Holdfasts

[Mike Holbrook]

I am interested in buying a couple of these but the holes in my bench are rectangular ( a little less than 3/4" wide & about 1" long ). I can't find anything on Holdfasts & rectangular bench holes and thought I would see if anyone here has knowledge of the subject? The bench is a small Hofmann & Hammer, 3 1/2" thick where the holes are. The row of previously mortised holes extends the length of the table and they are spaced relatively close together, giving me reason to pause before drilling round holes.

[Roger Myers]

Mike,
I can't see any way that a holdfast is going to work in a rectangular hole.
I use the Grammercy holdfasts in my smaller bench and they work great in a 3/4" round hole.
Today's project is adding some round holes to my large bench so I can use them there as well, as it only has rectangular dog holes.
I'm just making two additional rows of holes, spaced somewhere between 6 and 12" apart.... No need for them to be in the same line as the rectangular holes.... As they will not be used with the tail vise, just with the holdfasts....

You should have no problem adding some holes.... I will use a 3/4 spiral up cut bit in a router to drill the first couple of inches, then I will follow with a bit and brace to drill through the bench.

Roger

[Bob Lang]

The square holes in your bench are for dogs used in conjunction with the tail vise. A holdfast might work in one of them, but you'll probably want to place them further away from the front of the bench. In all likelihood, you will only need a couple of holes for holdfasts. No need to Uzi up the bench top.

Bob Lang

[Ben Beckham]

The square dog holes aren't really inconsistent with holdfast usage in my opinion. The holdfasts are usually used in 3/4" holes spaced strategically around the bench, further from the edge. Since the holdfast generally has about a 6" reach, you can have a few overlapping 6" radius circles on your bench to cover most anything you'll need to do. The Schwartz workbench book covers that layout if I remember correctly.

Of course, my benchtop is 4.5" of MDF with round dog holes, so I've never actually had the problem.

[Jim Koepke]

Holdfasts work by jamming into a hole. I have not tried them in square holes, but they should work. The problem is that holdfasts can distort the shape of a hole. A round hole will allow the holdfast to work all 360º around the hole. With a square hole the area of effective holding may be limited.

My problem is my bench top is a bit thin and the holdfasts can cause the wood to split. That is a good enough reason for me to build a new bench.

Besides having enough wood to avoid splitting, there shouldn't be anything under where the holdfasts will be used to impede their use.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for the replies.
A little further information about my bench. The outside edge is only 3" wide x 3 1/2 thick, with the dog holes 4.5 inches apart (center to center). Yes the dog holes are made to work with a tail vise (well actually a regular wood vise also with a dog hole in it). The other side of the bench has a tool well in it. There is about 10" in the center of the bench that is 1 1/2" thick hard wood. If I am understanding correctly, I might consider drilling a few holes in the center section of the bench for 3/4" Holdfasts? I believe there were posters on Tools for Working Wood who stated that the Gramercy Holdfasts work in 1 1/2" tops. I don't think the existing dog holes will work with the Holdfasts as they are actually a little under 3/4" wide. I guess I could enlarge the holes but then the very nice dogs that came with the bench might not work.

[Jim Koepke]

I believe there were posters on Tools for Working Wood who stated that the Gramercy Holdfasts work in 1 1/2" tops. I don't think the existing dog holes will work with the Holdfasts as they are actually a little under 3/4" wide.

How much under 3/4"?

My holes are cut to the European 18 mm and are a bit tight with some 3/4" implements. My holdfasts have a shaft of about 5/8". If the shaft is right at 3/4", it wouldn't work in a same size hole.

My advice is to try the holdfasts before enlarging any holes.

My opinion is that 1-1/2" top is about as thin as one would want to go for using holdfasts. I would even consider gluing a strip under the area where the holes are to be drilled just to add some strength.

jtk

[Bob Lang]

Inch and a half will likely work with the Gramercy holdfasts. If they don't all you would need to do would be stick a couple of pieces of scrap to the bottom of the bench at each hole, drill through the scrap from the existing hole and get to work. I would add a hole or two at a time rather than trying to figure out the perfect pattern beforehand.

Bob Lang

[Augusto Orosco]

Inch and a half will likely work with the Gramercy holdfasts. If they don't all you would need to do would be stick a couple of pieces of scrap to the bottom of the bench at each hole, drill through the scrap from the existing hole and get to work. I would add a hole or two at a time rather than trying to figure out the perfect pattern beforehand.

Bob Lang

I would only add what I heard from Bob Rozaieski in one of his cool podcasts. He built a Nicholson's style workbench and found that he needed extra thickness for his holdfasts. He did as Bob L. suggested, but found out that the scraps eventually unglued due to the force exerted by the holdfast. Perhaps Bob R. will chime in and offer his input, since I believe he was thinking on a better way to fix that.

[Mike Holbrook]

My dog holes are a full 1/16 short of 3/4". It occurred to me that I might cut a piece of MDF or plywood to fit exactly between the two 3.5" sides of the top. Wedged between the two taller sides with maybe a few screws where they would not be in the way, a Holdfast would have to pry one of the 3.5" sides off to move the added sheet material. Jim makes a good point I might just need to build a new bench. I had been using my Festool table for quite a few things and was thinking about extending that work surface. Then there are those cool benches guys use to work with draw knives, spokeshaves....Lately I have been more about the hand tools, so I have been trying to figure out where my projects and interests run before figuring out what bench(s) to improve on or build.

[Mark Engel]

Some user testing information can be gleaned from this thread from NCWW:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40730&highlight=holdfasts

[Ryan Mooney]

Another question is if your square holes are beveled, if they are I'd be more disinclined to use a holdfast in them for fear of distortion.


Hmm - wild engineering speculation to follow:

If you were so inclined I bet you could make a square swiveling holdfast. Disclaimer that I've never tried, nor seen this design so this might be a bunch of work for nothing :D

Idea:

Square steel bar stock roughly the size of the dog holes cut into ~8-12" lengths
Drill and tap a hole in one end
Cut a piece of rectangular steel bar stock (wide dimension same as square stock, narrow dimension maybe 1/4") about 4-6" long
heat the rectangular stock and bend it into an open S (over->down->over)
drill a hole in the "top" end the size of a shoulder bolt that fits the hole you drilled and tapped in the square stock

Attach the rectangular piece to the square stock with the shoulder bolt, this allows the top to swivel.

I've attached a very rough sketch of what I'm thinking of here.

211805

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

Check out the following - a user tests gramercy holdfasts in 3/4" square holes. It looks like they worked fine, but I didn't read it that carefully. They go into other holdfasts and hole depth issues.
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40730

Also
http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/workshop/square-dog-holesaccommodate-hold-fast

And here is what I was actually trying to find again, having recalled seeing it recently:
http://dans-woodshop.blogspot.com/2008/11/poor-mans-holdfasts.html

I think the nut on the bottom makes it a far cry from the convenience of a real holdfast, but you could instead try this: have the vertical portion be a rectangular bar that is larger in one dimension at the bottom, like a very stunted "L", such that it can catch under the bench after dropping down your rectangular bench hole. Then drop in a little wedge to keep it locked. More convenient that the wingnut shown. You'd have to use some metal L brackets or otherwise overcome the problem of short grain on the bottom of the L. If that doesn't make sense and you actually care I'll clarify what I mean.

Just some thoughts.

[Roger Myers]

Mike,
Lots of good info in the replys, but frankly, don't over think this. It's a bench, designed to be used. Drill some 3/4" holes in convenient locations ( as Bob L. said, you really don't need that many). A bit and brace, a power drill, a router with a 3/4" bit....whatever means you choose, drill some holes and start enjoying the usefulness of the holdfasts.
They are designed to work in round holes...why mess up your regular dog holes for the sake of saving drilling a few holes.
The thickness you have should be fine...If you find the holdfasts are slipping, rough them up a bit on the shank with a file and try again...If they are still slipping, then you can think about adding thickness, but I would be surprised if you need to.
The beauty in the holdfast is it's simplicity in use....
Roger

[Mike Holbrook]

Roger Roger,

It should not be a big deal to make new holes and I am confident there will be a way to get a set of Gramercy's working in the 1 1/2" thick section of my bench even if it takes a little work. I think we got an answer on the basic question in the link to the Fine Wood Working post above, apparently Derek Cohen is using Gramercy Holdfasts in square holes. Derek or someone even thought they worked better in square holes although the thickness of the bench also comes into play.

One of my reasons to make the post was actually to see if a good many posters found Holdfasts useful and it appears they do. Interesting how many are using the Gramercy Holdfasts, which are the ones I have been looking at. It was also interesting to read that quite a few people have two Gramercy's and one of the LV Holdfasts, which is the other one I was thinking about. Schwarz cautions against using the cast iron ones and I did find posts where people had them break.

The other reason for the post was to start a little research on benches. I am giving serious consideration to either building my own or rebuilding/altering the one I have. I was impressed with how well the Holdfasts worked for Schwarz in his DVD The Workbench, How to Design or Modify a Bench for Efficient Use. Now that I am becoming enamored of the hand tools I think a more conventional workbench or workbenches becomes more important. I have been waiting on a Bow Saw (kit?) from Wood Joy for a good while and I am getting very interested in the Half-Back Saw Lee Valley sells. I see more hand sawing in my future and have come to realize that how one holds the work is a major piece in the puzzle that I have been ignoring. The plans for a traditional "Sawbench" as opposed to Sawhorses in Hand Tool Essentials just happens to have a Holdfast hole in it and what I believe is the LV Half-Back saw laying on top of it. I am getting a little off topic now so I will probably start a new post regarding: benches, sawbenches, carving benches....I am interested in how many of what types of these devices hand tool users find helpful. I am finding that hand tool users may need multiple benchs, sawbenchs, jigs to help hold pieces for specific hand tool work.

[john brenton]

The gramercy holdfasts are awesome, and the price is incredible. If you look on traditional benches you'll see the row of square dog holes, with a couple round holes for the holdfasts. If you plan it right all you really need are two holdfast holes to start, then you can make others as your work dictates. Your holes really do have to be as close to 90 degrees to your workbench though. Even with a 3" thick bench its fairly critical. With a 1.5" thick bench i imagine its easy to make a worthless hole.

[Jim Koepke]

One of my reasons to make the post was actually to see if a good many posters found Holdfasts useful and it appears they do.

Now that I have a pair, they are used often. They are so versatile, they hold and they are fast. How they came up with the name for them is a mystery. :D

One thing to consider, their holding power is directly related to how much stress they impose on the edges of any hole in which they are being used.

One of the wonderful features of this Creek is discussions like this make me think about the bench being planned for my shop.

Now if there is just a way that all 27 of those vises I like can get into my shop and on the bench... Of course, then there wouldn't be any place for anything else.

jtk

[glenn bradley]

Cut the fixed head off of some cheap HF clamps and added a toggle. Problem solved for any hole that will accept a 3/4" object.

[Mike Holbrook]

Glenn where did those HF Clamps come from? I like those handles and and the covered clamping surface.

[Bob Lang]

Holdfasts vs. Hold-down clamps. There is an incredible difference in ease of use. Good holdfasts are so quick and easy to use in comparison to anything that requires twisting of a handle to set, that they are game changers. I wrote the article in "Woodworking" magazine a few years ago that reviewed what was available at the time. The article was published before the Gramercy holdfasts were introduced. Had the Gramercy's been included, they would have been clear winners for the consistent way they work and the value they represent. The next best thing would be hand-forged holdfasts from someone who has experience making them, very effective but several times the price of Joel's.

The other acceptable option is the small Jorgensen. These work pretty well, and aren't expensive. They are not the same as the look-alikes that will break the first time they are hit with authority. Not quite as easy to use as the Gramercy, but their smaller footprint comes in handy sometimes. I've been using a pair of the Jorgensen's since the test, and I've also been using a pair of the Gramercy's since they became available. I stuck a thick leather pad on the bottom of all of mine and I don't have to worry about marring a piece of wood.

I can't think of an easier, faster or more reliable way to hold work than holdfasts. Ironically, one of the best uses is to hold a piece of wood down to the bench with the edge hanging over so I can make a cut with a router.

Bob Lang

[Maurice Ungaro]

Bob,We have a fellow Creeker, Harry Strassil, who made some holdfasts a couple of years ago. I bought two of them myself, they work tremendously well. Guys who have the Grammercys actually prefer Harry's. Long and short of it, a good holdfast is a wonderful thing indeed!

[Jerome Hanby]

Bob,We have a fellow Creeker, Harry Strassil, who made some holdfasts a couple of years ago. I bought two of them myself, they work tremendously well. Guys who have the Grammercys actually prefer Harry's. Long and short of it, a good holdfast is a wonderful thing indeed!

Truer words have never been spoken...err...typed. JR made two for me and are among my favorite possessions. Sometimes they keep me up at night thinking about building a workbench worthy of them <g>

I've gone round an round (pun intended) thinking about dogs and at the end of the day, I think that square dogs are better as dogs, but round ones (and their holes) are so versatile that the slight superiority of square dogs isn't worth it.

[glenn bradley]

Glenn where did those HF Clamps come from? I like those handles and and the covered clamping surface.

Harbor Freight. 18" go on sale for around 5 bucks pretty often. First ones I made were shorter . . . get the 18's ;-)

[Augusto Orosco]

Truer words have never been spoken...err...typed. JR made two for me and are among my favorite possessions. Sometimes they keep me up at night thinking about building a workbench worthy of them <g>

I've gone round an round (pun intended) thinking about dogs and at the end of the day, I think that square dogs are better as dogs, but round ones (and their holes) are so versatile that the slight superiority of square dogs isn't worth it.

+2 on Jr's Holdfasts. Very happy with mine. And Jr is so talented, perhaps he can make you a square holdfast if you ask nicely :D!

[Jay Maiers]

Glenn where did those HF Clamps come from? I like those handles and and the covered clamping surface.

Just FYI, they're not the best clamps on the planet... I own more than a couple, but only use them for light duty. If you crank too hard the screw will strip and the handle can start spinning. This is not likely to be a problem when you're using it as a hold down, but it will eventally happen if you use them as they are intended. YMMV.

edit: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I've borrowed / outright stolen that idea from Glenn. It works pretty well :)

[Jim Koepke]

I have done something similar with pipe clamps and Irwin bar clamps.

The bar clamps are a little tricky. If you are not careful, all the holding assembly at the grip end will pop out. Figure out how to put them back together before this happens. It is a lot easier than having to figure it out after all the parts have flown across the shop.

Mine are just upside down from what Glenn shows. That way there isn't a lot of things poking up around the bench top.

jtk

[David Weaver]

In terms of top thickness, i've been using the gramercy holdfasts in a top that's only a little over 1" thick and that is skirted. Maybe it's 1 1/4", I don't know, I know the bench is light enough that to make it useable, I had to fill the cabinet below with bricks.

They (the holdfasts) work fine, but the bench is beech, so maybe they work fine only because the wood is hard enough to tolerate them. I haven't noticed any distortion at the holes.

I also have a (fairly wide) sawbench that's made of crappy second growth 8/4 white pine. The holdfasts definitely move/crush the edges of the holes on it, but it still works fine.

[Bob Lang]

I didn't mean to dis any of the hand made holdfasts. My inclination to recommend the Gramercy is based on my frugal nature, and the ease of online ordering.

Bob Lang

[Mike Holbrook]

Tools for Working Wood is quick to handle orders. I ordered my set of Gramercy Holdfasts after lunch today and they were shipped this afternoon. I guess I will have to sacrifice a leather tracking article, used as scent articles for training dogs to track, to get a couple leather pads to glue to the bottoms.

[Jack Curtis]

...I guess I will have to sacrifice a leather tracking article, used as scent articles for training dogs to track, to get a couple leather pads to glue to the bottoms.

Don't be surprised when your bench dog points and refuses to move away from the bench.

Jack

[Jim Koepke]

to get a couple leather pads to glue to the bottoms.

You may find just using a block of wood will work fine. I use scrap 2X3. This keeps a little more above the bench. The leverage angle allows me to set and release the holdfasts with my bare hands for light to medium holding.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

They (the holdfasts) work fine, but the bench is beech, so maybe they work fine only because the wood is hard enough to tolerate them. I haven't noticed any distortion at the holes.

Have you looked at the underside?

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

Bench dog pointing and refusing to move ehhh, hmmm a hunter I think. My dogs, German Shepherds, track people and indicate (lie down) at anything on the track with human scent, potential evidence. We may be healing down the wrong dog hole/angle here but, I thought of the tracking articles because they are easily available in what I am thinking will be a convenient size for use under bench dogs typically full hide 3.5 x 4.5" or close. I think Jim may be right about not gluing them. They could actually do several jobs that way. In my, possibly unusual case, I frequently have leather articles in my pocket anyway. They are convenient to carry around for when I find a few minuets to work the dogs with them. I do use wood articles tracking sometimes but they are not nearly as convenient to carry around. The only point is, I have had trouble keeping up with wood scraps for these purposes before and I think the leather articles might work well and be easier & more comfortable to stash in pockets. They might also come in handy to work chisels, knives or plane blades between work and for other protective purposes as well. I will find out soon enough.

[Jim Koepke]

Bench dog pointing and refusing to move ehhh, hmmm a hunter I think. My dogs, German Shepherds, track people and indicate (lie down) at anything on the track with human scent, potential evidence. We may be healing down the wrong dog hole/angle here but, I thought of the tracking articles because they are easily available in what I am thinking will be a convenient size for use under bench dogs typically full hide 3.5 x 4.5" or close. I think Jim may be right about not gluing them. They could actually do several jobs that way. In my, possibly unusual case, I frequently have leather articles in my pocket anyway. They are convenient to carry around for when I find a few minuets to work the dogs with them. I do use wood articles tracking sometimes but they are not nearly as convenient to carry around. The only point is, I have had trouble keeping up with wood scraps for these purposes before and I think the leather articles might work well and be easier & more comfortable to stash in pockets. They might also come in handy to work chisels, knives or plane blades between work and for other protective purposes as well. I will find out soon enough.

Working with what we have at hand is what we do. :cool:

I think leather will work very well.

The shelf under my bench is full of what I consider "bench furniture." These are blocks of wood and clamping devices including wedges and shims.

In my experience thin pieces of stock benefit by having a block of wood to elevate the holdfast a bit. ymmv

jtk