So if I botched a saw sharpening...

[Zach England]

I made my first attempt at saw sharpening and am having a hell of a time. I am not making good contact with the cutting edge of the tooth and am coming away with uneven teeth and oddly shaped gullets. I am going to find a way to correct this (which may or may not be possible considering my visual impairment), but is there a way to correct it or should I just toss this saw plate? If I decide I want to correct it should I continue on this saw then joint the teeth?

[Mark Baldwin III]

Can you get a picture of the teeth? I have a saw that's fighting me tooth and nail at the moment. It's possible to sharpen a saw no matter the problem. Is just a matter of effort. The file and tooth count have to work together as well. In this, I will say it's best to err on the side of the file being too small. This is a philosophical question, and I will hear nothing against it! Actually, go ahead and prove me wrong...I can use all the help I can get ;)
The shape of the teeth before sharpening also have a huge impact. I'm currently in a death match against a saw that has nothing BUT malformed teeth. Again...it can be done! (that's what I tell myself, anyway). You may have to joint and shape the teeth a couple of times before it all comes together. Keep at it, if you're like me, each pass will teach you something and you'll inch closer to that thing called "expert". BTW, I'm still yards away from expert, but I'm inching my way there :)

[ray hampton]

do you have a picture of your saw vise? are you standing when you file the teeth ?

[Jim Koepke]

I made my first attempt at saw sharpening and am having a hell of a time. I am not making good contact with the cutting edge of the tooth and am coming away with uneven teeth and oddly shaped gullets. I am going to find a way to correct this (which may or may not be possible considering my visual impairment), but is there a way to correct it or should I just toss this saw plate? If I decide I want to correct it should I continue on this saw then joint the teeth?

I would be surprised if this doesn't happen to most people when they start sharpening saws.

Most of the time when sharpening saws mine will benefit from a second and sometimes a third jointing.

Surely others have different ways that may be an improvement on my methods. After the first jointing and sharpening if there are a lot of snaggly looking teeth it will be jointed again. This is when I will look for larger flats and try and equalize all the flats down the length of the saw. Rinse and repeat as needed...

Being able to see what you are doing is important. My eye-ware needs to be intensified for me to be able to see what is taking place.

Are you using a block of wood on the end of the file to help you keep it straight and level?

There are devices that can be attached to a saw vice to guide a file. I have one for a chain saw. Never have looked at it to see if it will work for a hand saw.

jtk

[Zach England]

So this shows how badly I have mangled it. it was a new saw plate (I know, I know) and shows the size of file I am using. of the numerous files I got from TFWW this is the smallest one I have.http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o237/zachslc/IMG_1074.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o237/zachslc/IMG_1077.jpg

[Trevor Walsh]

The first time I sharpened a coarse rip saw I couldn't correct the drift in the saw, I did it again and it was a bit better. I'm going to take Jim's advise and sharpen it a few more times, maybe then it will be right?

Also using a block with a hole for the toe end of the file and a line for the rake angle drawn on it was helpful for keeping the rake uniformish.

[Andrae Covington]

...There are devices that can be attached to a saw vice to guide a file. I have one for a chain saw. Never have looked at it to see if it will work for a hand saw.

I have a saw filing guide that I use. By loosening a nut or two, the file can be rotated to approximately match the rake angle of the teeth (or to whatever you want them to be), and then there are some preset detents for the fleam angle (including none for rip). Not entirely idiotproof but seems to help me be more consistent from tooth to tooth. These were made in the late 40's / early 50's by Speed Corp. based here in Portland.

211534


The file and tooth count have to work together as well. In this, I will say it's best to err on the side of the file being too small.

I recently kind of botched one of my saws by using a file that was too large for the teeth. I know it is recoverable though, and in fact the saw actually cuts ok, better than when it was dull. Looks pretty ugly. I will have to buy the correct size file, rejoint the teeth (as Jim Koepke said, another round or two of jointing and filing can help), and go again.

[Shaun Mahood]

You guys are going to get me back into trying to sharpen one of my saws - I gave up way too quickly, apparently (still working on this "patience" thing).

[Zach England]

Andrae, that looks like something that would really help me. is there anyone who sells a newer version or do I have to scour the old tool lists? When i google it all i get is stuff for sharpening chainsaws. What precisely is it called?

[Andrae Covington]

Andrae, that looks like something that would really help me. is there anyone who sells a newer version or do I have to scour the old tool lists? When i google it all i get is stuff for sharpening chainsaws. What precisely is it called?

I have not seen a modern equivalent, unfortunately. Not much demand for DIY handsaw filing these days... present company excluded. I bought mine on ebay but a quick search didn't turn up any today. They do show up from time to time. The patent (http://ip.com/patent/US2495991) calls it a "saw filer guide".

Try the block of wood as Jim and Trevor suggested. The vintagesaws.com saw filing primer (http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html) shows a couple examples, about halfway down the page. He calls it a "rake alignment jig". That might be all you need, and it's free.:)

EDIT:

Looks like Eclipse makes something along those lines. Here's one at h (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/eclipse-saw-sharpener.aspx)ighlandwoodworking.com (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/eclipse-saw-sharpener.aspx). I found this comment about it on a uk forum that doesn't sound encouraging:


I've got one, and have tried to use it - but I find it more of a hinderance than a help. You have to realign it for every tooth, and aligning a jig accurately is a fiddle.

And you *still* have to judge the evenness of the teeth by eye, and that's one of the harder tasks.

And it requires special files.

[ray hampton]

I'm not an expert at filing saw teeth, are you using a triangle file or a flat file ? I could not tell by looking at the picture, do your saw cut with all of the teeth ? the reason that I am asking is because some of the saw teeth seems to be higher that the other teeth, I set my saw teeth and took a flat file along the teeth so all teeth would be the same height, maybe someone can help me with the name for the line filing

[Zach England]

I'm not an expert at filing saw teeth, are you using a triangle file or a flat file ? I could not tell by looking at the picture, do your saw cut with all of the teeth ? the reason that I am asking is because some of the saw teeth seems to be higher that the other teeth, I set my saw teeth and took a flat file along the teeth so all teeth would be the same height, maybe someone can help me with the name for the line filing

That is a triangular saw sharpening file. My only concern about the file is that it is too large, but it is the smallest I have and looking at the Lie-Nielsen video about saw sharpening it looks to be proportionate to the one he uses. That saw plate has never been used because I purchased it as an unsharpened "kit". In other words, yes, the teeth were all properly jointed at one time.

Now looking into the rake alignment jig. Will report soon.

[ray hampton]

one thing that I forgot to mention is to use a marker pen to coat the teeth surface and then take a very light stroke on the tooth with your file to see if the file are filing to the bottom of the teeth, you want to file each tooth without touching the tooth next to it

[Mark Baldwin III]

I set my saw teeth and took a flat file along the teeth so all teeth would be the same height, maybe someone can help me with the name for the line filing

Bringing the teeth to the same height by running a file down the top of the tooth line is called jointing. Using a stone or file on the side to adjust the set is stoning.

btw, our friends at LV have a saw sharpening jig. I haven't used one, though I'd consider it: http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32955&cat=1,43072,43086

[Chris Griggs]

Zach... You can absolutely fix that, but as others have it may now take a couple rejointings/reshapings. First joint the teeth down, way down, but not so far that they disappear entirely. Then run a marker over the flats, just to make it easier to see what flats are larger and what flats are smaller. Starting a the heel, work down the length of the saw filing every tooth (not every other). If your not already, use a rake guide (the block of wood at the end of the file Jim K mentioned earlier). For each pair of teeth you are filing, use the flats as the indicator of how much to file and where to apply presser. If the flat on any pair of teeth is larger then lean a bit more pressure into that tooth as with each file stroke being careful to make sure you keep you rake consistent. Less is more here, especially when you first are starting. You don't to make all the flats disappear on your first pass. The key here is getting them even, until they all a just disappear evenly. Even once you get them even, you will need to pay attention to how you are applying pressure to the file and where metal is being removed. Its very easy to unintentionally bias the file to one tooth or the other which creates "big tooth, little tooth" AKA "Calves and Cows". You can't just rely on counting strokes - you need to be able to see where you are removing metal and you need to be deliberate about where you are removing metal. It may take a couple of jointings to get things completely evened out - that is okay, you'll be surprised how quickly you improve. Keep at it you'll get there sooner than you think. REALLY you will.

[Robert Rozaieski]

It looks like your main problem is not maintaining a consistent rake angle. If the face of the file is held at a different angle in each gullet, you will get exactly the problem you are seeing here. However, this is absolutely fixable. Here's what I would do.

First, joint the teeth level. You may have to do this a couple of times, filing the gullets lightly between jointings if the height of the teeth is really off. No big deal, it just takes time. You have plenty of saw plate left.

Next, make a rake angle guide block. This is simply a small block of soft wood with a hole drilled in it for the front of the file to be stuck in. Make the hole a little smaller than the tip of the file. Using a protractor or sliding bevel, draw the desired rake angle on the block, tangent to the hole. Then jam the front of the file in the hole, aligning the face of the file with the rake angle line drawn on the block. The angle should lean toward the heel of the saw. When you file, keep this block level, and you wil maintain a consistent rake angle. This should solve a good part of the problems it looks like you are having.

[Jim Paulson]

"My eye-ware needs to be intensified for me to be able to see what is taking place."

I agree with Jim on the aspect of eye-ware. I swear by the opti-visor that I use for sharpening saws and when doing detailed carving on projects. The opti-visor takes a little getting used to, but it helps me control how much metal I remove.

Great comments BTW and best wishes Zach. Sharpening saws does humble me and taking your time seems to make it go smoother. The whole point is to get the teeth pretty close to being the same height and shape and not sweating the slight differences created from hand filing.

Take care,
Jim

[Zach England]

"My eye-ware needs to be intensified for me to be able to see what is taking place."

I agree with Jim on the aspect of eye-ware. I swear by the opti-visor that I use for sharpening saws and when doing detailed carving on projects. The opti-visor takes a little getting used to, but it helps me control how much metal I remove.

Great comments BTW and best wishes Zach. Sharpening saws does humble me and taking your time seems to make it go smoother. The whole point is to get the teeth pretty close to being the same height and shape and not sweating the slight differences created from hand filing.

Take care,
Jim

Therein lies part of the challenge. I am actually visually impaired and have to work partly by feel. I do have a huge assemblage of various magnifiers that I am using, and am looking for a better one. My vision is very unique and is hard to explain, so I won't bore you with the details. However, I am yet to meet a visual challenge in woodworking I have not been able to overcome with the right aids and method. When my vision gets in the way of doing something I get more and more determined to do it and to do it well.

I got so frustrated last night that I just had to put it down for a while. I have done some reading an am going to re-visit it this evening with the rake alignment jig. I think that will alleviate much of my problem.

I am still curious about the older saw filing guides that a few have mentioned, but the new offerings on the market don't look very impressive.

Can anyone comment on my file size in the picture?

Thanks for the help.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Can anyone comment on my file size in the picture?

Hard to tell from the photo, but it looks a little large for the teeth in question - I'm mostly judging by the wear marks on the file - it looks like you've got quite a large area in the center that's no getting used - I try and size my files so that the file is just large enough that I can use all three corners; the file is just a hair taller than the gullets.

I've usually just defaulted to using any of the file to tooth size tables available - I think I've been going by this one (http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html) from VintageSaws.com




File Type PPI of Saw
7" Regular Taper 4-5.5
7" Slim Taper 6,7
6" Slim Taper 8
6" XSlim Taper 9,10
6" 2XSlim Taper 11
5" 2XSlim Taper 12-14
4" 2XSlim Taper 15-20

[Chris Vandiver]

Zach,

Here is a site with some very good info on saw sharpening; http://home.grics.net/~weir/saw_restoration.html

[Jonathan McCullough]

I am actually visually impaired and have to work partly by feel.

Don't assume that your impairment is tripping you up. I've got good vision but find most of the feedback of saw filing is tactile, and only confirmed by sight. When filing an old saw that's in good condition but just dull, I set the file in the existing gullets and let them tell me the predominant rake (and fleam, if it's a crosscut saw). If you use a file handle that isn't perfectly symmetrical, your fingers and wrist can tell you if you're at the correct (consistent) angle, going from tooth to tooth. I also put my thumb on the end of the file, and that provides more sense of the degree of rake. Eventually you develop a muscle memory. Use layout die or a red sharpie pen to mark out the tops of the jointed teeth. When you go from tooth to tooth, count the number of strokes. This tends to create teeth and gullets of a consistent depth along the tooth edge. If you find that it takes five strokes to fully form a tooth (and the layout die is gone, replaced by a sharp point), do three strokes on the next tooth and only then visually confirm whether you need to put emphasis on the left or the right part of the gullet for the last two (of five) strokes to form a more even tooth. Not every tooth will be perfect, but with practice you'll get consistent results. The resistance of the saw to the file will tell you if the temper is inconsistent in patches (on older saws), and/or if you need to clean out the swarf from your file and re-charge it with chalk. I use chalk to keep the gullets from clogging up. When re-forming teeth after jointing down, using a big file is fine, and even preferable. You'll want to file those in from one side with no fleam. Then set the teeth if necessary and give a final sharpening, with fleam, using the correct sized file. The final sharpening will probably only be two strokes per gullet, maybe three. Thinner saw plates work quicker but have almost as many teeth as a full hand saw.

Use the force, Luke.

[john brenton]

The first saws I sharpened I paid no attention to having the right sized file or using a guide. It came out fine. But from then on every saw I tried to sharpen came out like garbage. I then got the right sized files and made a little guide and now it comes out great every time.

[Jim Matthews]

I would take Bob's advice very seriously.

This past weekend I saw a tool monger (Matt Cianci of Hyperkitten) wade through three saws an hour.
One of three blocks was kept slightly ahead of his progress as a gauge to set the angle of fleam to be cut.

These could easily be chamfered to act also as a rake angle guide, by feel. I'm no fan of the mechanical aides, but I can still see where I'm going.
I grasp the idea that those could really reduce your positioning errors. I just hate the damn things, that's all.

They were small, no more than 2" along the axis of the teeth - 3" across. The short axis had a slot cut into it that set the fleam angle for the file to follow.
If you get the teeth that sharp - you had best get some kevlar carver's mitts.

FYI - MC had blue painter's tape on top for visibility and he has excellent vision.

Jim
-12 diopter, both eyes