Let me "axe" you a question.......

[Maurice Ungaro]

So, in the trails behind our neighborhood, there a lot of toppled oaks due to erosion. I'm eye-ballin' all this free fire wood, and thinking, I need an axe. I'm looking for advice on style and weight. I'm liking the offerings from Council Tools, particularly since they are an American company. Don't mind paying in $60 range, but I'm going to catch hell if I get real spendy with this tool (rather save that chit for shop toys). I'm pretty sure I don't need a felling axe, maybe more of a limbing/light splitting axe. In short, something gneral purpose. Any suggestions on the type of head and handle length/style would be greatly appreciated. FWIW, I'm not a large guy - about 5' 10" with a 33" sleeve length. Of course if anyone has an older axe for sale that would suit me, I'd certainly entertain that.

[Jim Koepke]

Unless you want to do a lot of upper body development I would suggest a chain saw for cutting to length and a splitting maul for the splitting.

Check your local hardware or borg store to see what they offer.

I have often used a froe to split firewood. The only problem with that is when pieces rive off real nice, I do not want to burn them. A lot of my firewood has been diverted to the shop.

Wedges can also be handy for splitting.

I have an axe that I used to use for splitting, but the maul is a lot easier and usually faster.

Mostly now, the axe is used for splitting off kindling.

Save a big piece of round from the stump of a tree for your splitting platform.

jtk

[Maurice Ungaro]

I have often used a froe to split firewood. The only problem with that is when pieces rive off real nice, I do not want to burn them. A lot of my firewood has been diverted to the shop. jtkJim, I got a chuckle out of that. How many times have we all said, "no, wait....that's too nice to burn, cut, etc.".Good point about the maul.

[David Keller NC]

Interesting - I wasn't aware that there was still an American maker of high-quality axes (and the "forcible entry" tool section was also ver interesting!).

I do a great deal of felling/sawing/splitting & hauling, as my cabinetshop is heated entirely with a woodstove, and it supplies part of my house heat as well. I decided a long time ago not to make the mistake of incorrectly calculating the cost of "free" wood heat, and getting a trailer, hydraulic splitter, etc... I've seen a lot of guys do that - they tell me that they love getting "free heat", then show me their $5000 trailer, and their $4000 20hp hydraulic splitter (not to mention their $30,000 pick-up truck).:D

My objective was to do as much work as efficiently as I could with the minimum amount of investment in large tools. So I have a Stihl chainsaw, and my splitting is done by hand with a splitting maul.

However, I have done a fair amount of hand-tool-only felling & bucking (cutting logs to length), and have some knowledge of historical practices. Contrary to what one might see in a Hollywood "historical" movie, the last time it was common practice to use an axe as the only means of felling a tree was the 17th century before the advent of processes for making large sections of rolled iron & steel. Instead, the almost universal method before chainsaws got portable enough to move in the late 1950's was the combination of a felling axe and a bucking or whip saw. One cut the felling notch in the tree in the direction where you intended to go, and used a 2-man "misery whip" on the back side to complete the drop it.

Once the tree was on the ground, a one or two-man cross-cut bucking saw was used to cut it up into suitable lengths, and then a splitting maul to split off manageable chunks.

If you're interested in doing this process (going without a chainsaw), The Cross-cut Saw Company still sells these tools:

http://www.crosscutsaw.com/1.html

[Jason Coen]

Maurice,

Make a trip over to Pittsboro. Ed has a box of axe heads that need handles, several splitting wedges, froes, and I *think* he may even have a few big crosscut saws.

[Mike Siemsen]

To re-iterate what David said... bucksaw or chainsaw, unles the wood is only 6 inches in diameter, then an axe would work.

[Scott T Smith]

Maurice, +1 on all of the advice regarding using a chainsaw and maul.

If you want to get some hands on experience with how much work bucking with an axe truly is, my farm is about 15 minutes from Cary I have an axe that you can borrow for a week or so. Send me an e-mail in interested.

Scott

[Jason Coen]

And yeah, bucking with an axe just sucks. I had to do it on a few occasions growing up - usually after doing something to get in trouble. I'd only do it again if there were no other option.

[Maurice Ungaro]

David, did you notice that Council Tool is located in NC, about 45 miles east of Fayetteville? Also, thanks for reminding me about a buck saw. For some reason I got blinded by the beauty of a classic axe. Jason, I need to poke around Ed's selection a bit more. Last time I was there, seemed like all the axe heads were broad head/hewing types. ---- Scott, I need to come visit your place anyway, if for nothing else, to take a look at your offerings.

[Jim Matthews]

Best axe I've used, to date.
That includes the Swedish stuff.

Takes a great edge, limbs cleanly and holds up to rough handling.

If you do purchase a chainsaw, at least buy safety chaps (http://www.gemplers.com/product/10213-39/Elvex-Chain-Saw-Safety-Chaps-90-Series?sku=10213-39&src=25SEFGL&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=10213). It takes 4 minutes to desanguinate.

FYI - I crosscut with a chainsaw and split by hand.

[Jim Neeley]

Maurice,

You don't indicate if this is for a few fireplace fires or a regular burn but here in Alaska we have a long heating season and more than a few heat partially or totally by wood.

I agree with David that many spend far too much on trailers and splitters but, that said, it *dioes* make the job a heckuva lot faster and easier and a fair nimber of people buy them. Many, after buying them, realize that while it makes it easier it's still a heck of a lot of work.


One good trick around here is to find someone who owns the splitter, etc., and make them a trade of the use of their splitter for some amount of wood cut and split for them. This one works especially well if you have the chainsaw for cutting and have (or hire) a couple of teenagers to huff the rounds and stack the split wood.

The barter system has its advantages! <g>

[Ryan Mooney]

First, thanks for the pointer to Council Tool - very interesting/useful. I now have a hankering for one of those Hudson Bay axes. When I was a kid I found an old hand forged variant of that style buried in a sand bank (handle was long gone the head was still in fantastic shape) up in the mountains and used it for a number of years as my "carry" axe for backpacking/riding (and I wonder where that ever went as well...).

On to your question. I've done a fair bit of hand work in the past on cutting fire wood/fence logs/etcc (my dad as a neanders neander when it came to this sort of thing so I got to "play" along as the guy on the other side of the saw/limbing boy/etc..). I still prefer an axe for trimming small limbs (up to say 3-4", 6" at the outside) as I'm at least as fast with that as I am with a chainsaw and in my opinion I'm safer with it (ymmv on that safer part just speaking for myself). For this I like a medium weight single bit axe with a relatively thin edge, not quite as thin as a felling axe or you chip/turn the edge on hard knots, but closer to that than a splitting axe or most camp hatchets (double bit axes have their place but if you have to ask you don't want one, learn to use a single bitted axe first - doubles are more than twice as dangerous). You can definitely use a buck saw to cut into lengths but be warned that its still a lot of work (find someone who has one and try it out before committing if you can, you'll definitely get in shape if you go that route nice and quiet though).

For cutting larger pieces (agree with Mike on over about 6") of wood to length an axe is just a non starter for me for a lot of reasons:

You don't have that much time, unless you're retired/unemployed/etc.. and I'm pretty sure you can still find a better way to spend your days :D
It wastes a ton of wood, you loose somewhere around the width of the tree in order to cut the log in half. Yeah you can use the chips for kindling, etc.. but seriously if you're bucking to length where the tree is down that ain't realistically happening.
Sheesh, I mean I LIKE doing things the hard way and uh uh no way man. Just to much work. Maybe I'm just getting old, I'd have done it when I was 20 just to be stubborn. This is from someone who quite literally chipped a ~2x8' chunk of rock hillside out about 2' down with a hammer and rock chisel this summer so I still have some stubborn left.. it just has limits.
If you can wait and look around at estate sales, etc.. odds are you can find a few good axes cheap (they may however need new handles which are getting harder to find, at least good ones). My favorite limbing is an axe of indeterminate age I inherited from my grandpa (modulus a new handle I put on). Its a ~2lb axe and is quite hard making it prone to chipping in the wrong hands, I don't loan that one out :eek:. I'm sure a comparable Iltis Oxhead or an Gransfors Bruks axe would be fantastic (I've never had the pleasure) but imho the main value of a premium axe like that is that it would come pre-sharpened/tuned so you would know what its supposed to be like (as with many tools if you don't know how its supposed to work figuring that out with a mediocre example can be a real challenge). If you have someone local who can help on that front you may do just as well on the used market provided you aren't in a hurry. No idea on the quality of Council Tool but they talk the talk so I'd be tempted to try it and find out at their prices.

For on site cutting of medium stuff (say 4-18") to manageable lengths (depends on size of wood, but say 8' lengths you can skid back to a saw buck and cut up smaller) I actually like a good bow saw. Its not quite as fast as a well tuned buck saw, but its a heck of a lot lighter and easy to carry (I can sling it across my back and still drag three logs). Its also a fair bit cheaper (to start, although sharpening the blades is a non starter on those type for modern saws). A buck saw works great but you gotta learn to sharpen it to keep it running smooth (not hard, just takes time and practice).

If you are inexperienced in cutting the limbs off of a downed tree (not saying you are, but hey free advice is worth what it costs) let me inject a strong word of caution here that regardless of the method used this is probably the most dangerous part of wood gathering especially on uneven ground. There are a couple major things that can go wrong:

Make sure you ALWAYS have a way out if the tree should roll. Take the time to eyeball the situation and see what's holding the big pieces in place. Cut off chunks to remove the danger where possible. Don't get trapped on the downhill side.
Be very aware of what happens when the limb lets go. More than one person has been skewered or slapped hard enough to break bones by a sprung limb that let go when cut free (especially true of limbs trapped under the log). I haven't dealt with a lot of oak in the hoof, but I'd reckon its even more springy and pokey than the softwoods I grew up with and those scared the heck out of me so I'd be extra cautious there.
Cutting limbs with an axe requires care, it can skip and jump right into you if you're swinging it wrong or standing in the wrong place. A chainsaw isn't much better as it can grab small limbs and whip them back into you (which is why I axe all the small stuff first and then chainsaw or bowsaw the bigger pieces - I trust myself more with an axe). Both of these are obviously preventable with care and proper usage but something to be cautious of.
This is just a start, lots of ways to kill, maim or mutilate yourself here :D
Not meaning to be a nervous nelly, but its something you can mess up in a hurry with results that last a lifetime (perhaps even a very foreshortened lifetime). Good luck on the gathering and if you do get a Council Tool axe, let us all know how you like it.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Thanks everyone, the advice is much appreciated. I'm leaning more towards a saw at this point. Possibly a bow, or a Japanese style such a a Silky, or the Anahiki Log Saw available at Highland. I'll say this though, the new Velvicut Hudson Bay axe from Council Tool looks real sweet: http://www.counciltool.com/DisplayCategories.asp?pg=displaycategories&category=77 . Maybe in the future.

[Jim Koepke]

I'll say this though, the new Velvicut Hudson Bay axe from Council Tool looks real sweet: http://www.counciltool.com/DisplayCa...es&category=77 . Maybe in the future.

One thing to consider about an axe is the weight. A light axe is easy to swing, but requires more muscle in the cut. A heavier axe takes a bit more muscle to lift and swing, but that is more than made up for when it meets the wood.

jtk

[Ryan Mooney]

One thing to consider about an axe is the weight. A light axe is easy to swing, but requires more muscle in the cut. A heavier axe takes a bit more muscle to lift and swing, but that is more than made up for when it meets the wood.

jtk

A heavier axe is also generally considered safer for a beginner (as is a sharper axe). It will tend to "stick" in the cut (i.e. not bounce out) and you will also tend to "choke up" on it more naturally (grabbing closer to the head with the forward hand) giving more direct control. Imho its not really a lot more work to swing a heavier axe if you do it right, the hand closest to the head should move towards the head on the upswing and back towards the rear hand on the downswing. This gives you a lot of leverage and control compared to having both hands held closer together (this is also true of sledge hammers, etc.. I see a lot of people working to hard and not getting much done with them).

[Maurice Ungaro]

Ryan,
Great comparison with the sledge. I have a 20# sledge that gets used very infrequently, but when I do use it, that's how I swing it.

Anyway, I spoke with the nice folks at Council Tool, and the CS person was very helpful in giving me pointers, and recommendations on a general purpose axe. I settled on their 3.5 lb Jersey axe, with a curved haft. This will be used for a combination of chopping and splitting. A Japanese 6TPI log saw will do the bucking work. The CS at Council directed me to a couple of their dealers, as the dealers can sell below list (some really do), plus, the dealers out of state won't charge me sales tax. They recomended Highland (but Highland didn't have the Jersey pattern) and Forestry Suppliers in Mississippi - they charged me $18 under list. Not a bad deal.

So, can I use my conventional stones to sharpen this thing?

[Ryan Mooney]

they charged me $18 under list. Not a bad deal.

Nice its cool when folks are helpful like that and that seems like a great price if its a decent axe.


So, can I use my conventional stones to sharpen this thing?

Yes.. Generally a good axe is just a smidge hard for most files to effectively sharpen (at least without the file suffering unduly, otoh for hardware store axes a file works just fine). I wouldn't get carried away on the grits here, yeah yeah shaving sharp is nice but functionally sharp is functionally equivalent for this type of work.

I have a medium/coarse "no lube" stone I use dry on my axes (I occasionally pour some water on a flat piece of concrete and scrub the stone clean) - it might be happier with a little water on it, but the water i carry is for drinking :D and this works fine for me. I mostly only use the medium side unless I've gotten a chip when I switch to the coarse side to reshape. I have no idea on the grits had it since forever.. guessing maybe 200/400 ish.. the medium side could maybe be a little finer, but not a lot (say maybe up to 600 would be ok). You get to fine you spend all your time noodling with the stones and not enough time chopping.

While its nice to have a smallish stone to carry with you to touch up the edge as you go, its certainly not necessary. If you're only doing a little of this and that along the trail sharpening at the end of the day (or end of the week :rolleyes:) is generally more than sufficient.