Tools - not all are UL or CSA certified

[Patrick Galpin]

Just got off the phone with Ken B, Technical Services Person in Charge (that is the actual title he gave me) at Grizzly regarding the lack of a UL label or CSA label on two machines I recently bought. The units are G0454Z 20" spherical head planer and G0609X 12" spherical head jointer, neither of which are certified. I assumed, wrongly as it turns out, that certification, Underwriters Lab and or Canadian Standards Association, would be required for a company to sell them to the public, or at least they would warn potential customers if the units are not certified. Turns out, they note if a unit IS certified, but not if it is not. Has anybody else run into this problem and how did you get them passed for insurance issues? Is this typical behavior for a company like Grizzly? I am now debating buying anything from them in the future.

[Don Wacker]

I have never had a problem with UL or no UL with my insurance company. They do like to see that the motors above 3hp are UL but not the entire machine. Even the motors that are not UL have not excluded me from any coverages.

Don

[Bill White]

Though I have not had any issues, I can't forsee any problems with any Grizz stuff. I have a TS and a lathe. I'll continue to use 'em as a reputable company. Price/value has been excellent. I trust 'em, and have had no insurance questions.
Bill

[Ron Jones near Indy]

I have never had a problem with UL or no UL with my insurance company. They do like to see that the motors above 3hp are UL but not the entire machine. Even the motors that are not UL have not excluded me from any coverages.

Don

I wonder if they didn't say anything but just bumped the rates a little to cover potential problems? Don't take me wrong. I don't know; just a little curious I guess.

[Don Wacker]

I wonder if they didn't say anything but just bumped the rates a little to cover potential problems? Don't take me wrong. I don't know; just a little curious I guess.

I dont think so. The only time it really matters to much in the US is when your shop has employees. Where I live in WA its OSHA that may have issue but the UL sticker on a motor is usually the least of your or their worries. They care about guards, wiring, dust collection and things like that.

Don

[Peter Quinn]

Certifications cost money. I'm guessing they just don't certify you for free? Certifications and permits never work like that from most governmental offices. THey need money to go about the good business of certifying things for us, and that is wrapped up in the price of the certified goods. So just how does the low price leader hit those low prices? No fancy UL labels? Reduced marketing costs and efficiency gains only go so far. you have to cut corners some where. So its up to each consumer to decide what value they place on these certifications, or if for professional purposes, the users insurance company? Perhaps you can look into the cost of having the tools certified your self and see if this is off set by reductions in insurance premiums?

Question; Does the UL certificate mean the goods are better than those without it? What if any standards are these tools held to? I have a few euro tools that TTBOMK have no UL listing, but they are held to what some consider a higher standard and have the CE stamp. And both being Italian, I was told by my phase convertor tech, the motors are actually held to an even higher standard than the CE requires (which for meant meant more start windings, a harder starting load, this the need for a slightly larger and more expensive phase convertor). Fact is I have no idea what any of that means in reality, but the tools work great and thus meet my standards.

I assumed that any reputable manufacturer would take the trouble to have their tools certified, and still do. No I wonder which of my machines may or may not be certified having never checked so much as one?

[Lloyd McKinlay]

I recently had a similar issue with Grizzly. The electrical inspector in my area checks machines for certification and has, on at least a couple of occasions, required an independent engineers inspection ($$$$$) if he could not locate verification the motor met US standards. I exchanged a couple emails with Grizzly regarding this and got the same response both times...We do not warrant or represent that our merchandise complies with the provisions of any laws, acts or electrical codes.

[Eric DeSilva]

It is my understanding UL and other certifications can be quite costly. The absence of a UL or other certification doesn't mean that a device doesn't comply with relevant safety standards, but rather that a manufacturer hasn't sought such a certification.

[Paul McGaha]

I wonder if the other manufacturers do the same with the certifications?

Delta, Powermatic, Others?

I cant say that I've ever noticed on my tools.

PHM

[Eric DeSilva]

I believe G's practice is consistent with what I've seen--that machines and devices that have UL or other certifications are marked that way and ones that are not are not. I don't understand why you think this is a lie by omission--no one as far as I know does anything differently.(*) Did your electrical inspector say certification was required? I don't understand that at all.

(*) I don't recall ever having seen a device that said "This device is NOT UL certified."

[Mark Engel]

I would think that all manufacturers fail to provide a list of all of the things that the machines they are selling do not have. Like Eric, I have never seen any indication on any machine I have purchased that stated that it is not UL or CSA certified.

[Bruce Page]

Grizzly, or ANY manufacture is not required to have the stamp of approval you desire. I looked through several of my manuals for my Delta, Powermatic, and MiniMax machines and didn’t find mention of electrical, or any other kind certification in any of them.

[Larry Edgerton]

My construction company pays for liability insurance, workmans Comp, unemployment insurance, safety updates, licences, EPA certification, and on and on and on....

Some of my competition, not so much......

And you know what? Most people could give a rats pituti. They just want cheap. I'm just too afraid of the government and our court system to bend the rules, so I make less. Thats just life.

I'm sure Grizzley had to look at this and make the same kind of decision for their company. They made their choice, and you make yours. It should be noted I agree, but I have never looked at my SCM or MiniMax stuff either.

On the other hand it would be comforting to know that a tool that is sold on "Cheap" has passed some sort of independant inspection.

Larry

[Don Wacker]

Id like to know what sort of electrical inspector has the authority to question a non nec issue. What is hp and how is the machine in question connected to the power source?Don

[Dave Lehnert]

Would be an easy thing to overlook when buying but if it is a big issue for insurance I would hope one would have taken the time to check up on it before the purchase. I think the "Lie by omission" statement is a little strong. One could list a whole host of things they do not list. for example, Is the paint lead based? They don't say. But don't think you could say it is because of the omission.

[Rod Sheridan]

In Ontario, ESA (Electrical Safety Authority) has the authority to seize or confiscate unapproved electrical equipment.

It is an offence to sell or use unapproved equipment in Ontario.

The two Hammer machines I purchased were modified by Felder at the dealer to meet Canadian electrical codes, and certified prior to delivery to me. The cost was $250 per machine, which was very reasonable.

In my work I often have to modify and have certified American made equipment, to meet the Canadian requirements. In some cases the equipment is UL certified, in some cases it has no certification.

It is also an offence to connect power to uncertified equipment according to Canadian Electrical Code. Part 2.

Regards, Rod.

[Peter Quinn]

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/perspectives/newtoul/ulmarkproductcertification/

Here's the basic procedure detailed by the UL folks for certification. In writing. I can see why a company would want to avoid that expense. Of course it is rigorous and gives manufactures an incentive to thoroughly test their own products prior to application. So OSHA requires UL certifications, if you hire people to work for you you fall under the domain of OSHA. This means only Ul listed products are professional grade? I guess you get what you pay for? Who certifies the UL?

[Thad McCulloch]

You must be from Europe where CE certification is necessary to sell many things to the general public. Not much of an issue in the US. If your insurance company is making a big deal out of it, maybe think about changing to a different insurance company???

[fRED mCnEILL]

"The reason for the post and my anger at Grizzly is not so much that their machine are not all certified, it is that they do not note that anywhere that I can find on the particular units I bought. The tech guy said they note it on the machines that are certified but do not note the machines that are not."

To me its quite simple. If it has a UL or CSA stick it is covered under those certifications. If no sticker, no certification.

[Rick Fisher]

I actually sell some machinery in Canada and have run into this exact thing more than once.

In Canada, you need CSA, ULc ( not UL ) or private inspection..

In the USA you can sell machinery and carry liability insurance .. its more of a " free " thing. You screw up, you get sued.

CSA or ULc is usually done in Tawian and China, its less common with commodity machinery to have inspections done in North America. Companies like Tru-Pro or OAV in Taiwan will be licensed to put the CSA or ULc label on the machinery and are subject to inspection at any time. You simply order it CSA or not .. UL or not .. Some machinery is already CSA and that is the way it comes.. The baby feeder that everyone sells is CSA already.. Grizzly, General, Delta or whomever buy it in their color and trim but its CSA by default..
If you scroll through a Tawianese tool mfg offerings, some will be listed as CSA and others will not .. If the buyer wants one CSA, they arrange for the upgrades..

There are private companies in each province that can issue a sticker for a singular piece of machinery brought into Canada, on the West Coast.. Sigh.. cant remember the name, but they put a blue sticker on the machine with a serial number that is specific to the machine.. That way the sticker cannot be moved to a new machine.

When Powermatic decided to come to Canada, they started buying CSA machinery in Taiwan, meaning that the factories in Taiwan where largely already providing it to Gerneral, but it is more expensive.. There are changes which in some cases need to be made, Mag starters need a wiring diagram printed on the inside of the cap, stop buttons must lock and need to be turned to be released.. There is a long list of requirements.

Companies like Maggi, Felder, Griggio, etc...etc..etc.. are all shipped to Canada and inspected by a private company that approves them..

If you imported machinery to Canada from a non-CSA source, or non-ULc source, you need to get it inspected and approved. Its not uncommon to have to make changes to the machine and have it inspected again.. If you have non-CSA machinery in your shop and have a fire, Canadian insurance adjusters will be all over it .. finding one or two machines, even if they didn't start the fire, will prove you had " unsafe and illegal " machinery in the shop and your insurance will go legal.

End of the day, its not the responsibility of the seller in Asia or the USA. They make stuff, you buy it .. they ship it.. what you do with it is your affair .. If you live in Canada, you are the responsible party..

Been there, done that .. :(

[Greg Peterson]

Who certifies the UL?

From the first paragraph on the link you provided:

About UL Mark Product Certification
The following information pertains to UL product certification programs accredited by the U.S. Occupational Safety & Health Administration (OSHA), the American National Standards Institute (ANSI), and the Standards Council of Canada (SCC).

[Derek Gilmer]

You are responsible for knowing the laws and codes for where you live. It is similiar to gun laws in the US. Some states allow short barreled rifles and/or silencers with the proper documentation. Other states do not allow it even with the federal tax stamp and paperwork done. I can't buy a silencer for my ar15, then drive to Michigan were they aren't allowed and accuse Noveske or AAC for not warning me I couldn't take the rifle there.

[David Castor]

The UL listing issue in the US is complicated. There is no legal requirement to have UL certification to sell a product. However, most large retail companies would not sell a power tool that was not UL listed (if other similar products have UL label). Grizzly is selling direct so that is not an issue for them. For electrical equipment, such as panelboards, circuit breakers, light fixtures, etc, electrical inspectors will require some type of third-party certification (does not have to be UL in most places).

When electrical equipment is sold to contractors, non-UL equipment is generally clearly stated as "NON-UL" due to the likely problems during inspection after installation. Some specialty items do not carry UL labels, because no one wanted to pay to have that type of product certified.

For a new category of product, the UL certification process can be time-consuming and expensive. If it is type of product where a certification category already exists, there are still costs, but not as great.

My personal opinion is that Grizzly would serve its customers better by noting equipment that is not UL labeled, but I doubt that they have any legal obligation to do so.

[Matt Meiser]

Looks like Jet is in on it too. Neither my jointer/planer or spindle sander carry the markings and Jet doesn't disclose it either.

[Don Wacker]

I think if the US required it I think they would have it. Canada is more likely not their target market. Even Powermatic is hit and miss as to what has been certified. A quick walk around my shop and only a few carry the mark and their doesnt seem to be any rhyme or reason as to why.

20" planer / certified
Drill press / certified
Double drum sander /certified
Tablesaw / not
Shaper /certified
Powerfeed / no sticker assume not
12" jointer / not
24" bandsaw /not

All the 5hp stuff is certified but that is required at least by local code.

Don

[Cary Falk]

Looks like Jet is in on it too. Neither my jointer/planer or spindle sander carry the markings and Jet doesn't disclose it either.

Add my Steel City stuff to that list as unmarked.

[Dan Hintz]

Looks like Jet is in on it too. Neither my jointer/planer or spindle sander carry the markings and Jet doesn't disclose it either.
I never looked... wonder if the VFDs on this stuff is certified...

[Peter Aeschliman]

I'll go as far to guess that any Chinese-manufactured tool won't be UL certified (operative word is "guess"). I think it's a "get what you pay for" situation. It costs manufacturers money to go through that process. If consumers demand low prices, manufacturers will find any legal way they can to cut costs so that they can make money selling low-priced tools. Supply and Demand baby!

[Derek Gilmer]

I'll go as far to guess that any Chinese-manufactured tool won't be UL certified (operative word is "guess"). I think it's a "get what you pay for" situation. It costs manufacturers money to go through that process. If consumers demand low prices, manufacturers will find any legal way they can to cut costs so that they can make money selling low-priced tools. Supply and Demand baby!

Nah, lots of small electric items made in China are ul certified.

[Matt Meiser]

Nah, lots of small electric items made in China are ul certified.

Or at least have the UL logo: http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/corporate/newsroom/publicnotices/

[Derek Gilmer]

Or at least have the UL logo: http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/corporate/newsroom/publicnotices/

Lol, gotta love that.

[Chris Kowalski]

I have 4 General International machines and they all have CSA stickers. I'm pretty sure all General and GI stuff is CSA certified, since they target pro shops in Canada where having the certification is important.

[Jim Neeley]

Hey folks:

In the U.S., UL is one of the OSHA approved NRTLs (Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories). Someone asked who watches the UL. The answer (for US ratings) is OSHA. If you cannot meet their requirements, you lose your NRTL rating and yyour work is no longer recognized in the US.

Here's an extract from OSHA's web site on NRTL FAQs:

OSHA Safety Standards, which are US law, contain requirements for "approval" (i.e., testing and certification) of certain products by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL). These Safety Standards are found in Title 29 of the Code of Federal Regulations (29 CFR), and the provisions for NRTL certification are generally in Part 1910 (29 CFR Part 1910). See Specific References to OSHA Standards Requiring NRTL Approval (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/dts/otpca/nrtl/1910refs.html) for the provisions in Part 1910. The requirements help protect workers by ensuring products are designed for safe use in the workplace. An NRTL generally certifies products for a manufacturer.

If you want to read more than you probably care to know, their full FAQ is here: https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/faq_nrtl.html

That's just a synopsis of all of the testing lab requirements and responsibilities from their site.

Anybody without a headache now? <g>

Jim

[Art Mann]

The way I see it, UL certification is like anti-lock brakes. If a vehicle has that feature then the manufacturer will advertise it. If not, then they won't. I do not expect manufacturers to warn consumers of the lack of this feature and I think it silly to expect them to do so. It is up to the consumer to decide whether the extra cost is worth it and it is the responsibility of the consumer to determine whether a prospective vehicle has it.

[Chris Rosenberger]

I have been woodworking for over 40 years. I have never looked to see if a tool had a UL sticker before I bought it.
I learned many years ago, that all it takes for a company to get a UL sticker is lots of money. Most times that money has to go under the table.

I have to have my shop fire extinguishers checked every year. I pay $25 each for a person to come into my shop & cut the old tags off & put new tags on.
They do nothing else.

How does changing the tag prove the fire extinguisher will work & how does a UL stcker prove that a tool is safe?

[Richard Wagner]

I am a bit confused by the information provided in this thread. It has become clear to me that these safety certifications (UL, etc) are not a legal requirement but rather an insurance issue. In fact, I would interpret it as an insurance rip off; just another justification for the insurance companies to demand greater rates. If I purchase a table saw that has not been certified by say UL or its Canadian equivalent, is there information that tells me what there is about that table saw that makes it certifiable. If it is the existemce of uncertied switches and I change all of the switches to UL certified - will the insurance company back off? I doubt it.

OK - I through venting.

[Erik Loza]

The CSA-thing must be more significant than the UL-thing, because I can order a machine from the factory with CSA-compliant electrics, but not UL. There is no European-made machine I am aware of that offers "UL Conformity",whatever that might actually consist of. "CSA approved" is an actual option, though.

Not sure how it is for other mfrs. in the industry but to Jim's point and because we sell to so many commercial shops and government institutions, OSHA compliance is the most important factor. For example, there is a jointer guard which is approved for use in Europe under their (pretty stringent) "BG" certification system, yet is not OSHA approved due to how it works. I am not allowed to ship out any machine with that guard. It has to be the American-style porkchop in order to be OSHA-compliant. Once, I asked one of the corporate guys why this was the case, since several competitors in the industry sold US jointer and jointer/planers with the Euro-style guard. His reply was, "Probably because they haven't been sued yet".

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Art Mann]

I used to work for a company that designed and built body electrical test equipment for the automotive industry. We built and installed many millions of dollars worth of equipment for both the US and Canada and none of it was UL or CSA certified. This was one-off purpose built equipment and the cost of certification for a single piece would have been prohibitive. OSHA may require some equipment to be UL rated but I am certain that they don't require all equipment to be rated.

[Michael W. Clark]

I used to work for a company that designed and built body electrical test equipment for the automotive industry. We built and installed many millions of dollars worth of equipment for both the US and Canada and none of it was UL or CSA certified. This was one-off purpose built equipment and the cost of certification for a single piece would have been prohibitive. OSHA may require some equipment to be UL rated but I am certain that they don't require all equipment to be rated.

Similar situation here Art. We do custom engineered equipment, severe and some lethal service applications, everything is a one off. Some of our components (buyout commodity items) are likely UL certified. It would not be feasible to ship all of our equipment completely assembled to the UL front door for certification. They would likely not have the means to test it in the first place, nor have the expertise to know if it conforms or not.

Mike

[Dan Hintz]

I am a bit confused by the information provided in this thread. It has become clear to me that these safety certifications (UL, etc) are not a legal requirement but rather an insurance issue. In fact, I would interpret it as an insurance rip off; just another justification for the insurance companies to demand greater rates. If I purchase a table saw that has not been certified by say UL or its Canadian equivalent, is there information that tells me what there is about that table saw that makes it certifiable. If it is the existemce of uncertied switches and I change all of the switches to UL certified - will the insurance company back off? I doubt it.

I think you misunderstand what the certification is and what it's used for. A UL cert is for a specific piece of equipment (e.g., the switch, the power supply, the motor, etc.). It is not for the entire table saw, just for the components that were tested. The cert shows that a switch has the correct air gap length, the proper insulator, will not continue to burn if subjected to a high-voltage arc, etc.

And yes, you can look up information on any item by going to UL's website (though other cert sites, such as EL, should have identical lookups). Type in the UL cert # and it returns the information associated with that specific item.

And the UL cert helps the manufacturer in insurance cases... they can point to the cert as them having done their due diligence should a problem arise. The UL cert is not there to help the buyer in case of an issue (like fire or electrocution).

[Howard Acheson]

I have never had a problem with UL or no UL with my insurance company. They do like to see that the motors above 3hp are UL but not the entire machine. Even the motors that are not UL have not excluded me from any coverages.

Don

At one time back in the '90's Jet stationary tools did not carry the UL or CSA label. Our insurance carrier came in for one of there periodic inspections and disallowed our Jet table saw and bandsaw. Luckily, the table saw was a spare. Our primary saw was a Delta Unisaw.

[Art Mann]

Sounds like you need to go shopping for a new insurance company.

[Jim Neeley]

Dan,

Please do not take this as a personal affront, Dan, but you have inadvertantly misspoken.

I agree wholeheartedly that components are frequently UL (or FM or CSA-us or other NRTL [Nationally Recognized Testing Lab]) certified however assemblies can be certified as well. I oversee the specification of instrumentation equipment and it is generally NRTL certified (it must be or we don't use it).

Level switches with electronic transmitters, flow meters, pressure transmitters, heck even Intrinsically Safe phones and cameras must be certified by UL to be used in a hazardous (i.e. potentially explosive) environment. Additionally, I commonly purchase or design control panels or machines which are either manufacturer certified or (if engineered by me using listed components and assembled in a listed panel shop) 508 or 698 certified.

Jim in Alaska

[Dan Hintz]

I agree wholeheartedly that components are frequently UL (or FM or CSA-us or other NRTL [Nationally Recognized Testing Lab]) certified however assemblies can be certified as well.

Jim,

I wasn't saying that entire pieces cannot be cert'ed, I was simply saying just because a switch has a UL cert attached to it doesn't mean the entire machine is cert'ed. I'm not aware of any tablesaw that is completely cert'ed by UL (though I'm not exactly looking for one, either). The cert imprinted on switch covers is typically the switch or electrical subsystem's cert, not the entire unit's.


A UL cert is for a specific piece of equipment (e.g., the switch, the power supply, the motor, etc.). It is not for the entire table saw, just for the components that were tested.

[Rick Fisher]

In the case of CSA.. The switch will carry a CSA sticker but the machinery tag, installed on the body of the machine will also need a tag.. The alternative is a sticker from an inspection service .. That is very common ...

In Canada, you need UL(c) or Csa .. or a sticker by Ontario, Quebec, BC hydro or any number of private inspection companies..

CSA is most likely going to be tagged at the factory .. Many big factories are able to tag their own products Csa or ULC .. but are subject to fees and random inspections ..

You can get an inspector to come and inspect your tools which are non-compliant and sticker them for a fee, so long as they comply .. If they don't comply, you may be changing electronics, wire or whatever, and paying for another inspection..

In this case, its not Grizzly's fault .. I have a buddy who paid $200 to have a Shop Fox 5hp collector inspected and planned to do it the whole time .. No big deal. It passed and he has a sticker ..

Grizzly isn't Canadian.. we are Canadian.. its our problem.

[Simon Hodson]

Hi Folks

Bumped into this thread while looking for something else but saw the confusion and though I'd offer my thoughts.

I'm an electrical inspector working for a certification agency certifying products to UL & CSA standards

If anyone has questions about what the current situation is regarding certified equipment is as well as what your options are depending on what country you are in please feel free to ask.
I'll do what I can to clear up the situation.

A short bit on the problem:
Because this is the age of the internet and any company that can run a credit card can sell something; there are many companies out there selling unapproved equipment.
Also there are manufacturer's who only get approvals for their home country. (i.e. US company, no Canadian approvals, etc.)
Regardless this is a common problem and is likely only going to get worse.
I highly recommend checking as much as you can to get approved equipment however it does happen.

Once you end up with an unapproved product you have options depending on the region you are in.

Canada:
If you are in Canada it is simple. Canada has a specific standard called SPE-1000 (AKA Special Inspection or Blue Label) which is for the acceptance of equipment for use in Canada.
This doesn't mean you are certified, this means that that specific product is accepted to be connected to the grid.
Basically this standard is designed for this specific problem, it's fairly cheap when compared to full certification.

USA:
In the US it's a little more complicated and about 10X as expensive.
Many certification agencies there do what is called a Field Evaluation, it is an abbreviated certification process for a small number of a particular product.
It takes longer that the Canadian process and therefore costs more but does exist and is cheaper than full certification which would be far too costly.

I hope this helps

If you have any questions feel free to ask, I'll try and check on this for a while.