Plane confusion

[Bobby O'Neal]

I'm a little fuzzy on this. No. 5 and No. 6, jack and fore plane. Which is which? Regional names?

[John McPhail]

#5 is jack, #6 is fore.

I'm not sure where the names come from.

[Bobby O'Neal]

Beyond the differences in size, are they functionally much different? I guess I always thought they were used in a similar manner.

[bob blakeborough]

I believe "Jack" is named for being a "jack of all trades" as in useful for multiple applications, and the "Fore" was named because it was intended to be the first plane used, as in hogging away a lot of material and initial flattening...

[Mike Holbrook]

I ran a thread that answers this question and the next one or two you will run up against too. I think you will find that what people use various planes for varies. The fore plane #6 may be the most controversial plane size, in terms of what it should/can/ought to be/ is best at....Some use the fore plane as a sort of shorter jointer and some use it more like a scrub. There are also quite a few uses for the Jack (like jack of all trades) plane, especially when you start looking at the very popular bevel up jack planes and fore planes made by Lee Valley & Lie-Nielsen. I don't think there is a correct answer to your post, only an understanding of how the various tools can be employed to do specific work.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?160120-Fore-Plane-for-coarse-work&highlight=

[Mike Siemsen]

When preparing stock the fore plane is used "before" the others, typically a plane of about 14 inches in length. A try plane is then used to put the material in "truth" that is flat, or all in one plane. This is typically long plane. Then the smoother is employed to smooth the surface so it is smooth and ready for finish. Smaller boards smaller planes, bigger boards bigger planes.

[Prashun Patel]

I think what more distinguishes a #6 from it's neighbors is the curve of the blade. That's what makes it appropriate for rapid stock removal for initial flattening.

In theory, you could put the same kind of blade on a #5 for a lighter 'fore'.

[Jim Koepke]

Bobby,

Don't worry about the correct name for the correct plane.

All planes have on thing in common. They are all holders for a blade to shave wood.

Once you get the fundamentals and sharp blades going for you, you will gain a feel for what plane to use for the job at hand. Then it will not matter if it is a jack or fore plane. What will matter is that it takes care of the surface in the way you want it done.

jtk

[Greg Wease]

I once knew a guy who raised oxen. I asked him "what breed is an ox?" His reply: "ox is a career, not a breed. Cattle who pull loads are oxen." That is the way I look at hand planes--the names are attached to function more than specific model numbers or sizes. Unlike some, I like the 18" #6 size plane. In my shop, equipped with a cambered blade, it functions as a Jack plane for coarser work. (By the way, "Jack" was originally used to describe planes for rough work--the jackass of bench planes. "Jack of all trades" is a modern designation.) When I carry a #6 to school I use it as a Jointer using a straight blade with rounded corners. Why? because it fits into my 18" tool tote and the #7 or #8, which I use at home for jointing, won't.

Here are some definitions from my Grandfather's favorite (only?) woodworking book, Audel's Carpenters and Builders Guide, 1923:

"Jack Plane.--As its name implies, this plane is intended for heavy rough work. It is the first plane used in preparing stuff, its purpose being to remove irregularities left by the saw and to produce a fairly smooth surface. It is long and heavy enough to make it a powerful tool so that it will remove considerable chip on each cut....If properly sharpened the jack plane may be used as a smooth plane, or as a jointer on small work, as it is capable of doing as good work as any plane.

Fore Plane.--This plane is for the same purpose as the trying or jointer plane, that is, to straighten and smooth the rather rough and irregular cut of the jack plane. Owing to the fact that the fore plane is shorter than the jointer, it is easier to handle, especially for a journeyman carpenter. It may be used also as a jack plane. Where a carpenter has not both a jack and a jointer he can make a fore plane serve for both although it will not give as good service as either of the other two in the work for which they are adapted. [Another "jack of all trades"?]

Trying and Jointer Planes.--The great length and weight of these planes keep the cutter from tearing the wood and with the cutter set fine it is the plane for obtaining the smoothest finishes. These planes will true up better than other types of planes, two wood surfaces that are to be brought together where a very close fit is required [that is, jointed edges]. A trying plane is simply a small jointer. In this country the word jointer is applied to both planes--that is all sizes from 22 to 30 ins. The term trying plane is used in England. The choice between a trying or jointer plane depends on the degree of precision required in bringing a surface to a true plane."

Lengths of these planes is depicted as"

Jointer: 28 to 30 in.
Trying: 22 to 24 in.
Fore: 18 in.
Jack: 14 to 16 in.
Smooth: 5 1/2 to 12 in.

Hope this helps.

[Bobby O'Neal]

Well I feel like I have a good enough understanding at this point. I am fairly new to the craft as a whole (2 years). So I am not particularly well versed or loyal to either camp, be it power or hand tool. The only planes I own are a cheap block, a LN scrub and a Woodriver no. 5. I use them to prep stock before sending it through the power planer. I'd love to have a smoother and jointer down the road, but will go for a powered jointed before that.

[glenn bradley]

Bobby, Don't worry about the correct name for the correct plane. All planes have on thing in common. They are all holders for a blade to shave wood. Once you get the fundamentals and sharp blades going for you, you will gain a feel for what plane to use for the job at hand. Then it will not matter if it is a jack or fore plane. What will matter is that it takes care of the surface in the way you want it done.

Spoken as a man who has had enough experience to know. Thank you Jim for once again speaking clearly to a subject that seems to foster obfuscation through minutiae.

P.s. Could you please do the same for discussions on Dust Collection and Saw Stops :D:D:D

[Jim Koepke]

P.s. Could you please do the same for discussions on Dust Collection and Saw Stops

Well, all the stuff my wife keeps on shelves takes care of the dust collecting around here.

Only one of my saws really has a stop on it. That would be my Bishop #10. I have it set so it cuts down to the correct depth for dovetails in 3/4 stock and stops.

211827

This is a picture of how it looked when it first cam home with me. Not really much different than it looks today after sharpening and a little cleaning.

jtk

EDIT:

Actually my dust collector is a broom and pan. I do not plan on having a table saw. I like the idea of a saw stop, but wonder about false triggering.

[Tom Vanzant]

False triggering of a SawStop is sort of like false triggering of an airbag.... not cheap to replace and the manufacturer can seldom if ever be found at fault.

[Trevor Walsh]

I've used on (sawstop) a fair amount and seen it in use in the Philadelphia Furniture Workshop. Personally I've never seen it fire amid two 60 some odd hours of work there, I believe they have had only two or three fires in about as many years? Something like that.

[Ron Kellison]

Spoken as a man who has had enough experience to know. Thank you Jim for once again speaking clearly to a subject that seems to foster obfuscation through minutiae.

P.s. Could you please do the same for discussions on Dust Collection and Saw Stops :D:D:D

While you're at it, a succinct dissertation on sharpening, pins or tails first and the relative merits of O1, A2 and M1 would also be appreciated. :)

Regards,

Ron

[Zach Dillinger]

To throw further confusion into the mix, don't forget the woodies. My favorite woodie jack / fore plane is 16", my try plane is 22" and my jointer is 26", and none of these sizes apply to the Stanley numbering system.

I really think that the name of the plane doesn't matter. The plane that has the proper camber and is roughly the right length for the job, and the one that won't tire you out in 2 minutes would be the plane to use, regardless of the name. I prefer slightly longer planes at all stages of my stock prep (excluding smoothing), as it helps me get flatter faster, so my wooden planes are the right fit for me. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Z

[David Keller NC]

Well I feel like I have a good enough understanding at this point. I am fairly new to the craft as a whole (2 years). So I am not particularly well versed or loyal to either camp, be it power or hand tool. The only planes I own are a cheap block, a LN scrub and a Woodriver no. 5. I use them to prep stock before sending it through the power planer. I'd love to have a smoother and jointer down the road, but will go for a powered jointed before that.

Bobby - One comment about the powered jointer. I own and use many handplanes, but also have a table saw, planer, powered jointer, router table, bandsaw and dust collector. In other words, most of the powered accoutrements that one typically sees in home workshops.

I think that you will find a powered jointer to be a bit of a dissappointment unless you're willing to spend a LOT of money on a 16" wide Oliver and a power feeder.

I have a DJ-20 (an 8" wide Delta stationary jointer for those that are dedicated Neanders ;)). It seldom gets used these days unless I'm processing a lot of wood for a carpentry project (as opposed to cabinet making). The simple reason is that it's only 8" wide, and I make colonial reproductions. Nothing looks worse on a colonial reproduction than all of the wide panels glued up from 8" wide or less stock, and it's pretty easy to find and buy stock up to 20" wide, depending on species.

Ripping such stock into widths that I could process entirely on the powered jointer/planer and then gluing it back into a panel would be highly embarrassing and is not an acceptable practice.

The vast majority of the time I 4-square lumber with handplanes only, because it is the most appropriate method for what I'm building. However, if I choose to blend handtool work with powered machinery, the solution to the absence of an aircraft-carrier-wide jointer is to true one face of the plank with handplanes, and then run it through the planer.

Given that, the 8" jointer then is only really useful for truing edges, and a handplane accomplishes that with ease and speed. Ergo, not much use for a powered jointer.

[Mike Holbrook]

I am with Zach on the wooden planes. I am making four. My Jack is 15.5" at the moment, my smoothers are 7.5" and my jointer is 26". I also have a 17" (Fore) plane from Blum Tools. Like Zach mine are all a little longer than conventional lengths. My Jack will be my plane for coarse work. My Fore plane is set up to come behind the Jack, medium. The jointer and Smoothers will be more my fine planes. Chris Schwarz does a DVD called Coarse, Medium & Fine in which he discusses working with woods in those terms, much of it relating to planes. It might get you thinking more in terms of the work process and less in terms of manufactures often confusing numbering systems.

I am about to buy a router plane which will be metal. The need for multiple adjustments & blade options is most easily accomplished with machined mechanical parts in this case. So maybe with some specialty planes the features available in metal versions may sway me away from wood.