waterlox & stain question

[sarah schell]

I’m reading the directions for Waterlox and is tays that it can be used over most stains provided they do not contain wax or silicone or film forming stain such as a stain containing urethane or some thicker gel type stains. I know that this statement rules out all NON dewaxed shellac, but how can you determine if your stain meets the other criteria?

[Prashun Patel]

You can get away without knowing this for sure by putting a coat of dewaxed shellac over your stain. To be honest, that's a good idea anyway, because ironically, if yr stain is 100% compatible with the Waterlox, then if it is not totally dried, then there is a minor risk that the solvent in your Waterlox will redissolve the stain and cause it to slightly move around or lift. This is only a problem (in my limited experience) if you're applying the waterlox with a cloth.

[Howard Acheson]

The slight amount of natural wax in shellac will not affect the adhesion of Waterlox Original. The "wax" caveat is aimed at polyurethane varnishes which have significantly less adhesion strength.

What stains are you considering? Any standard oil stain or gel stain is fine.

[Henry Ambrose]

Sarah, I'd think about mixing the stain in the Waterlox.
Oil based stains can be mixed into the first coat of Waterlox with excellent results and its easy.

[sarah schell]

I haven't really picked out a stain yet, but wanted to try to do my homework first so that I could narrow down the field for my test boards. I wondered about mixing stain into waterlox. I was considering giving that a try too.

Hopefully tonight, I can start playing around with a couple stains to see what looks good and then maybe tomorrow try the first coat of waterlox.

[Prashun Patel]

Sarah-
It's possible to overcomplicate your finishing schedule. I would try to keep it simple:

A coat or two of stain, followed by multiple coats of the Waterlox.

If you get unacceptable results on the test, then you can think about doing some of things we've recommended.

[Ken Shoemaker]

Sarah,

I have pretty much given up on the oil based pigment stains. It's like spreading mud on the wood and the topcoat, many times, will lift the stain causing the final fishing to be muddy in apperance.

Have a look at the water or alcohol dyes (TransTint). They penetrate the wood and do not lift no matter what you do. You simply mix however much you need, test on scrap to make sure you get the color you want, and wipe it on and let it dry. (If using water, lightly sand the raised grain common when using water.) You will have no problem wiping any topcoat and raising the pigment into the finsh coat.

Frankly, I cant remember the lat time I used a pigment stain. (I just checked and only owned one can of brown that I think was 4+ years old. I JUST PITCHED IT!!!! (NO PIGMENT NO MORE))

Best of luck and remember to send pics of your success. Ken

[Scott Holmes]

Sarah,

Waterlox is a top quality finish and there should be no adverse results using it over properly applied stain or dye.

What are you building?
What type of wood are you using?
The answers to these questions will help us guide your choices for coloring and top coating.

Ken, Dyes are my preference too... however there are times when stains are the right choice; often after the base color has been established with dye. Dyes can still be redistributed by a top coat if both are water soluble or both are alcohol soluble. Dyes have no binder to hold them in place. A light spray coat of de-waxed shellac will lock the dye in place.

I would hesitate to add stain to Waterlox... That technically makes it a toner and getting even color onlarge surfaces is more difficult with a slow drying "toner".

[sarah schell]

we are buying some pre made stair treads in hickory and are going to stain/finish them. I keep hearing that waterlox is the stuff to use on floors or stairs as a topcoat so my plan is 1. stain 2. 2 coats waterlox sealer 3. 1 coat waterlox satin

the risers will be hard maple and will be just finished with waterlox for contrast. we plan on cutting to size and finishing before installation to avoid messing up the newly painted walls.

I'm looking at a water base dye, but after talking with waterlox's tech support, they say that is the least recommend thing to put under their product, but they did tell me how to test the finish for adhesion with tape.

[Scott Holmes]

Waterlox Orginal and Waterlox Satin are very hard varnishes. For stair treads I would recomment Waterlox Polyurethane floor finish.

There will be no adhesion problems with Waterlox over a waterbased dye.

[Ken Shoemaker]

Why, in the world, would they not recomend water based dye? I've used it for quite a while and found it to be an extreamly stable product, well suited for the purpose. Just curious.

[Prashun Patel]

I've used waterbased dye under Waterlox several times. I've not had adhesion problems in the least.

Pigment staining your maple treads might lead to some blotchiness.

+1 on using a waterbased dye. You can get them premixed, or in concentrate form.

[Bob Wingard]

I have to agree that the "PRO" Tech Support guy got it totally wrong. Think about it ... as applied, dye is a dry, dusty colorant or super concentrated liquid that is totally dissolved in water. You apply as needed to attain desired color ... then the water evaporates off. All that's left behind is the color, and they claim this interferes with adhesion how ??? Let us assume an arbitrary solution of dye as 1/4 teaspoon per quart of water, and THAT is a pretty strong solution in most cases. That quart will probably cover 200 at least square feet, depending on wood species & conditions. How does he come to the conclusion that it is a potential problem, considering there is absolutely no oils or solvents left behind, and the only change to the surface is that of coloration ???

[Howard Acheson]

There are basically two types of colorants used to make stains. The most prevalent are pigment colorants used in oil based and some waterbased stains. Minwax oil based and water based stains are basically pigments. Pigments stains are ground up opaque colorant suspended in the liquid. They are not dissolved in the liquid. That is the reason pigment stains must be thoroughly stirred before use and while applying them. Because the pigment is relatively large particles, they are not absorbed into the cellular structure of the wood. Once the carrier liquid evaporates, pigment stain would almost wholly wipe off the wood surface. Therefore, pigment stains have a resin binder (think varnish) that hardens and glues the pigment particles onto the wood surface. This is the reason that pigment stains do not accept subsequent applications well after the initial coat. The resin seals the surface minimizing further absorption of colorant and when the excess is wiped off almost all the colorant is removed. Because the wood surface is sealed, using a water based glue will result in a reduced adhesive bond.

The second stain colorant is a dye stain. The colorant structure of dye stain are much, much smaller than the pigment colorant. Therefore dye stain is dissolved in its carrier--water, oil alcohol). It is also so small that is penetrates the cell structure of the wood coloring the total cell. When applied and thoroughly dried, there is enough wood cellular structure that water based adhesives will still provide almost 100% strength.

As a note, many Minwax oil based and water based stains also contain a dye stain to complement the pigment stain. They are actually a hybrid. Some are all pigment and some are all dye. Both Minwax oil based stain and Minwax water based stain are pigment stains and contain a binder to hold the pigment particles onto the wood. Minwax water based stain is not a dye stain like TransTint or other "aniline" dyes.

[sarah schell]

I plan on trying water base dye (either TT or Lockwood--not sure which yet) on at least one sample board. seems to me that it should work, too, but we'll see.

@ Prashun Patel--think we're going to leave the maple risers plain--just waterlox as a contrast to the stained hickroy. we're gonna see how it looks at least on some test stock.

[Ken Shoemaker]

Just remeber that a water based dye will raise the grain slightly. Just the slightest of sanding will knock down the fuzz and your ready for the Waterlox. There is no way around light sanding with water based dye. I made sanding blocks our of 3/4" junk and used a spray adhesive for pictures to stick cheap sandpaper to it. Very cheap to make a ton of them.

I trust we'll see pics of this project???? Best of luck. Ken

[Prashun Patel]

I've read a few posts that suggest that 'knocking down the grain' after using a water based dye is unnecessary. So, I tested it, and have found (for me) that it's true. My experiment consisted of dyeing an oak bowl, then applying a coat of polyurethane (thinned 50%, since that's how I prefer to apply varnish). After the poly dried, I sanded it with 400 grit and I couldn't tell that the grain was ever raised. I also didn't have to be as gentle with the sanding given that there was some protection from lifting by the varnish.

I know that's hardly statistically significant, but that's my experience.

[Ken Shoemaker]

Prashun, I've always operated on "convensional wisdom" and never thought you could go right to topcoat without sanding. Thanks for the valuable time saving tip. I'll give it a try soon.

Thnaks again, Ken