Tool Discussion Guidelines?

[David DeCristoforo]

The recent thread asking about Glaser tools has suffered the same fate that all such threads seem to suffer. These tool threads invariably deteriorate into a "flame war". I would like to suggest some guidelines for the moderators to consider.

This thread was started by an individual asking a specific question about a specific tool. I would limit the responses to those who can actually answer the OP's question namely those who actually own and use the tool. I would immediately delete any response that attempted to suggest a competitor's tool in preference. An answer to the effect that "I have never used that tool but this one is better" is completely counterproductive. And it is totally useless to offer an opinion about a tool that you have never used. If you never used the tool the OP asked about, you should refrain from offering an opinion.

I would also delete any responses that allude in any way to the personality of the owner of the company that manufactures the tool in question. A statement like "so and so is a great guy, therefore you should buy his tools" is again, completely useless. Even if it is true, it has no bearing on a users satisfaction with the tool. A statement that the company in question provides good service should be quite sufficient even though that really does not answer the OP's question.

Any thread that even threatened to deteriorate into an argument or become contentious in any way would should be instantly deleted.

OK… I know I'm no saint. And I have had plenty of comments edited because they contained something that the moderators considered offensive or "off topic". So I'm not riding in on a high horse here. It's just that these "discussions" have become something of a "pet peeve" for me and I'm almost afraid to answer the questions even when I have the experience that OP asked for because I know that sooner or later, it's going become argumentative and contentious. It makes it virtually impossible to have a constructive discussion about a particular tool.

[Marty Eargle]

I agree for the most part. There is a place to praise whatever tools and materials that you use....and that place is a thread about that product or company, or general "What tool should I get?" threads.

[Scott Hackler]

I would agree with David, to an extent. I apparently are unable to offer comments to either correct something I feel is wrong or for a personal opinion, without offending various tool makers or users of a brand of tool. After the "thread closing" comments I made, I send PM's to a couple fellas that, IMO, took it the wrong way and I apologized. I also have responded to a lengthy PM from a tool maker.

I will not be offering counter point comments in tool threads from now on. I get argumentative and apparently I am unable to express certain observations without being attacked. So no more of that.

Guidelines or instant removal of off point comments might help, but I think the threads are going to be pretty short. We generally have a welcoming open opinion atmosphere, here and I personally like the "back and forth". It does get out of hand sometimes.

If anyone (or everyone) was offended by my post in that thread, I apologize. Again, I will refrain from comments that correct or offer differing views and will just stay to turning and showing.

[curtis rosche]

since it always seems to happen with thompson and glaser tools, a "locked thread" could be created and stickied. a moderator can edit replies. people would create their personal review on the tool they own, then PM it to a moderator who would place it in the locked and stickied thread. then there can be no "flame war" or any of that.

[Dwight McNutt]

ya'll know how it is. opinions are like--well you get the idea. Don't mean they are right, don't mean they are wrong. Just personal opinions.

[Joe Adams]

I'm sorry to see the other thread closed as I was following it to learn more about 10V & 15V tools. I use Henry Taylor HSS Kryo's but am always interested in a better mousetrap. I appreciate the moderators nipping arguments in the bud but I wish there was a way to let discussions continue amicably after the offenders have been reigned in.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joe.....this isn't the first of these threads G vs T that has gotten out of hand and was locked down or removed from public viewing. There is a repeated history of this.

When the amount of work to keep a thread civil outweighs the informational value of the thread it gets closed. We are unpaid invited volunteers. It's never fun nor popular for us to do this as we are almost always attacked publicly or via PM for our actions. Believe me when I say none of the Moderators enjoy having to take these actions.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Have you seen Sawstop threads? They get out of hand almost immediately. I would like to mention that IMO there are just a few highly opinionated persons, that create flame war types of threads. Would it not be better to ban the offender and his IP address rather than shut the thread down? There's a lot of VERY knowledgable folks here, and to have but a few persons ruin the thread is unfortunate. A lot of insight is available.
Yes, unfortunately I do own a Sawstop, and have been called all sorts of names, and one guy even called my wife names.....
Just a thought.

[Curt Fuller]

Ok, I'll throw my two cents into the fracas. I would suggest that you only allow comparisons of tools that are used "as is" so to speak, out of the box, the way they come from the manufacturer. It's my probably misguided opinion that cutting tools, such as gouges. skews, scrapers, etc take on a life of their own once they #1 get touched to the grinder for sharpening and #2 are placed in the hands of the user and put to the wood. Once those two things take place, all comparisons are subjective. I may be totally in love with my Acme do-all bowl gouge and think it's the tool to end my quest for the perfect gouge. But then I could hand it to you and you might hate my grind, hold the tool entirely differently than I hold it, and want to toss it in the garbage thinking it's the worst piece of crap gouge you've ever used. And we'd both be talking about the same tool! Sure 15V stays sharp longer than 10v stays sharp longer than HSS stays sharper than carbon steel. No sweat comparing that but is it worth it to debate whether Thompson's 15V is better than Glaser's 15V or something as subjective as the way a handle feels or what the shape of the flute is? I don't think so.

[Russell Neyman]

Locked discussions? Edited posts? Deleted comments?

I'm unaccustomed to a website that has moderators who try to control discussions as much as this one does. Personally, I think intelligent, literate viewers/consumers can filter through the garbage on their own, and short of pornography or personal attacks, I'm in favor of letting things go. This is the Internet, for Pete's sake; you can't live in cyberspace without being exposed to a degree of juvenile behavior and bias. I understand that people can be passionate about certain feelings, but how is that different than being a Yankees or a Red Sox fan? Or a Chevy guy arguing with a Ford guy? The people who watch the discussions know who the hotheads and argumentative personalities are, and will adjust accordingly.

In the long run, the discussions will prove to be healthy if you just allow the dialogue to take place. The idiots will expose themselves to be who they are, and a voice of reason will be loud and clear.

[Sid Matheny]

As an Administrator/Moderator of another woodworking site I have to applaud the moderators here for not allowing threads that turn into flame wars to remain. We do not let this happen on our site either. It is easier just to let them go at it and get a few folks mad than to do the right thing and delete it and possibilty make more mad. Sharing knowledge is one thing, debating knowledge is not what these forums are for.

Sid

[Mark Engel]

Locked discussions? Edited posts? Deleted comments?

I'm unaccustomed to a website that has moderators who try to control discussions as much as this one does. Personally, I think intelligent, literate viewers/consumers can filter through the garbage on their own, and short of pornography or personal attacks, I'm in favor of letting things go. This is the Internet, for Pete's sake; you can't live in cyberspace without being exposed to a degree of juvenile behavior and bias. I understand that people can be passionate about certain feelings, but how is that different than being a Yankees or a Red Sox fan? Or a Chevy guy arguing with a Ford guy? The people who watch the discussions know who the hotheads and argumentative personalities are, and will adjust accordingly.

In the long run, the discussions will prove to be healthy if you just allow the dialogue to take place. The idiots will expose themselves to be who they are, and a voice of reason will be loud and clear.

I am in complete agreement with this point of view. IMHO there is way too much moderation going on around here.

[Russell Neyman]

I am in complete agreement with this point of view. IMHO there is way too much moderation going on around here.

I want to be clear: I DO APPRECIATE the work moderators do! It seems to me, however, that they should be facilitators of dialogue rather than controllers or censors. After all, the percentage of minors who tune in here is extremely small. In every wood shop I've every been in the language has gotten a little coarse (at times) and some pretty strong opinions are expressed. That's why hearing protection is an important shop accessory.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Russell.....The TOSs that YOU and every member or contributor agreed to abide is what makes SMC different than other websites. You agreed to them. There are plenty of websites out there that allow profanity, uncivil strong opinions and don't have moderating. This site isn't one of them.

The TOSs were written by and with the advisement of the founding membership here at SMC.

The TOSs spell out no profanity, implied profanity.....a level of civility must be maintained.....etc.

As pointed out by Curt Fuller...there are few truly objective reviews given here. As soon as the package comes off the tool, the differences between each of us as users makes most of the reveiws a matter of personal taste or opinion.

When you start getting heated exchanges between disagreeing people, I would suggest there is little knowledge being imparted but rather a "Jerry Springer"-like atmosphere is established. That violates the TOSs. I don't watch that type of entertainment on TV and won't be a part of it on the web either.

Beyond that....there are paid shills that come here masquerading as members/contributors but....when you see a relatively new member with few posts and 20% or greater perscentage is "rah-rahing" or promoting a certain brand of tool, it becomes obvious. It's more obvious when members reveal they were approached to do the same.

This is a privately owned website that is funded by contributors and by paid advertisers. When the shills come here to earn their pay from their benefactors, they are stealing advertising revenue from SMC. Mind you. I and all the Moderators are unpaid, invited volunteers who wish only to keep a friendly atmosphere where we as woodworkers, turners and related crafts can exchange information and make a few friends along the way. None of us are power mongers that relish editing or deleting postings and don't gain anything personally. I can honestly say I have a coffee cup Keith made me a few years ago with my name, the SMC logo and "Moderator" on it. That is the only thing I have gotten for my time here.

I would suggest the constant growth in SMC membership proves that moderating does seem to work for the majority of members.

[Mark Engel]

Russell.....The TOSs that YOU and every member or contributor agreed to abide is what makes SMC different than other websites. You agreed to them. There are plenty of websites out there that allow profanity, strong opinions and don't have moderating. This site isn't one of them.

I guess I missed that rule against having a strong opinion. How is the strength of one's opinion measured?

[Russell Neyman]

Russell.....The TOSs that YOU and every member or contributor agreed to abide is what makes SMC different than other websites. You agreed to them. There are plenty of websites out there that allow profanity, strong opinions and don't have moderating. This site isn't one of them.

Ken, PM sent.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mark and Russell.....My computer keeps kicking me offline. I was in the process of editing my initial post.

Mark....heated uncivil arguments/strong opinions gain nothing other that a Jerry Springer attitude. It doesn't belong at SMC. Key word "UNCIVIL"....Unfriendly.....

[Mark Engel]

Mark and Russell.....My computer keeps kicking me offline. I was in the process of editing my initial post.

Mark....heated uncivil arguments/strong opinions gain nothing other that a Jerry Springer attitude. It doesn't belong at SMC. Key word "CIVIL"....Unfriendly.....

That is your opinion. Mine differs. Strong opinions, expressed civilly, absolutely do have a place in all discussions, including SMC.

[Alan Zenreich]

As one who has been administering discussion forums for 12 years (and online for 28 years) I wholeheartedly agree with the firm moderation approach.

I've seen too many communities self destruct without it. Suggesting that members can and will have relevant, productive, and non destructive conversations without moderation is a lovely thought, but naive. Members don't know how much work goes on behind the scene trying to deal with complaints and attempting to keep the peace when threads get 'heated'.

Shills, trolls and general troublemakers are just the more obvious causes. Sometimes it's just because folk have been drinking, and are mean drunks.

The list of things that can disrupt a community is long and wide. Members are here as guests of the site owners, should behave as such, and not assume some inordinate sense of entitlement.

[Mark Engel]

As one who has been administering discussion forums for 12 years (and online for 28 years) I wholeheartedly agree with the firm moderation approach.

I've seen too many communities self destruct without it. Suggesting that members can and will have relevant, productive, and non destructive conversations without moderation is a lovely thought, but naive. Members don't know how much work goes on behind the scene trying to deal with complaints and attempting to keep the peace when threads get 'heated'.

Shills, trolls and general troublemakers are just the more obvious causes. Sometimes it's just because folk have been drinking, and are mean drunks.

The list of things that can disrupt a community is long and wide. Members are here as guests of the site owners, should behave as such, and not assume some inordinate sense of entitlement.

Nor should the moderators.

FYI. I am not drunk. I am not a shill and I am not a Troll. I just have an opinion that I would like to express.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Here is my $1.298. I do appreciate the mod's here because they are more tolerate here than some other sites I belong to. The mod's here do a great job. I am a moderator on another woodworking site. When you join you read the rules and you will abide by them. If you don't and there is a post that you are flaming, use profanity, personal attacks or try to shove your opinion down someones throat the the thread is closed and you will get a e-mail warning from one of the mod's or list owner. If it happens again another e-mail with your last warning. A third time you are banned from the site. Needless to say these types of posts are far and few between. Two other sites I belong to of which I am not a mod are the same way. A couple of warnings and you are gone.

So I don't think closing a thread to end the nonsense IMHO is not really that hard on us.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mark,

Nobody has implied you are a shill, a troll or drunk.

It's just several different people have stated reasons for those who disagree with moderating at a site. None of those words/labels were directed at you personally.

[Jake Helmboldt]

I'll say this in defense of the mods. There was one post where I got a message that the mods edited my response to someone who was essentially acting the arse. I responded in kind and got chastised. The other person had a reputation (in my eyes for being a jerk). He hasn't been around for a while. I don't know if he got the boot or what, but I can't say that I miss him (much, because he actually did have good things to say sometimes). So...that is my way of saying that I think the mods are pretty even handed and typically shut things down only after they degrade too far. Other sites don't and they have suffered as a result. One is a shell of its former self with few visitors, save for the mainstays, including one guy that you can count on to be a total jerk.

I think the mods have managed to put the moderate in moderate (short vs long "a") fairly well.

[Russell Neyman]

I come here because it's a wonderful source of ground zero technical expertise, as well as a place to be inspired by the artisans who post their work. The playful banter and verbal sparring is a plus. I avoid the political, religious, or ethical debates that occasionally pop up, but they're easy to spot, so I simply don't worry about them.

Time to move on and get back to spinny things and the woodgrain battle.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

This thread has run it's course and is closed.