Questions on Homebrew "Danish Oil" for Cherry Cradle

[Dan Spangenberg]

I am just about to start finishing a custom shaker style cherry cradle that I have made, and am looking to clarify some of the info on home-brew Danish oil/varnish. It is a beautiful piece that has taken a ton of time and I really don't want to shortcut or screw up the finish. I would like a timeless finish for a heirloom classic piece.

Goal:
I am pretty sure I want a "touchable" finish meaning one that is soft, natural and feels hand rubbed, where you can feel the wood, rather than something that has a coating over it. I prefer a satin or slight lustre rather than a gloss or semi.

History:
In former years back in the 70's I did quite a bit of woodwork and in those days finishes seemed simple. :-)
Watco Danish Oil was the go to finish back then unless you wanted something sealed, in which case I used lacquer. 90% of my work was Watco, we bought it in 5 gallon cans! For over 30 years I have thought of Watco as only an oil, I never thought or considered that it has varnish in it!
We would flood coat to saturation for a few hours. Wipe off and repeat the same the next day (or even later same day) with steel wool. Any residual dried oil was easily wet rubbed out with steel wool. It was pretty hard to screw up using Watco. Now that I been educated I realize that it was the varnish that was drying on the surface.
All in all I loved the finish, soft and supple. But it almost always required reapplication over the years to keep a piece looking good. Also I never felt like I was getting much build...the projects never felt "coated". Only now did I learn that Watco is around 15% solids.


So for my cherry cradle I initially figured I would use Watco. I perused this phenomenal forum and got educated quickly on what Watco was and more importantly what it wasn't. So rather than use Watco, I am now considering a home-brew oil/varnish finish, but am concerned about a few things. I have searched the forum high and low and read a thousand posts, but can't seem to find what I am looking for.

Initial Recipe:
Home-Brew Formula: I am planning on using the 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 recipe:

1 part: 100% Turpentine
1 part: Ace Spar Varnish (green Can)
1 part: BLO or Tung Oil (WoodCraft Brand)
or a 50/50% mix of both oils.

I have read all the tips on Russ Fairfield's finishing secrets site http://www.woodturnerruss.com/FinishingSecrets.html
(http://www.woodturnerruss.com/FinishingSecrets.html)What a great resource!

Questions/Concerns:

1) Russ mainly uses only Tung Oil instead of BLO. Some other places I have read that a 50/50 mix of Tung/BLO will reap some of the benefits of Tung, without the downsides.

Is there a perceptible difference using some Tung oil or should I just stick to BLO for the 1/3 oil portion?
If I do use a 50/50 mix of Tung/BLO, is it necessary or prudent to use some Japan Drier?
I would like to be able to re-coat within 24 hours (less if possible).
I do live in a relatively dry climate, so this may also help re-coat time.

2) Russ's site talks about a technique to avoid the splotches and over saturation/darkening on that can occur on end grain and some flat grain.
He recommends a initial application of Deft lacquer to seal the pores, then immediately applying the home-brew oil/varnish.

This method is described here: http://www.woodturnerruss.com/FSOriginal8.html


Is this a good method that I should consider?
It seems mightily strange to be rubbing lacquer onto bare wood, then applying oil/varnish. My learning was that lacquer is thinned with lacquer thinner so I never thought it would be compatible with a mineral spirits/turpentine product. But I am a rookie!
I also read a few posts that talked about using a furniture wax as a first coat. Is this used to also eliminate splotches and darkening? Any merit to this?

3) Will the home-brew mix apply or react in a similar way as Watco? I am concerned that with the much higher solid content, I will have to be much more careful. With Watco it was dang hard to screw up, it could always be recovered.

4) After 3 or 4 applications of the home-brew, will I see a perceptible build compared to Watco? I am not really looking for a coating, but do realize I want something more than just Watco. I guess just knowing that it is 33% varnish vs maybe 5%-10% or so in a Watco, makes me wonder if I am going to end up with a coating.

5) Yellowing. Ideally I would prefer no yellowing (who doesn't??) I am OK with the natural cherry "suntan" or darkening that will invariably occur, I just don't want something that will impart a yellowish tinge. Will Ace Spar Varnish yellow?


I appreciate all comments / suggestions. I really respect the wealth of knowledge and experience here!

Thanks!
Dan

[Charlie Jones]

Here's my method: I use 50 percent or less spar varnish, 10 percent BLO and the rest mineral spirits. Use a little more mineral spirits for each coat. Apply and let set 30 minutes or LESS.
Rub out hard with 0000 steel wool. Apply one coat every 24 hours until you get the glow you like. the result will be smooth as a baby's butt and look wonderful. You can use poly for the
varnish if you like but he spar will help darken the cherry.

[Howard Acheson]

The standard mixture for an oil/varnish mixture is equal parts of boiled linseed oil or pure, real tung oil, oil based varnish or poly varnish and mineral spirits. It will be essentially identical to Watco as far as application but will be more durable because of the higher varnish content. You don't want to apply more than two coats or you will end up with a gummy, soft finish. Two coats are plenty for small amount of abuse that a cradle will get.

I recommend the BLO rather than the tung oil as the tung oil has an odor that some do not like. But it will be somewhat more amber than the tung oil. Avoid turpentine as it is a very variable product. It may leave some toxic residue after the turpentine evaporates and has a strong, long lasting odor. Finally, use any oil based varnish or poly varnish you have or like. Once it is highly thinned there is no real difference between manufacturers.

The process is to apply a heavy coat of the mixture, let it set for 15-30 minutes and then wipe dry. Let it dry overnight and then apply another coat the same way. If you want, apply the second coat with 4/0 steel wool rubbing in the direction of the grain. Let set for 15-30 minutes and lightly wipe dry. This will produce a smoother finish but you will lose some of the "feel" of the wood. All oil based varnishes impart an amber cast but the main amber contributor is the oil you use. BLO is somewhat more amber than tung oil but both impart and amber color. Amber is good on cherry projects. It's the amber that causes the grain figure to "pop".

As always, test out you complete finishing plans on scrap before committing to your real project.

Finally, you may want to read the following regarding the new government regulations for items manufactured for use by children 12 old or younger. To comply an item must be certified by a third independent agency as to its safety. http://www.cpsc.gov/about/CPSIA/smbus/manufacturers.html

[Dan Spangenberg]

This info is great! So what about my concern over the splotches and end grain darkening?

Is using a pre-sealer such as lacquer feasible or is it more trouble than it is worth?

Maybe I am overly concerned about this and should just let it go and use the process you both describe.

Thanks for the information!

[Scott Holmes]

Pre-stain conditioner or pre-sealer will defeat the purpose of an "in-the-wood" oil/varnish blend. The finish will not be able to penetrate the wood and will be mostly wiped off after 15 minutes or so. I would go a bit more varnish and a bit less oil in the blend for a cradle. Say 45% varnish, 25% oil and 30% mineral spirits. This will give you a bit more protection than the Watco and should not need to be refreshed as often.

[Howard Acheson]

As Scott said, sealing the wood with a film finish like lacquer or a pre-stain conditioner will defeat the purpose of an in-the-wood finish like an oil/varnish mixture.

As far as end grain darkening, that is generally an issue only when applying a dark stain. You can easily minimize any darkening by sanding the end grain with one grit finer than the sandpaper you used on the long grain surfaces. Sand until you arm feels like it will fall off--seriously. This will minimize the absorption or the oil and keep the color similar to the other surfaces.

As I said before, test your finishing plans and/or options on scrap. You will answer your own questions that way and learn how to best apply your finish. No tears.

[Bob Wingard]

If you put anything containing BLO on Cherry ... it will, most likely blotch. The only good thing about it, is that, as Cherry ages, it darkens, and the blotching is less visible. I use either a conditioner or a blotch control, followed by dye, if desired, and top coated with a mixture of about 30% varnish and 70% VM&P Naptha. After a few coats, I increase the varnish to more like 50%-60%. The ultra thin early coats reduces surface tension of the varnish, allowing it to carry deeper into the pores, displacing any air molecules in there, so you don't get bubbles trapped in the finish. This is much more necessary in open grained woods, but I like it so much, I've gotten to where I use it all the time. All of this is easily applied with a simple rag ... I can't remember the last time I got out the expensive brushes to apply varnish.

[Dan Spangenberg]

If you put anything containing BLO on Cherry ... it will, most likely blotch. The only good thing about it, is that, as Cherry ages, it darkens, and the blotching is less visible. I use either a conditioner or a blotch control, followed by dye, if desired, and top coated with a mixture of about 30% varnish and 70% VM&P Naptha. After a few coats, I increase the varnish to more like 50%-60%. The ultra thin early coats reduces surface tension of the varnish, allowing it to carry deeper into the pores, displacing any air molecules in there, so you don't get bubbles trapped in the finish. This is much more necessary in open grained woods, but I like it so much, I've gotten to where I use it all the time. All of this is easily applied with a simple rag ... I can't remember the last time I got out the expensive brushes to apply varnish.This is an interesting method I will have to test.

So I want to make sure I understand. So you do not use BLO at all on cherry, correct?
What am I missing by not using BLO...other than blotches? :-)
Will I still get the same depth of grain look without it?
Just wondering the purpose of BLO or Tung Oil.

I love the aged, darkened cherry look, so I am pre-darkening in the sun and hope to not have to use a dye. But I suppose I could "help" the process along with a slight dye. Any recommendations on a good dye?

What type of conditioner do you use? Is there something that is specifically called "blotch control"?

Thanks for all the great info!

[Dan Spangenberg]

Well I just did a search on the forum for "cherry blotch" and got a wealth of information! I didn't realize that there was so much passion for finishing cherry! You could give some of the political discussions a run for their money! :-)

It seems like there are two basic philosophies on cherry.

#1 - Use a conditioner or blotch control to seal and control the amount of absorption and then use a dye/toner/stain and a topcoat to get to the final desired color. This seems to almost guarantee good results, getting the desired color without having to worry about blotches. Also great for matching an existing piece.

#2 - Leave the cherry natural as it was intended, and rely on time to bring out the best color in the wood (or accelerate it a bit with the sun)

I am leaning to #2 for my cradle. I don't have much experience with dyes and I really want this piece to have it's own personality, that is one of the reasons I chose cherry.

So my choices based on the comments are:

Use a varnish with some BLO - less than the typical equal parts home-brew recipe.
Scott recommends 25% BLO
Charlie recommends even less at 10%
Bob recommends no BLO.

So I assume that the chance of noticeable blotching goes down as the % of BLO goes down...correct? I am not saying BLO causes splotching, but just that it may show some with BLO.
I am wondering if the final look will be impacted much if I use very little or no BLO at all.

I will do some tests, but the tests wont tell me how it will look once aged for a year or 2. If I finished 3 pieces 3 separate ways and came back in a year, it would be easy to pick the one that looks the best. :-)

Once again...thanks for your insight and knowledge and your willingness to share!

[Bob Wingard]

Cherry is one of those woods where even a coat of oil based varnish can cause blotches. If I was going to use an oil based varnish, I would preface it with a coat of SOME kind of conditioner. The Minwax version works in lieu of something better. If you notice the instructions on the Minwax can, they say to be sure to top coat within a specific time frame. That is due to the fact that two things happen to Minwax Conditioner ... it will evaporate if not sealed in ... it will dissipate into the piece, defeating it's own purpose. All it does is form a temporary barrier to prevent the deep absorption of whatever you put on top of it ... then ... over time, it dissipates into the piece and,for all practical purposes, goes away. It's job was to sit just below the surface, and prevent the absorption of any kind of oil that would make splotches.

Many folks here and in other forums consider the staining or dyeing of Cherry to be a capital offense ... I see Cherry as simply another medium that I can shape/form/color as I see fit. Cherry darkens with age ... BIG DEAL ... that means I'm not allowed to like the color of Cherry a little more red or brown than Mother Nature will eventually make it ??? Walnut tends to lighten & fade over time, so are we supposed to live with that fact ?? or can we color it to out liking ??? There is nothing sacred about coloring Cherry, and I am beginning to believe most of the naysayers are simply afraid of the process and have either not tried it or tried it and failed, so now it's taboo. I've seen postings here where the writers have actually boasted about cutting out or hiding Cherry's sapwood ... THAT, to me is a sure sign of not knowing how to deal with it.

[Dan Spangenberg]

Good points Bob, I did see very polarized opinions on cherry! I am not that set that I wouldn't consider conditioner/dye on my cherry project.
I have found that there are very few absolutes in this world, and I try to learn something new every day!

So if Minwax is a basic, entry level conditioner, would Charles Neil Pre-Color Conditioner be one of the better ones?
What other conditioners are commonly used? What do you use?

I know the CN conditioner is water based, so should I be concerned using oil based varnish over it? or is that a non issue if it is totally dry?

If I wanted to replicate aged cherry, can you point me to a brand and color of dye that I could try? I am game to try it on a piece.

Thanks!

[Bob Wingard]

Charles Neil's Blotch Control works BEST with water based finishes, including dyes. Once the desired color is achieved, however, any top coat may be applied. For durability, I like Waterlox ... for ease of application & general good looks, I still prefer nitro lacquer. I have a hard time advising you as to what brand and/or shade of dye to use, as I have a very large inventory from which to pick, and none of them are readily available to the general market ... I retired from a confectionery company and I inherited LOTS of samples of various dyes. I know TransTint is always an excellent choice, and the last time I used their product to color Cherry, I believe I used a TINY amount of Orange and a good bit of Dark Mahogany. Nice thing about dyes is,, you can use a very weak solution, and then apply multiple coats to build up to your color of choice. Dyes will ALWAYS look dull & muddy when dry, so you may need to spritz on a bit of water to evaluate your progress.

[Charlie Jones]

I have never had a problem with blotching using a little (10%) BLO on cherry. The BLO and spar varnish gives a darker color without dying or staining. I use dye a lot but not on cherry. Not because I think there is anything wrong with that but because I love the look of the natural wood. the rubbing out process prevents a lot of problems but requires some time and a lot of
elbow grease.