changing shaper bearings

[joe milana]

Trying to factor in the cost of replacing spindle bearings into the value of buying a used shaper. Is this something I can do, or does it require special tools, press, and a service call? I'm talking light duty industrial machines, like SCMi T110, Older MiniMax machines, Invicta Delta , powermatic, etc.

[Steve Griffin]

Joe,
I can't speak for the specific machines you listed, but I've replaced the bearings on my Grizzly shaper twice in 10 years. The first time I replaced just the bearings, and it wasn't too bad using a block of wood and mallet. The second time I got lazy and just ordered the cartridge, which comes with all new bearings and takes a few minutes to replace. Since my time is worth something, this was far more pleasant and worth the extra $100 or whatever it was.

[Stephen Cherry]

http://artisans.homeunix.com:443/product_info.php?cPath=36_33&products_id=177

This is Richards site. He's the one to talk to about Delta HD shapers, and Powermatic as well. So it's 75 dollars for a powermatic rebuild. He's rebuild one of my Delta HD spindles, and it could not have been an easier process.

I also have a SCMI T110, and can tell you that is much more massively built than the delta hd. There really is no comparison. I think the PM is a little bigger than the Delta HD, but also relatively small compared to the T110.

[David Kumm]

Hey Joe. Bearings over 20 yrs are likely to need replacing- or at least cleaning if not sealed. The SCMI, MM, SAC type machines will be more expensive due to better bearing quality. You do not want cheap bearings running at 10000 rpm with no runout. Guessing $500 deal. Felder has their bearings in the spindle cartridge so that is most likely easier. Dave

[J.R. Rutter]

I think the OP is talking about the big Delta and Powermatic shapers that have spindles very similar to the SCM. The big old Deltas are more like an SCM T130 - probably heavier. When I did the bearings in my old T130, I used a forklift to pull the spindle and took it to a machine shop to have the bearings installed. It was several hundred $ total, IIRC. The Mnin Max shapers that I'm familiar with use a miniature version of the spindle found in the T110.

[joe milana]

Correct JR, I'm talkin about the older industrial machines. With brokers driving the cost of used machinery up, it's something to consider. When I ask, i usually get a response like" I'm pretty sure they were just changed". or "the machine was completely checked out by our technician and is good to go". ...yeah right.

[J.R. Rutter]

Found this post from almost 5 years ago. The shaper ran well after the bearnings. I measured runout when I sold it, and it was something like 0.0005" - hardly measurable.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?47621-My-Vacation-quot-project-quot

[joe milana]

You just validated my worse nightmare...

Oh, and by the way, machines like that are going for 3-5,000 these days.

[David Werkheiser]

J.R. Rutter, I have followed your posts in the past on the rebuild of your SCM T130 and am now looking at buying a 15 yr old one. I've been told that the massive bearings that do so well in supporting the spindle are also massive in price. Is there any truth in this? Joe, sorry for the side track of your origional post but my question is somewhat related.
David

[David Kumm]

David, When you get the bearing spec give Accurate Bearings a call. They are the place that the OWWM guys get their bearings and the old machines use some huge ones. They are reasonable and give great info. Bound to be cheaper than going through SCMI. J R, maybe you could also speak as to whether those bearings can be cleaned out and regreased or not. Dave

[J.R. Rutter]

If I remember correctly, I found the bearing specs by downloading the manual / parts diagrams from partspronto.com, then looked up the bearing part numbers in their online system. This gave the actual bearing specs. The SCM prices were quite high. I think that there are some Belleville (sp?) washers at one end. I ended up ordering bearings somewhere online - Accurate Bearings sounds like a great source. The originals and replacements were sealed. The SCM manuals typically do not cover any actual maintenance procedures aside from things like belt changes, but they do a good job with exploded parts diagrams, so if you study the drawings it should make sense.

[David Werkheiser]

Thank you David and JR on where to get bearings
David

[Jeff Duncan]

Bigger and better quality bearings do cost quite a bit more. Replacing the bearings in my Powermatic 27 probably cost less than $50 and took me maybe an hour to do. Replacing the bearings in my Martin shaper cost right around $700 and took quite a bit more time. For me it was well worth spending another $170 (on sale with a coupon) for a HF press to do it myself.

One thing that makes a significant difference in cost is the class of bearing. I read a lot of posts online saying that ABEC 7's were required for heavy duty shapers. When I called around I found that 5's were more the norm. Then I called Martin and found that 5's were the originals and that's what I went with.

At the end of the day there's no comparison between the lighty duty Delta's and Powermatics, and the bigger industrial machines. If you can get into something like a T-130 rebuilt, (by you or others), for under $4k I'd say your in good shape, just compare to the cost of new! Brokers may add a bit to the cost of a machine, but I've never seen stuff sell as cheap as it is now.

good luck,
JeffD

[joe milana]

Good info Jeff. I have access to a press, and I have a chain hoist if needed, so I would have no additional cost there. Show me a T130 for under $4k that looks worth buying and I'll jump. I'm just not seeing anything.

[Stephen Cherry]

Good info Jeff. I have access to a press, and I have a chain hoist if needed, so I would have no additional cost there. Show me a T130 for under $4k that looks worth buying and I'll jump. I'm just not seeing anything.

Joe, if you don't mind my asking, what are you planning to do with your shaper? Basically, the scmi line from the past boiled down to t110, t130, and t160. I have a t110, and it's a pretty robust machine, but not super heavy duty like a t130. The t130 is heavy duty, and heavy- much more dense than a unisaw or the like, and will take some head scratching to move around. The t160 adds tilting spindle, and is even heavier. That said, I have turned some monster sized cutters with my t110, and it works OK. I think that the added mass of the larger machines would translate to added rigidity.

As for pricing, I've seen a t130 with side mounted tenoning table available for at least a year for 9k, and guess what, nobody is buying it. T110s sell at irsauctions for about 2k. The bigger machines go for more, but it is not consistantly more. Also, you would probably want a machine from an archetectural company, or something like that. My t110 was used by a company that makes corporate displays to make an occaisional molding. 20 years old, but not much use.

My suggestion for buying is to zig while others zag. irsauctions is the gold standard for woodworking machine auctions, and is very well followed, with good pricing. I was able to scroung up my t110 for about 800 dollars with a delta (steff?) feeder from a small auction, from a company that mostly auctions food equipment, during the Christmas season. And I do see other good deals on occaision. But you need to look, every day. For example, I might see only 2-3 super deals on shapers each year, which means that if I were actively looking to buy, I would see one every hundred days or so. And that is a maybe. Do you go to the local auctions? Scmi shapers are the big mac of the shaper world, they are out there in some numbers, and they will go into local auctions. I've seen equipment go for dirt cheap prices at live auctions, it all depends on who else shows up.

[joe milana]

Stephen, I just want a good heavy shaper and don't want to regret under buying. Also, I refuse to buy Chiwannese. Mostly cabinet doors, the occasional entry door, or one-off piece, and some moldings. How could I go wrong with the T130? I also like the larger table size. If I decide it's not the machine for me, it's still marketable.
I've been to the irsauctions website, but know nothing about it. Lots of fine print, and they wanted my CC# right off the bat, so I turned away. Maybe I should give it a second shot.

[Stephen Cherry]

Joe, it sounds like you have it well thought out, and I agree, you really could not go wrong with that machine. I gave irs my credit information a long time ago and have not had any problems. I know someone who has bought from them alot, and they are fine. Bidspotter, auctionzip, searchtempest, etc. that's where the great deals are. Even ebay if they have a real auction, which is rare for woodworking equipment. If you want a good deal, it usually wont be from a dealer because they have all of their expences and overhead, and they need to eat.

As far as the Chiwannese go, I don't lump the communist chinese in with the free Tiawanese, but I do agree, the European equipment is much better.

[J.R. Rutter]

IRS is fine, but keep in mind the % that you pay them and plan to pay too much for a rigger to prep and load it. I've done a couple of transactions with them and it has gone pretty well.

[Jeff Duncan]

Good info from the other guys. The T-130's are not as plentiful as the smaller brother, but they are out there, just takes looking. I saw a T-160, (still on my list) sell within the last couple months for under $2k....which is super cheap for these machines. I just didn't have the cash having just rebuilt the Martin. If you do your homework and look around enough you will find something. I was looking for a T-110 when I found the Martin! On the other hand the T-110 would likely be more than enough for your needs. I've been doing a lot more interior passage doors and custom hardwood jambs the last couple years which is why I wanted a bigger machine.

I've bought several machines from/through IRS and they're fine. You just need to read all that fine print, understand how it works BEFORE bidding and if it's not local, know the risk your taking. The prices I paid were scrap metal prices making it a worthwhile gamble.

You will likely need the chainfall if you replace the bearings in one of these machines. I know removing the quill in mine required one. I could carry the quill once it was out, but there was no way I could have pulled it straight up and out without a little help.

Lastly I feel the same way about much of the Asian import stuff. I will say however that I took a look at a 7-1/2 HP Grizzly last week while buying an edgebander, and it looked much better built than the smaller machines I bought from them years ago. For the asking price I'd be very tempted to buy it just to have a 3rd shaper with a long table....if I weren't completely broke:(

good luck,
JeffD

[Larry Edgerton]

If you are considering Chiwan imports take a look at Extrema. I have been looking for a T160 but have not found a deal I have been comfortable with at a price I can afford to pay. Extrema has mostly industrial sized machines and they have a nice looking 7.5 hp back tilt that weighs in at 1370# for $6k new. It has a 10" opening. I hate buying anything from China though........

There is a fellow on here, Paul Stonehouse or something like that that has some of their machines in his commercial shop and has good things to say about them.

I would rather pay 5k for a nice used SCM, but like you its the nagging question of what kind of shape it is really in. There are none in my area for sale ever, so I would have to travel or take a chance on an auction. Times are tight and I can't waste money on mistakes.

Let us know what you find. I have bought from IRS auctions as well and had no problems. Read the fine print. The buyer usually pays a premium which adds to the cost.

Larry

[Larry Edgerton]

Heres one that I would buy if it was closer......http://www.ebay.com/itm/SCMI-T130-spindle-shaper-/180746581998?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a1555f7ee

Larry

[joe milana]

Larry, there's a T150 on CL in Wi. that has low usage and priced right. It looks alot like a Grizzly, and if I'm going to go that route, there's a Grizzly 3 hours from me.

I've seen that one on ebay. Seller is a non responder so far, and has no details in the description. I'd like to know at least what spindle, hp, voltage, etc.

I was reading the fine print at the irs website. What exactly is a certificate of insurance(COI)? They say I need one to pick up machinery.

[Stephen Cherry]

I was reading the fine print at the irs website. What exactly is a certificate of insurance(COI)? They say I need one to pick up machinery.

I've called the irsauction people about this, and basically, anything you can move by hand is OK without the insurance. THis includes hand trucks, pallet jacks, rollers, etc. And it's possible to move just about any shaper over a good floor in this way. If I were going to bid, I would call them to clarify this prior to bidding. By the way, the irsauction people were very friendly and professional, as are other auction companies that I have dealt with. The exception is Charleston Auctions of Indiana. Very unprofessional. I bought a large lot of lumber from them, and they gave it to someone else. Most auctions are very careful about setting up lots, but not Charleston Auctions. Then they have the attitude about me wanting the lot that I bought and paid for. There's a lot more to this story, but I can say that for an auction sale, the fall of the hammer is when the sale occurs, except for Charleston Auctions.

When you need power to move something; I think that basically they are telling you to hire the rigger, which is fair enough.

[Larry Edgerton]

I asked when I bought my Oliver and my $2M General Liability policy was all that they required.

Larry