Newbie - Learning experience / Tools to see at the WW show in Denver

[Doug Herzberg]

I originally wanted to ask for advice on tools to look at or buy at the WW show in Denver next month. I'm just getting into turning, although I've had an inexpensive lathe around the shop for a long time. Thanks to those who already helped with their comments on the lathes I'm looking at. You'll be happy to know the on/off switch on my current lathe is going, so I now have an excuse to buy the Grizzly GO698. I plan to get the Grizzly H6267 chuck with the lathe, along with the extra jaws they offer.

Right now I have the inexpensive spindle turning chisel set that came with my lathe and some faceplates that go up to 8". The four jaw, noncentering chuck will not fit the new lathe. I recently learned how much better my chisels work when I grind them from time to time. Last year at the WW show I picked up a 1/2" bowl gouge and a big swan neck tool that holds a round cutter and a straight cutter, both from Woodline. I've seen several threads on SMC about BB chisels from PSI, and those seem to be in my price range. I realized I only have one scraper in the entire set, a 1/2" round nose.

I want to learn about bowl and HF turning. I know I don't deserve the lathe I'm buying, but I hope to get good enough to justify having it in my shop. Question is, where should I go from here?

Part Two: As I was thinking about this, I realized I have never used the swan neck tool I got last year. I've been busy with other things. I had a chunk of cottonwood on the lathe that I thought I had turned into what you all call a funnel. Figured I couldn't do any harm, so I put the round scraper on and started working on the walls of the bowl. The profile I have right now is the result of 1. where the wood wanted to go, 2. where the chisels went whether I wanted them to or not, and 3. my attempts to fix #2. With the flaws in the wood, I'm afraid to go much thinner on the walls. It's been spinning at about 1560 and I've fixed some cracks that showed up with CA. I thought I was going to have to try to fashion a foot from the tenon, but as it turns out I have about 1/2" to go before I see daylight through the bottom, except for what may come through the natural crack.

This started out as my first attempt at a natural rim. That quickly passed and it turned into a strange bowl with a natural edged hole in the side, then another hole as a result of flaws in the wood. The distance from the top of the natural hole to the rim is also the result of a slip with a chisel.

I'm calling myself a newbie, even though I've referred to myself elsewhere on SMC as a geezer, in the hope you'll go easy on me. I've been trying to make things other than spindles off and on for a year or two. I understand your advice may be "Unplug that lathe, don't send your money to Grizzly, and 'Why would you want to go to the WW show?'" or "You just can't teach art. Better you should take a cooking class."

Seriously: Scrapers, larger and smaller bowl gouges, steady rests large and small, cool curved tool rest, Cole type chuck, books on design and technique, stuff I don't know about? If you think I should try to save this bowl from the woodstove, or can help me identify and avoid a problem in future, I'll appreciate your advice on that, too. Thanks in advance.

I have to say I don't always understand all your design comments on other posts. Maybe I need a book. I've thought about the local turner's club, but those guys are really good and I might feel out of place.



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I only sanded to 100 and then put some Danish oil on for those of you who want to make fun of cottonwood. I already take a lot of crap about that from my real woodworker friends. I like the color variations and grain patterns I get. This was a crotch I cut out about two years ago and forgot to seal the ends. I knew I might have problems when I started. I have some really big chunks of green cottonwood, about 3 tons of Black Walnut already milled to 12/4 or thinner, and several small chunks of various hardwoods I've been getting from a local tree service.

[Jim Burr]

Everyone has to start somewhere Doug...those guys in the local turning club started at the bottom too! Nice form you have going, but! the tenon looks to long and the bottom of the form is floating...ripe for a failure. You may want to reverse the piece, trim down the tenon so the face of the chuck is flat against the bottom of the work. One of the best pieces of cottonwood I've seen in a while!

[Roger Chandler]

Doug,

What ever you do...........Make sure and go to the woodturners club! There is no forum that can cause you to learn what you will in tool presentation and sharpening like you will get when standing beside a mentor who is showing you first hand! You will never regret it if you do, but you will spend a lot of months in frustration if you don't!!!

As for getting the G0698...........geez...........mine has been great and it is a featured lathe that will help you to get good in a way that a cheapo lathe can't. If you think you are serious about turning..........go for it!

[Al Wasser]

I can't tell what kind of chuck you have but it looks like nothing I've seen before so a good chuck may be in your future. Yes go to the club, make friends, ask questions, find a mentor or 2 and you will enjoy turning more and learn faster.

[Doug Wolf]

Doug,

It looks like you have a metal lathe 4 jawed chuck on your tube lathe, which is what I started on 5 years ago. I joined the local club and am now turning on a Powermatic 3520b.

You can't go wrong at least going to a meeting at your local club or come down to Pueblo and attend our meeting. You will gain so much more and advance your skills so much faster than you will struggling along by yourself.

[Doug Herzberg]

[QUOTE=Doug Wolf;1798123]Doug,

It looks like you have a metal lathe 4 jawed chuck on your tube lathe, which is what I started on 5 years ago.

Doug,

The chuck I have is similar to this one http://www.grizzly.com/products/4-Jaw-Chuck/G1082. I've seen the type advertised for square and odd shaped stock. It was in my father's shop when he passed and it fits my spindle, so I brought it home. It's the only chuck I have and before I had it, I didn't know what a lathe chuck was. I do plan to get a better chuck when I get a better lathe, just can't see spending more on this one. It is a tube style DuraCraft or some such and it has been fine until I got interested in bigger stuff.

Regarding clubs, I'm not much of a joiner, but I did check out the local one in Manitou. I plan to go to their November meeting and see what it's about. They do have some nice looking stuff in their photo gallery.

I've always enjoyed Pueblo and I'd love to stop by your club sometime. Is there a website? When and where do you meet?

[Doug Herzberg]

Everyone has to start somewhere Doug...those guys in the local turning club started at the bottom too! Nice form you have going, but! the tenon looks to long and the bottom of the form is floating...ripe for a failure. You may want to reverse the piece, trim down the tenon so the face of the chuck is flat against the bottom of the work. One of the best pieces of cottonwood I've seen in a while!

Thanks for the advice, Jim. It did slip once, but I caught it before anything worse happens. It's the first time I've used the chuck with the jaws turned this way and I'm just figuring it out as I go. As for the tenon not being flat, my parting tool is one of those that needs some grinding. It's the outside edge of the log that is causing it to not bottom out.

Glad someone else likes cottonwood.

[Doug Herzberg]

Doug,
As for getting the G0698...........geez...........mine has been great and it is a featured lathe that will help you to get good in a way that a cheapo lathe can't. If you think you are serious about turning..........go for it!

Roger, you were one of those who was so helpful in my decision to go with the GO698. I am at least a little interested in turning, I know my lathe is inadequate, and I kind of see lathes like motorcycles - it's pointless to get one too small because you'll always be wanting the next bigger one. I don't see myself turning bowls or forms for any reason other than my own pleasure, but I do need a lathe occasionally and I'm not going to get much better with the one I have. I hope that doesn't sound frivolous and I don't mean to blame the tool, but sometimes it is the tool. I've been woodworking now for over 30 years, for fun and profit. I've never bought a really nice piece of large equipment brand new and the new tools I have bought have been good, not great, and eventually have disappointed me.

I'm retired now and I have more time to putter with things like lathes, and my flat woodworking shop is pretty much equipped the way I want it, with the exception of a decent bandsaw, which I'm going to buy, and a good bench, which I'm going to make. I had some hail damage to my work truck awhile ago and I think a lathe and a bandsaw are a much better use of that insurance money.

Everyone says go to a club, so I will. I'm sure I'll benefit. It beats destroying a lot of nice wood I've collected by jumping in before I know what I'm doing.

You need to go get that pear tree across the street, then bundle up for the night. You Virginians aren't used to that stuff this early, are you?

[Doug Herzberg]

I can't tell what kind of chuck you have but it looks like nothing I've seen before so a good chuck may be in your future. Yes go to the club, make friends, ask questions, find a mentor or 2 and you will enjoy turning more and learn faster.

Thanks Al. I agree I need a good chuck. I have a couple of mentors, but a club sounds like a good idea.

[Steve Vaughan]

Oh, you're gonna be fine. Just fine. You need to go to that woodworking show, you'll be inspired and you'll learn a ton. You need to go to that local woodturning club, you'll inspired and you'll learn a ton. I love your bowl. Soon you'll be set up to get it turned around and make a really nice foot on that thing. Beautiful color and grain. Be sure to date that thing! Nice work. Tube lathe is where I started too and lots of us did. Stay with it, you're gonna do just fine!

[Roger Chandler]

Doug,

If you do go with the G0698, you will join a number of others who are listed in our Grizzly Green Monster Group [GGMG] on the "community" section of this forum...........just click on community, click on groups and you will see it...........we welcome you to join in this kind of sub-forum group that talks about all things "Grizzly Green." We invite you to post some pics of your work also!

[David E Keller]

Nothing wrong with cottonwood, Doug... It can be beautiful as you've nicely shown. I've never been to a club meeting, but it sounds like good advice. If you're the DVD watching type, you can pick up a lot by watching them. Clewes and Mahoney are among my favorites.I'd recommend taking your time in acquiring new tools... I've got a number of 'impulse tools' that seem to spend little time in my hands. Get a good sharpening setup and learn to sharpen your tools... That may be the most important part of the whole thing. The wolverine setup with the varigrind(both from Oneway) are indispensable parts of my sharpening routine.The grizzly chuck has served me well... I've got several of them, and I use them constantly.Looking forward to seeing that piece of cottonwood at the finish line!

[Scott Hackler]

Doug, I would agree that one of your first purchases needs to be a wood turning chuck. That metal lathe chuck is an accident waiting to happen, IMO. Point being, your metal chuck is only holding 1/4-1/2 of the surface of the tenon. A wood turning chuck is designed (using the proper jaws) to grab 90% or more of the outside of the tenon.

Also, regarding the tenon.... typically the tenon is turned to 3/8" -1/2" long and the jaws of the chuck touch the bottom of the bowl, not the bottom of the tenon.

Welcome to the madness! :)

[Bernie Weishapl]

Doug not a thing wrong with Cottonwood. That is by far our most common tree here on the plains. You have showed it off well. I have to agree a metal chuck is nice for small ornaments, mini birdhouses, etc. Bob Rosand uses one but not on bowls, HF's, platters, etc. I definitely would advise joining a club if you can. I don't have anything close so rely on DVD's like Mahoney's, Raffan's, Grumbines, and a great book and DVD for beginners is by Keith Rowley Woodturning a Foundation Course. I also attend demo's when I can. Excellent starter book IMHO.

[Doug Herzberg]

Thanks, Steve, for the encouragement. I've been going to the show two years running with one of my real woodworker buddies. This year, I'm trying to prepare a little so I can recognize a bargain when I see it. The turner's club displays there are awesome, as are the build your own workbench class displays from Arapahoe Community college. I'll spend some time looking at sharpening systems before I go, as well.

[John Keeton]

Doug, depending on what you want from woodturning, I would suggest to you that safety, form, and then tool technique are the three main categories on which to concentrate - in that order.

Regarding safety, and aside from the obvious of safety glasses and faceshield, you are making strides in that area with a good chuck and the possibility of a good sharpening system. Sharp tools are much safer than are dull tools.

Form overrides everything in turning - good wood, great ideas, good toolwork, fancy pyro work - all of that stuff is great. But, not if the result is an object with poor form. You indicate you "don't always understand all your design comments on other posts" and I would suggest to you that you get a copy of Richard Raffan's book - The Art of Turned Bowls. It is a very good treatise on form, and may help you with that aspect of turning.

Tool technique comes last IMO, as much of the "form" issue also has to do with where "you take the tool" and that has to do with form. I see many folks fighting with tool technique trying to get a good transition in the bottom of a bowl that has a near 90* transition. In reality, if the bowl had a nice, flowing curve on the inside, the tool technique would come much easier. If you understand what the form should be, then it is much easier to understand the hows and whys of tool technique that are used to get the form.

Welcome to the round side - your woodworking life will never be the same!

[Doug Herzberg]

Thanks for the advice and book recommendation. I've never considered myself an artsy person. I look at designs I like without always understanding why, then amalgamate to come up with something that, while not original, is usually different that a straight copy. Not always better, but different. I always have fun along the way, which IMHO it the whole reason for having a shop.

I've been looking at sharpening systems and am suffering from sticker shock. I have an old bench grinder in good shape, but it sits in the barn and mostly gets used to sharpen lawn mower blades. I have seen the Wolverine Vari-Grind demonstrated, but at the time I didn't know if they were new on the block or well accepted and used in the turning community. I've been looking at one of those combo high speed/low speed grinders with the big wet wheel for some time now for uses other than turning tools, but it appears that the Wolverine system is designed for a regular grinder. I'll look for some threads on the subject before I start asking for advice that may already be out there.

[Doug Herzberg]

I would suggest to you that you get a copy of Richard Raffan's book - The Art of Turned Bowls. It is a very good treatise on form, and may help you with that aspect of turning.

Thanks, John. I looked at it and it's in my cart at Amazon. It didn't look like it covered HF. Is there something else I should read to learn about that?

[John Keeton]

Doug, first on the sharpening system. The Wolverine is probably the most widely used system, and most folks prefer the original jig vs. the newer Vari-Grind II. Most folks end up with the Woodcraft slow speed grinder, unless they already have an 8" grinder. A 6" will work, but not as well. The slow speed is not critical with HSS tools.

Raffan's book does not cover hollow forms. There are others, I believe, that do. However, curves are curves, and proportions are proportions - whether applied to an open form (bowl) semi-closed form (rim rolls in on a bowl) or on a closed form, which would include a HF. So, if you develop some knowledge of the various shapes/curves (hemispherical, parabolic, catenary, ogee, etc.) and an understanding of the "rule of thirds", hollow forms are just a continuation of the same concept.

I would also suggest that you study, at length, the website of now deceased Russ Fairfield http://www.woodturnerruss.com/Index.html It is a treasure trove of information.

[Doug Herzberg]

Raffan's book does not cover hollow forms. There are others, I believe, that do. However, curves are curves, and proportions are proportions - whether applied to an open form (bowl) semi-closed form (rim rolls in on a bowl) or on a closed form, which would include a HF. So, if you develop some knowledge of the various shapes/curves (hemispherical, parabolic, catenary, ogee, etc.) and an understanding of the "rule of thirds", hollow forms are just a continuation of the same concept.

I would also suggest that you study, at length, the website of now deceased Russ Fairfield http://www.woodturnerruss.com/Index.html It is a treasure trove of information.

John, I'm learning just from your posts. The shapes sound like calculus class and the rule of thirds reminds me of my amateur photographer days. Thanks for taking your time and thanks for the link.

[Doug Wolf]

Doug,

We meet the second Wednesday of the month. Here's a link to our web page.

http://www.pueblowoodturners.org/

[Doug Herzberg]

Doug,

We meet the second Wednesday of the month. Here's a link to our web page.

http://www.pueblowoodturners.org/

Thanks, Doug. I have that date open (love retirement) so if I can remember (hate old age), I may bop down, weather permitting.