Decisions to make in building wooden plane - help me navigate down the slippery slope

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

Sorry for such a lengthy post, not sure how else to ask these questions.
I know "which planes should I buy first" has been covered but it seems to depend greatly on what one wants to do. For now I'm focused on making a few tools so I can make a real workbench. Once I have those, my projects - hand tools only - will be something like: more tools, coffee table, hanging tool case, giant dog bed, a couple of bedside tables... with some folk instruments and more tools mixed in. in other words, after the large workbench top in douglas fir most will be hardwood (often hard maple for instruments/tools, not sure what for furniture) and have medium and small sized surfaces. To the degree possible I'll start with rough lumber.


I'm trying to decide how to set up the plane I'm making. As money allows I'll buy more blades and make more, and in the mean time I can make multiple planes with different bed angles, mouth tightness etc. that share blades - a hassle but fine for a little while. I'll just think of all the switching as practice tapping the blades into adjustment.




I have:

Stanley no5
Small Japanese smoother with 1" wide blade edge
18" long stick of a Krenov-style plane that time-shares the 1" Japanese blade. I made it from scrap hard maple and oak as practice the day I ordered a Hock blade, turns out it works great. I have the mouth set very tight for now, bed is 45 deg.
One Hock blade, straight edged 1 3/4" Krenov type.
A chunk of red oak 3x6x24 for various plane bodies and a 1x9x26 piece of ironwood to make soles from.

I'm considering:
Mildly radiusing the blade on the Stanley so I can use it for rough work, widening the mouth on the long, narrow one so it is more of a fore plane, and making a jointer.


For the jointer, making the bed 55 degrees and the mouth tight with adjustable brass piece - not sure about adjustable. HT Gordon also uses a 30 deg and mentions flipping the blade bevel-up and using it as an 85 degree scraper. He also makes one with a 60 degree bed that flips to a 90 degree scraper. I'd ease the corners of the Hock blade.


I can make a 22" jointer and some smaller planes. If I don't just cut one long piece for the jointer and then cut in two lengthwise for the mouth but use two pieces that weren't lined up in the wood I can make it longer. I haven't seen this done, is there a reason I really want the sole and the heel and toe to be cut from one linear piece? It seems jointers are 24 on up.


I'm thinking a razee type plane made Krenov style. Where should the tote be in relation to the blade for a jointer? how close behind or far back? I see some with the handles way back, others right behind the blade. What proportions should the front block be to the rear block? Any suggestions on a more traditional Krenov-style shape vs. razee vs HT Gordon planes? I don't have a preference of my own yet.


I'll also make a dedicated shooting plane, not sure how they should be set up, but seems it should be mid-length sole, wide, flat, smooth side (bottom) precisely perpendicular to sole, open mouth, low angle, bevel up. I'm not sure how to shape this one either. What makes for a comfortable, controllable plane for shooting? Seems a tote rising up at an angle might work.


... after this plane comes the frame saw, then the bench, then another blade and making a coffin smoother or something, and then another, and another...

Thanks!

[Mike Holbrook]

I ran a thread on building planes not long ago. I was interested in incorporating a number of features of other plane styles. I have a Jack, jointer & two smooth planes ( a 45 & 55 ) that I have been working on. I put them on hold for a while because the sand paper I bought to flatten soles was too fine and taking too long to get the job done. I also invested in some more Iwasaki plane floats, I had a few small ones but found that the larger 8" floats were what I needed to get the blade seats flat & uniform. I also picked up an Auriou riffler at the Highland Woodworking sale to get into some hard to reach places with router trails. My planes & totes are Purple Heart which is very hard so you may not need/want the same tools to work the wood you are using. I have the Jack working quite well and the others I am still making some mods to. I will try to post some pictures later. I am waiting on kits for a Bow Saw & Spokeshave that Glenn at Wood Joy is putting together for me.

I had quite a few people suggest I not build my planes at higher bed angles. Guys like Gordon work some very hard gnarly woods native to their areas that you probably will not deal with. The fun of building your own plane is you can go with any shape you want.

[Mark Baldwin III]

For the handle on your jointer, just make sure it's far enough back so that you can get a hammer to strike the top of the iron. Why do I say that? because that's the very mistake I made when I put the handle on mine! My Krenov jointer is a joy to use, but a pain to adjust. There's no razee on mine, it's a relatively low plane as it is. Though a slight cut out would be helpful.
I'd like to build myself a higher angle jointer like you intend, mine is 45 degrees. A small (5-6") smoother with a 55 degree bed is another nice one to have.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Don't disregard having additional blades with a back bevel - that's what I've been doing with my Millers Fall jointer - I like that method, simply because I don't have the room for multiple long planes in my crowded "shop".

FWIW, 22" is the length of a no 7 plane, and I think a perfectly acceptable length for a jointer.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Fitzhugh

Goodonya for making your own planes!

You need a jack, jointer and smoother.

Use the Krenov-laminated method if you prefer, but it is also possible to build a traditional style that is laminated: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingAJackPlane.html

You could use this to build a jointer as well. This design is better than a Krenov in my opinion as it will allow shavings to flow more freely.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Richard Line]

You may want to check out the razee jointer for sale in the classified section. The pictures will let you get a idea of the proportions of a razee jointer.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

Great information and inspiration, thank you!


I was thinking Krenov style this time because I don't yet have the tools to do a decent job on the traditional version. The examples given show me I have more options than I realized. At some point I'll make some floats, but that is down the road. Im at the very early stages of bootstrapping my woodworking through making tools and using them to make more tools. Mike, please do write up/post pictures of what you're working on.


Very good point about the differences w/ Australian woods... I'm unlikely to mess with gnarly grain again anytime soon. I just put the final coat of finish on a piece of purpleheart with grain going in loops and spirals that was my match. It had me thinking I needed something for wild grain. Really I just need to stay away from it until I know more.


Mark, that is a beautiful plane. I like the use of laminated wedges - half krenov, half traditional, benefits of both. I am especially grateful you mentioned the problem of putting the handle too close as I sooo might likely have done that as well. When I made the ugly stick/spaghetti plane (the 1" wide blade, 18 inch long one) I managed to forget to include the crosspin in gluing it up, even though I had just minutes before read a post in which someone described doing just that. I'll look into making mine with wedges that way. My narrow one requires frequent manual clearing with a little stick (not in the actual mouth) anytime I don't actually have one long shaving flying out of the top - a beautiful sight.


I hadn't considered back bevels. Had to search the term, interesting idea. For now, additional bodies are easier to come by than blades (lots of time, little money). That won't always be the case.


Derek, fantastic writeup and beautiful plane! I'll read it the full way through tonight. I never would have thought of using disappearing screws on the brass throat lining. I was thinking of using a brass insert like that, only tapping the wood and having different inserts for different opening sizes - so far I haven't thought of a properly elegant way of adjusting the opening that I feel up to tackling at this point. How secure is the tote? I don't have a sense of what a mortise like that can hold.


Richard, thanks - I'll go look at it now. I haven't checked the classified yet anyhow, fearing finding things I need.

[Mike Holbrook]

Great info. Derek, I like your design a great deal. I will snap some pictures to add to this tomorrow. For now here is a link to what I started with part wise and some of the early work. I bought the last of Steve Knights plane supplies when he stopped making planes. Not hard to tell what the wood is, very purple.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6062853737/in/photostream

[Jim Matthews]

Have you discussed this with Ron Hock?

He has some kits (http://www.hocktools.com/Kits.htm) at the ready, with very good steel included in the deal.

[Jim Belair]

I'll also make a dedicated shooting plane.... low angle, bevel up.


I think making a low angle woodie would be tough unless you had quite a long blade. Maybe one of the ones LV sells for woodies would be long enough, but you'd have to check the geometry. http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=60009&cat=1,41182,43698&ap=1

JimB

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

David Finck's "Making and Mastering Wood Planes" arrived late yesterday. Great book - things are much clearer. There's a lot of details I would not have thought of.

He suggests making the plane but not fully shape it until you use it some and get a sense of what you want it to do. Krenov shaped his planes that way for a reason. I'll start that way, can always cut it down in back into a razee and add a tote later if I like (or just make another).


I think making a low angle woodie would be tough unless you had quite a long blade. Maybe one of the ones LV sells for woodies would be long enough, but you'd have to check the geometry. http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=60009&cat=1,41182,43698&ap=1
JimB


Good point, Hock also sells longer blades for Krenov planes now, though by the time I make that one I may try a more traditional plane. I'd also worry about short grain. That's a ways out.


Jim, I haven't talked to Ron Hock but I did get the iron and chip breaker for this plane from him.


Mike, you've got the makings of some nice tools. I've seen so many references to Steve Knight's planes, finally looked the old site up on archive.org. The photos of completed planes from him have all looked great. That laminated core is interesting.


David Finck also mentions ripping to approximate size and letting the wood settle for a while but I'm not clear how long. One day? Five days? Two weeks?


I'll post photos when finished. Thanks all!

[Mark Baldwin III]

Fitzhugh, (thanks for the kind words about my planes, by they way), you'll find that Finck's book keeps giving and giving. It's one of the best purchases I've made. "Wooden Planes and How to Make Them" is another good one.
I'm going to second the idea of Ron Hock's kits. I have his jack and shoulder plane. They are both excellent.
The idea of waiting to see what your hands like before shaping a plane is quite a good one. I made a couple of planes that turned out to be rather uncomfortable. Both are now scrap. The iron from one is now in my handled smoother, and the other iron is waiting on a new body. Both are 2". I've found that planes that wide can be a tad difficult. My dad has told me on a few occasions that he wished he sent me to piano lessons as a kid because I have big paws. In reality, I just have long skinny fingers! I'd be willing to bet that if I had made one of my 2" planes in a shape closer to Krenov or Finck, I may have liked it more.

[Trevor Walsh]

I love Whelan's Making Traditional Wooden Planes, he covers two types of lamination then goes on with 18 other projects using traditional solid body plane making techniques. I've starte work on a side escapement plane and floats from his descriptions. A copy of his The Wooden Plane is in the mail...I was delighted to find a reasonably priced copy of this, more when I get to page through it.

[Mike Holbrook]

I just wish Finck's book covered more plane construction methods than just Krenov's.

The LV plane blades look interesting and I may be in the market. My blades are all 3-3 1/2+ long & 2" wide, which is a little short for my thick bodies. At 6" long and 2 1/8" wide though the LV blades may be just too big. In the picture below I have one of the shorter blades in my Jack, as one can see it barely peeks over my wedge & my wedge is not very tall:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6297120323/in/photostream

Here is a shot showing the adjustable mouth all four of my planes have, this is the Jack again:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6297648074/in/photostream/

The higher angle smooth plane is getting a little adjustment to its blade seat:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6297645740/in/photostream/
You can see where my float is removing wood as the freshly worked wood is a brown/gray. After a day or two the wood will turn purple.

The other smooth plane has been flattened and will get a little trimmed off the sides & adjustment to the plane bed. It is easy to see that the the 26" long jointer still needs work on the bottom. The purple areas on the bottom are the low spots I am working down to, the brown/gray areas are where the sand paper has been working. Still a little twist to work out.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6297112769/in/photostream/

[Mark Baldwin III]

Wow! Purpleheart makes for some dramatic photography! That stuff must wear like iron. I wanted to use it for a sole plate but I cracked it while cutting the mouth, how do you tame that stuff?
(hope I'm not hijacking here...)

[Zach Dillinger]

I love Whelan's Making Traditional Wooden Planes, he covers two types of lamination then goes on with 18 other projects using traditional solid body plane making techniques. I've starte work on a side escapement plane and floats from his descriptions. A copy of his The Wooden Plane is in the mail...I was delighted to find a reasonably priced copy of this, more when I get to page through it.

Seconded, for both of these books by Whelan. I reference my copy of "The Wooden Plane" at least a couple of times a week. Just this weekend, after a SAPFM meeting, I was trying to find information on an oddly-shaped plane that one member had brought it. Stumped all of us, but not Whelan. I looked through the section where he has line drawings of hundreds of different sole profiles, sure enough, there was the plane I was hunting for. Turns out to be a double door plane.

Zach

[Mike Holbrook]

Many people seem to hate working Purple Heart. I think it requires a good deal of patience. It works slow because it is so hard. The other challenge is the grain is a little different. It tends to "splinter" at edges, but it splinters in small chunks instead of the more normal slivers. I am just very careful with the edges, rounding them very gently with sand paper before trying to use a file or float. I bought 100 grit 3M Stikit to work the bottoms with and it is still going very slow. I am not sure what the wood is Steve sent me for plane mouths but I think it is even tougher than the Purple Heart. Even a fresh sheet of 80 grit paper on an electric stationary disc sander makes very little progress. It just seems to get slicker instead of actually abrading. So far I have not had any trouble with the wood I have cracking although I have removed thin slices from the sides. I can see how it might crack though as harder materials are often more brittle, knife steel for instance. I am working this wood mostly with Iwasaki floats/files, which do their work without the need for physical pressure against the work.

If these woods prove as tough in actual use as they do in the construction process they should last very well. So far the bottoms seem to polish instead of scratch in actual use. You can see the shinny bottom on the Jack Plane picture above, where I was taking shavings from the edge of a 3/4" board.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

Mark - hijack away! I'll learn from whatever you ask.


I've ripped the 3 by 6 by 23 inch red oak into two 3 by 3 by 23 inches today, then ripped one of them into two sides and a core for the plane. I'm letting them settle overnight. Is that long enough?


I ripped it with a cheap ryoba. - I didn't time it, but those cuts took a LONG time. At 5/16 my side might be a little thin - Finck says 7/16, Hock plans use 3/8. Stiffness along the horizontal direction will vary with the cube of the difference here but I care more about the vertical, and that varies linearly with the change... I think. Does that seem too thin? I'm building my frame saw prior to cutting the other 3 by 3 into planes.


Thanks for the book suggestions. I ordered Whelan's "Making Traditional Wooden Planes." I'll have to git Zach up with any double door plane questions, though, what with "The Wooden Plane" going for $122.52... used.


Mike H. - Those planes are going to be fantastic. Thanks for all those photos. I thought that was a Blum in the background on the original photo. How does it work for you? Not often you see that degree of rethink. I his concept. Looks like quite a collection there with the Blum, a couple Veritas... and now a set of your own creations as well.


Derek, where'd you get that bevel gauge? I noticed it looking over your writeup again.


Tomorrow I tackle ripping and resawing the ironwood for the sole. I expect that to be challenging by hand.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

The LV plane blades look interesting and I may be in the market. My blades are all 3-3 1/2+ long & 2" wide, which is a little short for my thick bodies. At 6" long and 2 1/8" wide though the LV blades may be just too big. In the picture below I have one of the shorter blades in my Jack, as one can see it barely peeks over my wedge & my wedge is not very tall:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6297120323/in/photostream


I meant to mention this before, but looks like I forgot. Hock's site mentions new, longer blades for Krenov planes. They're 4.5 inches instead of 3.5 inches long, and cost $4 more than the same width in 3.5 inch sizes. From your photo, that extra inch would make the needed difference.