions about their crappy tools.
My old C'man equipment is American made, and works well. The new stuff SUUUCCCKKKS!!!!!
What a shame.
Maybe we should start a "campaign/complain". Ain't that a cute play on words?
Bill

[David Weaver]

Well, the post earlier about $7 grinders pretty much guarantees we will not be seeing a lot of quality power tools at anything other than industrial supply or ultra high-end specialty.

They can take those grinders and such things and put them on the shelves for $7, and probably still sell more than they would've if they had quality grinders, and make not only more % margin on each one, but probably also more absolute profit than they would if they went to a european, japanese or US origin grinder, if such a thing even existed outside of the baldor quality level.

Look at what's happened to the tools that are pushed by the woodworking retailers and catalogs. It's hard for me to open them up any longer, even in the last 5 years pretty much everything (this is my perception, i'm sure some exceptions could be found) that is gadget or whatever is replaced by some import version that you might find 8 other places with different badges, and sold at 80% of the price of what a good tool used to cost. The only exception I can see is the fein/festool stuff that everyone has, because most of that kind of stuff is price controlled.

It can be extrapolated to Bean and duluth outfitters and such, too. I guess they will all still service what they sell, but everything in the catologs save a very few things are imported. I think the era of mid-range goods being very close to top range quality is over. It's now the era of low production cost and high churn, and the low production costs make it way too attractive for a retailer to do anything else, to the point that a retailer may not even be able to stay in business now if they didn't use that model.

[Jim Koepke]

Makes ya wonder if any of the marketing/design folks at Sears EVER study the general opinions about their crappy tools.
My old C'man equipment is American made, and works well. The new stuff SUUUCCCKKKS!!!!!

Sometimes I wonder if the marketing/design folks ever have used any of the stuff they come up with. I really start wondering when I see one of those combo rasp/chisel/paint can opener tools.

jtk

[Jonathan McCullough]

Well, geopolitical trade considerations aside, what makes a good quality grinder? The things I think I'd identify would be--
Sealed motor
multiple bearings (4?), with dust caps
A heavy casting
ported spark/debris collectors
And then what would you vent those sparks and dust to? A pan of water followed by some sort of filtration system?
At $800 for a Baldor it may be almost be worth it to make one to your own specifications. Mark, I nominate you!!!

[David Weaver]

Apparently, they sell those things well. Because as the good stuff drops off the shelf at HD and is replaced with stuff made in mexico and china, those rasps/combo/chisels things are either remaining or becoming two or three similar items.

I saw a home-diy show a couple of months ago where someone mentioned one of those 4-in-1 tools as something really handy for a DIY person to use.

It doesn't matter if it's good, it only matters if it makes cash cross the scanner!

(and from above, I shouldn't suggest that everything was good at sears and suppliers and such before this 15-year shift of everything midrange going from US to mexico or worse. My relatives in some cases were the folks who bought entry level tools only, and while the mid-range tools at sears and such were good (and they were somewhat expensive compared to real wage levels, which would explain why people didn't buy piles of stuff like we do now), the low-end stuff no matter where you get it has always been junk. Junky junk junk. My relatives have plenty of stamped and pot-metal softly made stuff that should never have been made that proudly displays that it was made in illinois, etc, or wherever. )

[David Weaver]

Well, geopolitical trade considerations aside, what makes a good quality grinder? The things I think I'd identify would be--
Sealed motor
multiple bearings (4?), with dust caps
A heavy casting
ported spark/debris collectors
And then what would you vent those sparks and dust to? A pan of water followed by some sort of filtration system?
At $800 for a Baldor it may be almost be worth it to make one to your own specifications. Mark, I nominate you!!!

I think an 8 inch baldor is unnecessary for most woodworkers, and I like the hollow off a 6" grinder better, anyway. Plus, with a quality 8 inch grinder, you run around 100 pounds, and then it automatically costs freight charges for shipping.

But to your comment, a good import grinder is a good grinder. You just might have to get one or two (or sometimes more) to find out, and the ones that are decent are on the order of $100, anyway. I don't know about the variable speed stuff, I trust a simple switch more if I expect the grinder to work until I'm no longer woodworking. Everything I've ever bought with variable speeds ends up on a speed and never changes, anyway.

It should be possible for an importer to have a grinder made just as good as a baldor grinder overseas, but nobody cares to, because doing something like that takes people on site and a lot of effort and tinkering. and it probably wouldn't make any difference in sales, at least not initially.

I paid, I think, $305 or something delivered for the baldor grinder with cast guards and a 2 piece cast tool rest. I don't think it can be gotten quite as cheaply as that now, but it can be gotten for not much more, or TFWW's version with $80+ worth of wheels on it can be gotten for pretty much what I paid plus the wheels.

I don't think it was a necessary purchase looking back, but on grinder #2 with both being junk, I didn't feel like screwing around and going through 3 or 4 more to find one that accidentally ended up being a good import grinder, and spending $100 or more on an import 6" grinder (like palmgren) was bothering me as rewarding the system that was making me buy a third one to begin with.

I personally don't consider dust ports a necessity, though the grinder I use has them. I don't have them hooked to anything, the grinder itself is just wisely pointed away from my woodworking area, and though it's not that far away, I have never seen a foreign speck of wheel or steel on anything I've worked.

[john brenton]

SEARS just depresses the heck out me. Unless it's a simple hand tool, or a mechanics tool, everything in there is junk. You look in old catalogs of Sears, or Montgomery Wards, and it just makes your heart sink.

[Jerome Hanby]

I know exactly what you mean. I used to get their tool catalog every year when my parents went to Sears and drool over the tools, planning what I was going to have someday. By the time I had a place and the money, they no longer had anything worth having. I have a Craftsman table saw (pretty sure it was made by Ryobi), a half sheet sander I basically stole from my dad, and a $5 dollar circular saw I picked up on CL so I wouldn't have to take my Hitachi out of the PPS carriage. Oh yea, I also have an ancient jig saw I bought at the Anniston end of the worlds longest yard sale one year because it was similar to the one my dad had when I was growing up.


SEARS just depresses the heck out me. Unless it's a simple hand tool, or a mechanics tool, everything in there is junk. You look in old catalogs of Sears, or Montgomery Wards, and it just makes your heart sink.

[george wilson]

Even the Craftsman wrenchs are said by MOST of the machinists on other fora to be no good these days. I'm glad I got mine years ago.

[Mark Baldwin III]

At $800 for a Baldor it may be almost be worth it to make one to your own specifications. Mark, I nominate you!!!
It's on my list of things to do. My General grinder is a step in the right direction. I am fine with no spark collectors. The narrow body motors are also a nice touch, more room to work. That, of course, is not a problem in a grinder with an external motor.