OT-Spatial reasoning

[Chuck Wintle]

This may be way off topic but I was spurred by some recent observations at the grocery store to make this post. I was wondering who comes by this ability more naturally...men or women.
Moderators...delete topic of too controversial.

thx,
chuck

[Jim Koepke]

Must be women because I am not really quite sure what you are talking about.

However, if you mean being able to look at things and knowing how much space it will take for them to fit into, that may come naturally equally to both men and women.

I have known men and women who can do it. Both of my parents were good at this and so am I. Not sure if that means it is genetic or if I just learned it from them.

My folks had a furniture and appliance store and it was often necessary to pack a pick-up truck for deliveries. It is amazing how much can be fit into a well packed truck bed.

Reading the OP for a second time makes me think back to the early days of my youth. Back then, kids worked in grocery stores as baggers. They were taught how to get the most in each bag without flattening the bread or squashing the produce. I am not sure if they still do that kind of training, but watching a few checkers bagging groceries tells me some have it and some don't.

jtk

[Jamie Buxton]

... naturally...

It's really tough to figure out who has anything "naturally". Humans learn a great deal of who we are from the culture around us. It is darn difficult to separate all that learned behaviour from what we might have "naturally".

[Chuck Wintle]

It's really tough to figure out who has anything "naturally". Humans learn a great deal of who we are from the culture around us. It is darn difficult to separate all that learned behaviour from what we might have "naturally".
that is so true!

[Dan Hintz]

I was wondering who comes by this ability more naturally...men or women.
Women.

At least that's what we were taught in drafting class back in high school (and all further research I've seen has held up that assertion). Of course, the question has become is it nature or nurture. A few studies have been done that show this may not hold true in other cultures as they treat their children differently (nurture). I don't really have an opinion one way or the other as to the cause, but my experience has been women are sharper at it.

[Jim Rimmer]

Women.

At least that's what we were taught in drafting class back in high school (and all further research I've seen has held up that assertion). Of course, the question has become is it nature or nurture. A few studies have been done that show this may not hold true in other cultures as they treat their children differently (nurture). I don't really have an opinion one way or the other as to the cause, but my experience has been women are sharper at it.

I'm not quite sure what you are referring to as spatial reasoning. However, when I taught drafting in middle school and high school I found that boys grasped the concept at an earlier age than girls. Back in those days we taught orthographic projection and many of the girls just couldn't get it.

[Belinda Barfield]

If the discussion is which sex has a better grasp of how many of which object can fit in a space . . . have you ever looked inside a woman's purse? Or her luggage? LOL. I can pack a moving truck, my SO can't. When we worked with cultured marble either of us could order the kit for a shower surround, no matter the configuration, which requires you to be able to build the surround in your mind.

[Chuck Wintle]

If the discussion is which sex has a better grasp of how many of which object can fit in a space . . . have you ever looked inside a woman's purse? Or her luggage? LOL. I can pack a moving truck, my SO can't. When we worked with cultured marble either of us could order the kit for a shower surround, no matter the configuration, which requires you to be able to build the surround in your mind.
I was reading further today and the the proper designation is visual thinking which involves the right brain. Neither sex is better or worse it seems.

[Greg Portland]

This may be way off topic but I was spurred by some recent observations at the grocery store to make this post. I was wondering who comes by this ability more naturally...men or women.
Moderators...delete topic of too controversial.

thx,
chuckIt's a learned skill, just like following a map.

[Belinda Barfield]

It's a learned skill, just like following a map.

And here's where I fall off the cliff. I can read and follow a map. The navigation system map in my car, however, completely confuses me. When I make a turn, etc., I wish the map would reorient and not the icon for the car on the map. Sometimes it appears I'm going in the opposite direction (if that makes any sense) and I get totally confused.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

If the discussion is which sex has a better grasp of how many of which object can fit in a space . . . have you ever looked inside a woman's purse? Or her luggage? LOL. I can pack a moving truck, my SO can't. When we worked with cultured marble either of us could order the kit for a shower surround, no matter the configuration, which requires you to be able to build the surround in your mind.

No offense Belinda, but putting "woman's purse", "luggage", and "moving truck" in the same sentence........all I can say is that when we travel, my wife *needs* a moving truck - and I'm sure she would pack it most efficiently - but I usually get by with just a small carry-on bag :)

[Belinda Barfield]

No offense Belinda, but putting "woman's purse", "luggage", and "moving truck" in the same sentence........all I can say is that when we travel, my wife *needs* a moving truck - and I'm sure she would pack it most efficiently - but I usually get by with just a small carry-on bag :)

John, note that purse, luggage, and moving truck aren't all in the same sentence . . . :)

My mother is hopeless at packing a moving truck, I inherited that skill from my dad. As for travel, well, there have been times I needed a moving truck but those were times when I had no idea what I was packing for - if that makes any sense. Give me an idea of what I'm doing on a weekend trip and I can get it down to a backpack in most cases when necessary. If there is a formal event I have to go with a little larger bag. :D

[Dan Hintz]

And here's where I fall off the cliff. I can read and follow a map. The navigation system map in my car, however, completely confuses me. When I make a turn, etc., I wish the map would reorient and not the icon for the car on the map. Sometimes it appears I'm going in the opposite direction (if that makes any sense) and I get totally confused.
Most GPSs will allow you to select their orientation mode... like you, I prefer the car hood to always point towards the top of the GPS. My father prefers North to always point up (like you have it now). Do a little digging in the menus... sometimes it's as simple as tapping the compass rose in the corner of the map.

[glenn bradley]

I'm sure we have all met someone who has trouble visualizing physical things in their mind. If you told someone to picture a chair, then a lamp to one side of the chair, then a magazine rack to the other side of the chair. Add to that picture a dog sleeping on the floor in front of the magazine rack and a leash coiled on the floor in front of the lamp. Now ask the person what the physical relationship of the leash to the dog is. People who can visualize will tell you that the leash is to the left of, or to the right of the dog; depending on their original visualization positions. People who have trouble visualizing will have lost you at the introduction of the magazine rack. It is even more challenging for some folks if you don't use common objects. Instead of a chair it is an 'X', instead of a lamp it is a 'Y' and so forth. Similar to tests where you are shown a 2D drawing of a 3D object and then asked to select it from a group where it is placed in an alternate position/axis among similar but not identical objects. Some folks find this painfully easy while others cannot find the object at all. One is not more or less intelligent than the other necessarily. They just think differently. Some folks find Waldo right away and others don't see him at all ;-)

[Larry Browning]

This may be way off topic but I was spurred by some recent observations at the grocery store to make this post. I was wondering who comes by this ability more naturally...men or women.
Moderators...delete topic of too controversial.

thx,
chuck
I am curious as to what particular observation at the grocery store "spurred" this question in the first place?

[Ryan Mooney]

It is interesting how people perceive things differently though (regardless of sex). Sometimes there are subtle differences in perception that make huge real world differences.

As an example:
I have a pretty good ability to create a picture of something in my mind and transform that into reality - whether reality is a rough drawing (disclaimer: definitely NOT an artist this is more like being able to do an orthographic projection of geometric shape) or a physical object. Swmbo finds that skill completely baffling and apparently doesn't see "pictures" in her head. OTOH she can walk into a room and give the rough dimensions way more accurately than I can and tell if object (couch/chair/etc...) will properly fit while I'm still building the cardboard model :) This transforms into me going "see I'm going to build this with the doohickey here and the doodlebob over there curving back into the watchamacalit" and getting back a blank stare, and the reverse of "that will never fit" - fits fine. On the surface of it these seem like very closely related skills but turns out they aren't interchangeable.

If you start talking to folks and asking them "what do you see" here or "how would you perceive blah blah" you'll often get back surprising or baffling answers (alternatively I may well have a warped view of reality so ymmv on that particular experiment :rolleyes:).

I suspect that trying to actually "get inside" most other peoples heads is a fools game for most of us, but I do find it somewhat educational to ask "what do you see when you look at this" (really hard to avoid frontloading that question with "do you see the ..." but you get more interesting answers if you don't). I've been doing this for a while to try and figure out how to relate to other people - not sure if its working or not. Probably not.

[Dale Cruea]

Ok... this sent me to the dictionary.. again...
adjective 1.of or pertaining to space (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/space).

2.existing or occurring in space (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/space); having extension in space (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/space).

Then it sent me back to dictionary for space....
Forget it.

I still don't get it but I do remember that women have it or are better at it than men.
Must be why I don't understand it. :confused:

[Mike Davis NC]

http://www.amazon.com/Dyslexic-Advantage-Unlocking-Hidden-Potential/dp/1594630798/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1320315277&sr=8-4

recent studies in dyslexia have lead to new insights into the mind and how people perceive reality. If spatial relationships are very easy for you to see and manipulate in your mind you are probably somewhat dyslexic. Consider yourself gifted because most people can't envision three dimensional spaces.

Read the book, they explain it much better than I can.

[Dan Hintz]

If spatial relationships are very easy for you to see and manipulate in your mind you are probably somewhat dyslexic. Consider yourself gifted because most people can't envision three dimensional spaces.
Can't speak as to the validity of that claim, but I'm quite dyslexic when it comes to numbers (words, for whatever reason, pose no problems for me... though my fingers can type some interesting words as they get ahead of each other). Posed a real problem during high school, especially, until I figured out what was going on. Took me a while to retrain how I look at problems, and it still bites me from time to time. And I'm quite fluent in "3D" imagery in the ol' noggin'.

[Rich Engelhardt]

My wife is better at anything than I am....

I learned - once I said "I do", it comes with the clause , "But - she does it better".

[Belinda Barfield]

I have a pretty good ability to create a picture of something in my mind and transform that into reality - whether reality is a rough drawing (disclaimer: definitely NOT an artist this is more like being able to do an orthographic projection of geometric shape) or a physical object. Swmbo finds that skill completely baffling and apparently doesn't see "pictures" in her head. OTOH she can walk into a room and give the rough dimensions way more accurately than I can and tell if object (couch/chair/etc...) will properly fit while I'm still building the cardboard model :) This transforms into me going "see I'm going to build this with the doohickey here and the doodlebob over there curving back into the watchamacalit" and getting back a blank stare, and the reverse of "that will never fit" - fits fine. On the surface of it these seem like very closely related skills but turns out they aren't interchangeable.


The SO can has the same ability as you, Ryan. I, on the other hand, have all these ideas in my head but have no ability to communicate them to someone else other than verbally. Anytime I move I have the furniture arranged in my head from the moment I first see the new place. I have rejected places based solely on the fact that I didn't like the way the furniture fit the space. Furniture comes off the truck and goes to its desinated spot and doesn't get moved again. I never rearrange furniture for some reason, I guess because I am very routine oriented and dramatic change messes up my world. I'm also a "stacker" or "piler" on my desk at work. I know what is in each pile and can easily find anything anyone asks me for or about. The SO (we work together literally in the same office) has to have post it notes on a bulletin board or everything on the big white board in order to keep up with things. He's very visual.

This is a very interesting thread. I guess it is true that my reality is very different from anyone else's reality, and I hadn't really given that a lot of thought in a while. (I thought about it in the past when I was wondering if there is such a thing as reality beyond what I see. I bet the wall that I think is behind me right now doesn't exist unless I turn around and look at it. :D) I don't think of my self as self centered, but I guess I do live in a pretty me centric world. :o:)

[Larry Browning]

(I thought about it in the past when I was wondering if there is such a thing as reality beyond what I see. I bet the wall that I think is behind me right now doesn't exist unless I turn around and look at it. :D)
I had those same discussions while in college in the 60s. (Usually after smoking something)

[Kevin W Johnson]

I can pack boxes and trucks no nobodies business. However, my wife has trouble sizing up what bowl she needs when cooking or putting away left overs.

[Belinda Barfield]

I can pack boxes and trucks no nobodies business. However, my wife has trouble sizing up what bowl she needs when cooking or putting away left overs.

I bet what happens to me also happens to your wife . . . I start with one size bowl or pot and whatever I'm preparing just grows. LOL.

[Brian Vaughn]

I think we've actually brought up two topics here, both of which merit a discussion. First of all, there's 2-D visualization. This, to me, is what makes someone a good Tetris player. It's also what's involved with the dog-and-leash problem as mentioned earlier. And to me, to some extent, that's what's involved with packing a truck as well. It's 3-D, yes, but when you think about it, really it's just a series of planes, and you're trying to complete a plane before it's inaccessible.

On the other hand, being able to visualize a 3-D object, rotate it in your mind, and be able to tell if it's the same as another object which is in a different orientation is a totally different skillset.

Then again, its yet another skill to be able to turn something that's in your head, even if you have a perfect visualization of it, into something tangible. People like Michaelangelo, who said that he just removed everything that wasn't what he was carving, have this skill.

Personally, I'm good at the first two, but lack the ability to make more complex, carved objects. I can visualize a table, or an armoir, from any angle, I can tell you how the boards are going to come together, but ask be to carve one of those faces on a walking stick, and you're probably going to end up without a walking stick at all.

My SO, on the other hand, has very little concept of being able to visualize like that. She finds if things work by brute force, trying different configurations until something works correctly. It's why I always load up the cart when we're checking out at the grocery store. Where this really showed up was when she asked to make an end table for a chair we have, with my help. I asked her to make a drawing of what she wanted, and she drew an overhead view and a side view, but when I asked about how the hardware would be placed, how the top would sit on the legs, how the pieces of skirting would be situated, and I got a clueless look back. And even after I helped her through that, the dimensions were odd-looking (It's a bit skinny) once she got done. But because she couldn't visualize it full-sized, and in place, she really wasn't ready for how it looked.
On the other hand, I can't look at a paint swatch and picture a room in that color, nor can I pick which colors look good together based on scraps of fabric, but she's great at that...

Belinda, I'm a lot like you, I work out of stacks, and know where everything is. Where I run into trouble is that my management feels that a clean desk "looks better" and therefore I periodically have to do a big cleanup....which means for the next couple of weeks, I'm lost. I put it away neatly, sure, but I knew which stack a certain piece of paper was in...I don't know what file folder I decided it belonged in as I was cleaning up.

[Belinda Barfield]

Belinda, I'm a lot like you, I work out of stacks, and know where everything is. Where I run into trouble is that my management feels that a clean desk "looks better" and therefore I periodically have to do a big cleanup....which means for the next couple of weeks, I'm lost. I put it away neatly, sure, but I knew which stack a certain piece of paper was in...I don't know what file folder I decided it belonged in as I was cleaning up.

Yeah, most management does.

[Chuck Wintle]

I am curious as to what particular observation at the grocery store "spurred" this question in the first place?
Larry,

My question was spurred by simply observing how people unload their grocery cart items at the checkout counter. And rather than calling it spatial reasoning it is more like visual thinking after I read a biot more on the subject. It goes like this...some shoppers can lift and place item from their cart with a high degree of accuracy with most items finding a spot that fits. This means that a look on the checkout counter moving belt will produce a need to find an item that fit the available spaces. and so on. This is the top echelon. The next group will grab some items first and then try to fit them randomly into the space available. lastly are those who seem to grab any item and try to fit it regardless of the space available. mind you these observations are completely unscientific.

[Larry Browning]

Larry,

My question was spurred by simply observing how people unload their grocery cart items at the checkout counter. And rather than calling it spatial reasoning it is more like visual thinking after I read a biot more on the subject. It goes like this...some shoppers can lift and place item from their cart with a high degree of accuracy with most items finding a spot that fits. This means that a look on the checkout counter moving belt will produce a need to find an item that fit the available spaces. and so on. This is the top echelon. The next group will grab some items first and then try to fit them randomly into the space available. lastly are those who seem to grab any item and try to fit it regardless of the space available. mind you these observations are completely unscientific.
Now this seems like a whole different question. For me, unloading my shopping basket onto the conveyer belt really has nothing to do with fitting as much as I can into the available space. My thought process revolves around what things will be bagged together. For instance, I want all the stuff that will go in the refrigerator in the same bag(s), all the stuff that will go to the bathroom in one bag, etc. So, cramming as much stuff as possible on the check out counter is of no concern at all to me.
I might actually fall into that last group you describe. Except that my selection process has nothing to do with what will or will not fit in the available space. If it won't fit I will wait until the other stuff move up to make space and continue from there.

[Mike Davis NC]

That kind of sorting is more left brain, list, organizing type of thinking. Not so much spatial at all.

I try to sort my goods like that too so I can bring in a bag here and a bag there instead of having to do it all over again at home.

I hate baggers that randomly put stuff in bags that have no relationship at all.

Why would anybody put peanut butter and soap in the same bag?

Most people are not all one way or the other, there is a mix of left brain-right brain. Except for rare birds like Leonardo da Vinci who was so totally dyslexic that he even wrote and painted everything in mirror image.

[Matt Meiser]

Now this seems like a whole different question. For me, unloading my shopping basket onto the conveyer belt really has nothing to do with fitting as much as I can into the available space. My thought process revolves around what things will be bagged together. For instance, I want all the stuff that will go in the refrigerator in the same bag(s), all the stuff that will go to the bathroom in one bag, etc. So, cramming as much stuff as possible on the check out counter is of no concern at all to me.
I might actually fall into that last group you describe. Except that my selection process has nothing to do with what will or will not fit in the available space. If it won't fit I will wait until the other stuff move up to make space and continue from there.

That's exactly what I do. Every time my wife asks what I'm doing so its obviously the wrong way :)

[Ryan Mooney]

Agreed with Larry et-al on the grocery ordering situation I don't think you can easily extrapolate one "skill set" (obsession? behavior?) from it. I have a slightly more complex sorting algorithm:
- like should mostly go things together (veggies, cans, etc..)
- except when you want heaving things on the bottom (like cans under veggies)
- or there would be cross contamination (no meat in the veggie bag or with the milk/bread, etc..).
This is all due to logical (to me anyway) requirements for where the groceries should end up in the bag, not for any conveyer usage optimization. I have to grit my teeth when I get some clueless bagger putting them in all wrong after I've made it easy for them.

I'm also the weird person at the lunch table who sorts their potato chips from large to small and eats the small ones first so I can enjoy that large perfect chip last.. so.. probably not the best example of normal behavior here :D

I think the visualization and spatial skills are also related to other skills. Interestingly, although I'm a compulsive sorter (keep me busy? Put a bowl of mixed colored rocks in front of me, gotta sort them!) I can't alphabetize worth a darn (maybe if letters were colors or shapes it would work.. hmm..). The SO on the other hand is scary good at alphabetizing or filing type activities. We also disagree on kitchen sorting, I prefer utensils sorted by purpose she prefers by type. I can write prose, she can identify correct grammar and spelling (which I almost totally fail at), etc.. We actually work pretty well together, I come up with the overall picture and she fills in all the issues that I missed :cool:

[Chuck Wintle]

Agreed with Larry et-al on the grocery ordering situation I don't think you can easily extrapolate one "skill set" (obsession? behavior?) from it. I have a slightly more complex sorting algorithm:
:cool:

Yes as I mentioned before it was some unscientific observations but I think it gives a fair glimpse of the mindset of different people.

[Belinda Barfield]

+1 on the sorting groceries. I place them in groups on the belt based on where they go when I get home with them. I live on the third floor, no elevator, so I like to get the cold things up first. If the canned goods and rice sit in the trunk for a couple of hours, no big deal.

Most baggers could not care less about your sorting, they just want to get things in the bags and get through. Just last week I stopped the bagger just before he put a large can of tomoatoes in with the bread. Rare, but it happens.

[Kevin W Johnson]

+1 on the sorting groceries. I place them in groups on the belt based on where they go when I get home with them. I live on the third floor, no elevator, so I like to get the cold things up first. If the canned goods and rice sit in the trunk for a couple of hours, no big deal.

Most baggers could not care less about your sorting, they just want to get things in the bags and get through. Just last week I stopped the bagger just before he put a large can of tomoatoes in with the bread. Rare, but it happens.

Why do the people running checkouts always wanna mash the bread? It's a common problem 'round here anyways.

[Bonnie Campbell]

I've chewed out more than one bagger for smashing my bread. I've asked if THEY like smashed breads and get the story about how their mothers/grandmothers complain too. Hmm, you think they might remember that when cramming four loaves of bread into a bag that comfortably only holds two?