A Different What Comes First Question

[Jim Koepke]

My current project is building a new cage for our geese.

While working out the joinery, a question came to mind.

For a mortice and tenon joint, what do people cut first and why?

Hopefully this isn't like the dovetail question of similar disposition.

I am sure there is good reasoning for either way just like dovetails.

jtk

[Carol Reed]

Hole first, then whatever fits in it. In the case of mortise and tenon, mortise first. My 2 cents.

[Jim Matthews]

I'm with Carol - I cut the hole first.
I measure and mark the hole off the chisel I intend to use.

It is MUCH easier to make a tenon smaller than it is to make a hole larger (maintaining square sides).

[Dale Cruea]

I cut the mortise first. Then mess up the tenon so bad it doesn't fit and have to glue/shim or whatever to make it fit. But still the mortise first.:confused:

[Mark Baldwin III]

This is a good question, Jim. I'm finally taking a break from all of my tool tinkering to actually build something! Holy cow, Mark's going to actually make something! Anyway, both of the projects I have right now (and the next two) involve lots of M&T joints.

[David Nelson1]

I cut the mortise first. Then mess up the tenon so bad it doesn't fit and have to glue/shim or whatever to make it fit. But still the mortise first.:confused:

Dale have you been looking over my shoulder?!! :D

[Steve Baumgartner]

Me too. M&T always needs final fitting. It is very difficult to accurately adjust the inside of the mortise, but not too bad to shave down the tenon.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for all the replies, explanations and a bit of mirth.

My geese also thank you. I am trying to make a nice looking well jointed cage for them. I wish we didn't need one, but if they are not penned up at night there are animals that would love a goose dinner.

The side rail and style will be bridal jointed and the front styles will have a tenon on each end to fit in a mortice in to the bridal joint.

My thoughts is that the frame can be put together for display and then if someone wants to buy it, it can be disassembled for them to fit it into their vehicle.

jtk

[jeff . whitaker]

Jim,
I have always made the hole first and made the tennon to fit....
However...... I found a good 20 X 20 dog pen floored with pine shavings and roofed with plywood for shade and chicken wire over the top and around the bottom was the best solution...( coons can't get through the wire)
:D BTW some time I will have to tell you the story about the neighborhood "crackhead" and my geese... they are the BEST watch dogs....

[Jim Koepke]

chicken wire over the top and around the bottom was the best solution...( coons can't get through the wire)
BTW some time I will have to tell you the story about the neighborhood "crackhead" and my geese... they are the BEST watch dogs....

There will be half inch grid wire cloth for the bottom with some bracing in the middle and another platform for the water tank.

Then chicken wire all around.

That is one thing I like about geese is they honk when ever something new comes by.

jtk

[Rick Fisher]

I always do the mortise first, then cut the tennon on the bandsaw.. then make the tennon fit the hole with chisels..

Funny, when I got a domino.. I stopped making them.. A while back, I went back to Mortise and Tennon because I kinda missed the fiddling..

[Maurice Ungaro]

I'll be the odd man out here, and vote for tenons first. By making the tenon first, you can use the tenon to lay out the mortise.

[Jerome Hanby]

I cut the mortise first. It's easier to adjust the tenon to sneak up on a good fit.

[glenn bradley]

Another 'Mortise First' guy here. Much easier to "fit" the tenon with a shoulder plane than try to keep the mortise walls parallel and perpendicular during fitting for me.

[Zach Dillinger]

Mortise first, then tenon cut to fit. Also, you can use the mortise to lay out the tenons, just requires a couple more pencil lines.

[Jim Rimmer]

I'll be the odd man out here, and vote for tenons first. By making the tenon first, you can use the tenon to lay out the mortise.
Two oddballs here. I cut the tenon first and the enlarge the hole to fit but I use power tools.

[Scott Stafford]

Wait a minute?! You build a cage to keep geese in?

Here in Montana we have to build cages to keep the Canadian geese out! Rodents with feathers!

We can't get rid of them! Nothing seems to work. Firecrackers, automated shotgun blasts, high frequency noise, decoys of hunters. If you have something around your place that makes caging geese necessary, something that they try to get away from... we might be able to get rich!


Scott in Montana

[Jim Neeley]

Scott,

Getting rid of them is easy... all it takes are a few rednecks, some street sweepers and a few chest freezers.

They are horriffic poop machines.

[jeff . whitaker]

:)[QUOTE=Jim Neeley;1799103]Scott,

Getting rid of them is easy... all it takes are a few rednecks, some street sweepers and a few chest freezers.


HEY!! I resemble that remark.. I are a Redneck!!

[Jason Coen]

:) HEY!! I resemble that remark.. I are a Redneck!!


Scott,Getting rid of them is easy... all it takes are a few rednecks, some street sweepers and a few chest freezers.

And goose chili is delicious!

[Scott Stafford]

Alas, there's that pesky Federal Migratory Bird Act of 1918 (http://www.wildgoosechasers.com/fed_law.php) . $5,000 to $10,000 fine for shooting at them. Can you believe that?!

I'm not completely sure about this, but I think their poop output equals 300% of their food intake. A miracle of science!


Scott in Montana

[Jason Coen]

Luckily, we have a quite lengthy and liberal goose season here. I'd be shocked if MT's wasn't fairly similar. And most farmers (and quite a few golf courses!) are more than happy to have us "help" with their goose problem.

[Danny Buie]

Four tools for making a mortise and tenon joint: Marking Gage, Mortise Chisel, Tenon Saw and Shoulder Plane. The mortise chisel is fixed in width. You can cut cut a mortise wider than the chisel but it requires extra effort. The tenon can be cut to any width. I say it it is easier to cut the mortise first and then fit the tenon to the mortise because as someone said earlier the tenon is more easily trimed (with a shoulder plane).
Danny Buie
Baton Rouge

[Maurice Ungaro]

It all comes down to what you are used to and what you've been practicing. Pick a system and get good with it. Ever seen Frank Klausz cut dovetails? Skeery fast, and he does them pins first. That's the way he was trained under the european task masters. That's the way he does it best. Is the THE ONLY WAY? For Frank, it is.

[Scott Stafford]

I agree that the goose season here is as open as any state's. The problem lies in the fact that the geese have stopped migrating over the last twenty five years. They're here all year round. And yet they are still protected under migratory laws. We have thousands and thousands of them in our small urban area. They've ruined the parks, the golf courses, the school playgrounds, the river front trails, and even some lawns.

Years ago I view them as majestic and beautiful. It was a treat to see them flying in formation and occasionally viewing them on a rest. Now they're big feathered rats. And did I mention they are aggressive? 15 pound ornery feathered rats!


Scott in Montana

[Joe Cunningham]

I cut the tenon oversized (slightly) in thickness and then cut the mortise the exact width of the tenon. Any trimming is still done on the tenon, and the mortise is super simple to lay out. Like others I use my mortise chisel to size everything. I only gauge one edge of the mortise as the other is made by the chisel.

[Jim Matthews]

If you intend to sell them, consider a through wedge that you can remove.

Would coyotes be able to gnaw through the material used? Cunning devils - they're chicken thieves, around here.

[Jim Koepke]

If you have something around your place that makes caging geese necessary, something that they try to get away from... we might be able to get rich!


Here we have coyotes and raccoons. They eat just about any living thing that isn't bigger or can't get away.

Our geese or a domesticated breed. They will get into things. They seem to want to sample everything for eatability everyday.

Ours are not only less than brilliant intelligence wise, they are not capable of flight for more than a few feet.

jtk

[James Scheffler]

I agree that the goose season here is as open as any state's. The problem lies in the fact that the geese have stopped migrating over the last twenty five years. They're here all year round. And yet they are still protected under migratory laws. We have thousands and thousands of them in our small urban area. They've ruined the parks, the golf courses, the school playgrounds, the river front trails, and even some lawns.

Years ago I view them as majestic and beautiful. It was a treat to see them flying in formation and occasionally viewing them on a rest. Now they're big feathered rats. And did I mention they are aggressive? 15 pound ornery feathered rats!

Scott in Montana

+1. I can't stand it when I see people feeding them. They're just making the problem worse....

Jim S.

[Jim Koepke]

Wow, thanks for all the replies.

This question came to me while working in the shop and it seemed interesting for discussion.

My mortices will be cut before the tenons on this project.

The biggest challenge will be the mortices will be through two pieces of a bridal joint. My test piece have shown that I need to cut at least part of the mortice before cutting the bridal joint.

Maybe it will be a good idea to take the camera out to the shop while this project is in progress.

jtk

[Scott Stafford]

Raccoons and coyotes! We need to import your skinny starving raccoons and coyotes... and export our fat and lazy ones to you. Problem solved. You won't lose geese to the varmints, and the skinny raccoons and coyotes will eat up our excess geese! Brilliant! I suppose eventually we'll have the same trouble that Hawaii has with the mongoose... but who cares.... I'll probably be dead by then.

Scott in Montana

[Gary Herrmann]

Mortise, then tenon. I like being able to sneak up on the fit.

[Ron Kellison]

Mortise first, cut tenon on table saw then fit with a shoulder plane. Occasionally, just to change things up I cut the mortise on the router table and round the tenon corners. Also, it wouldn't hurt to peg the bridle joints.

Ron

[Russell Sansom]

Jim,
What kind of geese? I grew up on a farm and we always had a flock of greylags. Some people think they're the smartest bird or close to it. The Ganders wouldn't take anything from ANYTHING under 7 feet tall. But I understand they can't fortify themselves in captivity the way they can in the wild. Last week I watched a flock in one of Illinois's state parks. For the half hour I was there, they swam 30 feet off shore and stared at me. When I walked away, they swam back to shore and went about their business ( eating everything within reach and defecating on the shore as only a flock of geese can).

[Jim Koepke]

What kind of geese?

I believe ours are toulouse geese.

We bought a sexed pair to try to raise a few.

They do not seem overly intelligent.

I can imagine part of the domestication process involved selecting docile and not rebellious birds over the years.

jtk

[Scott Stafford]

After this dialog the last couple days, I stopped by one of our local public parks yesterday. There was a flock of Canadian geese all huddled down. So I judged the density of maybe a ten foot by ten foot section and then extrapolated the entire population of the flock from the total area of the ground covered by the birds. 360 to 400 birds! Can you imagine the defecation destruction? Grass won't grow in areas where the geese have settled and of course they prefer the grassed areas so they move onto those areas. It's quite a problem.

I understand our golf courses have even larger invasions. And I understand the lakes and bird reserves outside of town have huge over-populations that are forcing other species out. Oh well, I guess nature will just have to sort this out.

Why couldn't we have been spited with hoards of hummingbirds?


Scott in Montana