paraphernalia.... wheres the line?

[curtis rosche]

so we were sitting in the quad on campus smoking a hookah. for those of you that dont know, a hookah is a egyptian water pipe, used for shisha which is tobacco mixed with honey or molasses. we were sitting there smoking when one of the RA's had a problem with it and took it. when we went to the GA to get it back we were told that they think it counts as paraphernalia and because of that we probably wont get it back.

where is the line drawn between paraphernalia and a simple tobaccco device? yeah, you could go smoke drugs out of it, but its the same argument that you can use a pencil as a weapon.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The line would be drawn by the local laws, the arresting officer, the prosecuting attorney, the judge and the jury if necessary......or the college administration.

All it would take would be for that stiff-necked geek you insulted earlier in the day in the dorm....to walk by........see what's going on and place an anonymous phone call to the campus or local police. In the end, it's not worth the hassle to be associated with such devices. It's just not worth it.....and....if for some reason one of your friends "just happen" to put a little some else with a little more kick in it.....and the authorities were called.........well...you could be facing charges....dismissal....a new school......

While hookahs have been around for centuries, my generation popularized using such devices to cover or share the use of materials other than tobacco. It's use is not something new.....it's legal or illegal use....

The RA and GA are just trying to prevent you and your friends from legal grief.

You can debate it until the cows come home but it's easier to not have to show up in court or defend yourself to college administration in the first place.........

...and a pencil as a weapon......yes it can be a very effective weapon and is often taught as such in self-defense classes........ but I would dare to bet it's used less often as a weapon than a hookah is used to smoke and share illegal substances.

[Jim Koepke]

where is the line drawn between paraphernalia and a simple tobaccco device?

In minds too small to accept that in different cultures sharing a tobacco mixture is a normal practice among friends.

If they think it walks like a duck or think it quacks like a duck, then it doesn't matter what the reality, they know what is best.

In my early days as an electronics student in college, a friend had a couple of clip leads with him. For some reason a police officer decided to search him and was about to arrest him for having either car theft equipment or paraphernalia for smoking illegal cigarettes. It took awhile, but eventually it was explained to the officer that it was for use with electronic test equipment.

The picture is big, but some have very small eyes.

jtk

[Andrew Arndts]

The line would be drawn by the local laws, the arresting officer, the prosecuting attorney, the judge and the jury if necessary......or the college administration.

All it would take would be for that stiff-necked geek you insulted earlier in the day in the dorm....to walk by........see what's going on and place an anonymous phone call to the campus or local police. In the end, it's not worth the hassle to be associated with such devices. It's just not worth it.....and....if for some reason one of your friends "just happen" to put a little some else with a little more kick in it.....and the authorities were called.........well...you could be facing charges....dismissal....a new school......

While hookahs have been around for centuries, my generation popularized using such devices to cover or share the use of materials other than tobacco. It's use is not something new.....it's legal or illegal use....

The RA and GA are just trying to prevent you and your friends from legal grief.

You can debate it until the cows come home but it's easier to not have to show up in court or defend yourself to college administration in the first place.........

...and a pencil as a weapon......yes it can be a very effective weapon and is often taught as such in self-defense classes........ but I would dare to bet it's used less often as a weapon than a hookah is used to smoke and share illegal substances.

Nuff Said, I agree 100%
It may seem to be that "The Man" is trying to put you down. Sadly Anything to do with Tobacco products are getting to be more and more socially unacceptable. Now the bottom line is, I would suggest in all reality, to stay away from it all together.

[Derek Gilmer]

Find the school's policy on what paraphernalia is. If the hookah falls into it you are probably out of luck. Other was calmly work your way up the chain of student/school authority trying to resolve the issue. I found one thing working as an RA in school for 3 years. The higher up the chain you go the lazier people get. If you keep pestering them to make the situation right they often do it simply to be left alone.

[Phil Thien]

The line would be drawn by the local laws, the arresting officer, the prosecuting attorney, the judge and the jury if necessary......or the college administration.

All it would take would be for that stiff-necked geek you insulted earlier in the day in the dorm....to walk by........see what's going on and place an anonymous phone call to the campus or local police. In the end, it's not worth the hassle to be associated with such devices. It's just not worth it.....and....if for some reason one of your friends "just happen" to put a little some else with a little more kick in it.....and the authorities were called.........well...you could be facing charges....dismissal....a new school......

While hookahs have been around for centuries, my generation popularized using such devices to cover or share the use of materials other than tobacco. It's use is not something new.....it's legal or illegal use....

The RA and GA are just trying to prevent you and your friends from legal grief.

You can debate it until the cows come home but it's easier to not have to show up in court or defend yourself to college administration in the first place.........

...and a pencil as a weapon......yes it can be a very effective weapon and is often taught as such in self-defense classes........ but I would dare to bet it's used less often as a weapon than a hookah is used to smoke and share illegal substances.

I know it has already been quoted once, but I'm quoting it again.

I agree with this 100%.

[Jason Roehl]

There's some good advice in this thread. One theme that's there, for the most part, is "Choose your battles wisely".

One thing younger folks often don't consider is that when one or two people take on a large organization, they're likely to lose, particularly where the legal system is concerned. Yes, there are many examples where the little guy won in history, but they truly are the minority by far.

So, if your life goal is get everyone smoking hookahs, then by all means dig your heels in and fight. However, if you have other, larger goals in life, I would suggest keeping your head down, pick your battles carefully, live to fight another day, and save your energy for what is truly important to you. (I haven't had much coffee yet, otherwise I'm sure I could have come up with a bunch more clichés). Don't do things that attract unwanted attention and scrutiny.

[Greg Peterson]

Worry about your studies.

[Jim Rimmer]

Legal or not let me throw in some advice unconnected to the Hookah. As a guy who is 63, started smoking at 15 or 16 and is now trying to quit, QUIT NOW. If I had all the money I burned up smoking, I could outfit one of the premier shops on the planet. Not to mention the health impact. Write off the hookah as a lesson learned (not sure why you were in the quad with it, anyway) and quit smoking now.

[Greg Portland]

yeah, you could go smoke drugs out of it, but its the same argument that you can use a pencil as a weapon.Ask them to test it for illegal drug residue if they think it's being used for drugs.

[Ed Hazel]

I am actually surprised they allow smoking inside. Some do not allow smoking at all on campus.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Greg...IF local laws or campus regulations consider it paraphenelia, it doesn't have to be tested......it's already considered illegal

Somethings in life are important.....most aren't......this isn't.

[Robert McGowen]

Kind of like if your were beating your wife. Cops roll up and arrest you, but you say that in some cultures it is common to beat your wife, so it is okay. Bet you would still go to jail. Different culture, different rules, different viewpoints.

[curtis rosche]

if you look up the definaition of paraphenelia, its is defined as any item that has been used for illegal substance. not for something that could be. which is how they are allowed to sell bongs and other items which i think should be illegal.
but a hookah is different. for the hookah we were using, you would have had to modify it for illegal use. and how is us using a hookah different than all the kids walking around with rolling papers rolling who knows what. but no one ever has a problem with them when they see it.

Ed, the quad is outside, and they tried to ban smoking on campus a few years ago, but all the people who were supposed to enforce it were smokers themselves. so it didnt work. they changed it and said you just have to be 20ft away from doorways and from airvents

[David Weaver]

You're not getting into an argument of fine points with attornies, so even if you turn out to be right, you might not win. If they don't give it back, it's not worth the trouble. There's nothing really to be gained, anyway, unless you get it back and sell it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Curtis..... choose you battles....... it's not worth it.

Whether or not you think it shouldn't be illegal really doesn't matter to those who have to enforce rules, regulations and laws. Keep in mind, those who are tasked with enforcing laws and regulations may not agree with them, don't make the laws and regulations but they are required to enforce them.

Further, I would bet you could smoke grass and other illegal items in that hookah you were using little or no modification.

Beyond that....it doesn't matter what some dictionary or encyclopedia defines as parphenelia...... it's what the law specifically states...and the interpretation of same by a court...and possession of same can violate the law if possession is illegal......

Somethings in life are important ..........most aren't.............. This isn't.

[Wayne Hendrix]

Legal or not let me throw in some advice unconnected to the Hookah. As a guy who is 63, started smoking at 15 or 16 and is now trying to quit, QUIT NOW. If I had all the money I burned up smoking, I could outfit one of the premier shops on the planet. Not to mention the health impact. Write off the hookah as a lesson learned (not sure why you were in the quad with it, anyway) and quit smoking now.

Curtis, as another college student, only one in medical school, I think this is the best advice so far.

As far as getting the hookah back, I might try telling them that because you were using it for legal means you did not think it qualified as paraphernalia, but now you see their point of view. Apologize for not seeking further clarification first and tell them that your only interest in getting the hookah back is to sell it to recover the cost and that it will not be used on campus again.

[Mike Henderson]

Hookah or cigarettes or cigars or pipes - don't be stupid and get hooked on tobacco. You'll regret it the rest of your life. It's MUCH easier to walk away now than to get hooked and try to quit later.

Almost everyone who starts smoking says, "I can quit any time I want" but later they find that quitting is a lot harder than they thought it would be. And, yes, that's the voice of experience.

Mike

[Jerry Bruette]

I'm already convinced there was more than tobacco in your hookah.

"Paraphenelia" isn't listed on Dictionary.com and "Paraphernalia" is defined as: equipment, apparatus, or furnishing used in or necessary for a particular activity.

A hookah is defined as: an oriental pipe for smoking marijuana, tobacco, etc. consisting of one or more long flexible stems connected to a container of water or other liquid through which smoke is drawn and cooled.

I've been to Eqypt and never saw a hookah, but I did see them in Pakistan...in use and for sale. When a fellow shipmate tried to bring one back onboard the ship it was confiscated as contraband.

I think your time, money and efforts would be better spent on your studies. Trust me you'll need them more than your hookah in the future.

Jerry

[Chris Kennedy]

Being a university campus, you could be in a grey area. If I recall correctly, you are at a PASSHE school (Millersville?). From your description of events, your quad may be a part of the dorm. Despite being a public school, the dorms may be operated by a separate business associated to the school -- some schools have a separate legal entity that operates its dorms and other service aspects of the school. Because of this, and if you have agreed to live there according to their rules, what legally defines paraphernalia is less important as to what they define as paraphernalia (this is what allows them to enforce rules like you cannot have a hotplate in your room, or halogen lamps, or whatever).

On the other hand -- a hookah? Really? Don't go down that path.

Cheers,

Chris

[Charlie Reals]

Curtis, there is good advise on here and not much I could add other than listen to it then ask yourself what your step Dad would have told you?
My Mom used to say there was such a thing as being dead right. This is one of those times. I was always told part of any diploma is the knowledge you could follow rules.

[Bryan Morgan]

You allowed another person to take something from you that you legally owned? Sounds like you agreed with whatever they claimed it was... To do otherwise would have been theft.

[Jim Koepke]

You allowed another person to take something from you that you legally owned? Sounds like you agreed with whatever they claimed it was... To do otherwise would have been theft.

When a person who is openly carrying a gun and has some back up asks me for something, I am not likely to do anything other than they request unless I have at hand the ability to over power them and their back up. In the case of sworn officers, any resistance can end very badly for the resistor.

When it comes to picking one's battles, it is likely healthier to allow the police to act out side of the law and then hope for vindication in the courts.

jtk

[Larry Browning]

Without a doubt, one of the hardest things to learn for a young person is when to stand up for what he/she perceives to be right and when to just let it go. You need to look at this situation carefully and be brutally honest with yourself. Is this REALLY something, if not resolved to your liking, will make a positive impact on your future? I highly doubt it. Is studying and making good grades going to make a positive impact on your future? I highly think so.
Come on man! Think about this, make a mature decision.
You have received very good advice here, don't ignore it. Man up! Learn from it, stop smoking and start taking advantage of this great opportunity before you called college.

[Don Orr]

Curtis, I have to agree with the advice posted here so far. This not a battle worth fighting. You know as well as we do how these devices can be and are used. While you may not have been doing anything illegal, that is not really the issue here. You are a smart guy-stay that way. Consider this event part of your education. When I was in college I learned way more about life and people living in the dorms than going to classes. Maybe they will give it back at the end of the semester or school year if you ask nicely.

[Derek Gilmer]

I'm going to be a voice of dissent here. This is a battle I'd pursue a little. I wouldn't bankrupt myself or be obsessed with it. But the campus police took something from you with the claim that it is illegal. If you are telling the full story, your hookah is legal on campus, has never been used for illegal purposes and they have no reason to think you might you deserve to get it back. The hassle will likely take awhile to resolve but stick to it and get back your property. Don't make a fool of yourself or insult anyone. But instead stand your ground and let the law work for you. To do otherwise is giving in to fear mongering of what the man might do to you if you stand up for yourself.

On a health note. When you get it back throw it in the trash. Save the money on tobacco and inhale shredded fiberglass. Your lungs might come out healthier.

[Bill Cunningham]

I don't know about the rest of Canada, but in Ontario you can walk into any fleamarket and buy anything, "pipes", hooka's, roach clips, and just about 'paraphernalia' you would like.. We have 'head shops' on the main streets of many towns, and it seems to be perfectly legal. But, you can't buy the 'funny' stuff to smoke in them.., and you have to be licensed to sell tobacco.. I've had headshops bring me bongs to etch the company name into. Some you can, some you cant. The ones made from borosilicate glass can't be etched with a laser. It seems rather silly to arrest and prosecute someone for owning a different shaped pipe.

[Charlie Reals]

I don't know about the rest of Canada, but in Ontario you can walk into any fleamarket and buy anything, "pipes", hooka's, roach clips, and just about 'paraphernalia' you would like.. We have 'head shops' on the main streets of many towns, and it seems to be perfectly legal. But, you can't buy the 'funny' stuff to smoke in them.., and you have to be licensed to sell tobacco.. I've had headshops bring me bongs to etch the company name into. Some you can, some you cant. The ones made from borosilicate glass can't be etched with a laser. It seems rather silly to arrest and prosecute someone for owning a different shaped pipe.

Pretty much the same way here. I guess So cal has closed a lot of hookah shops that offered strictly tobacco smoking. Head shops have been the norm for years.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Derek......If the law is written in such a way that it specifies a hookah is considered paraphernalia and possessing paraphernalia is illegal....it doesn't matter what they were using in the hookah. The mere possession violates the law in that case.

Yes....you could take it to court and try to beat the charges.....but in Curtis' case.....it might take more time than it would take to complete college and graduate school and might cost just as much.

It is the same problem you would run into if you were arrested carrying a pistol in a community where handguns have been outlawed. It wouldn't matter if the pistol had or had not been used legally or illegally........they would legally arrest you for possession and confiscate the pistol. You would then face charges for possession.

Choose your battles wisely.

[Derek Gilmer]

Derek......If the law is written in such a way that it specifies a hookah is considered paraphernalia and possessing paraphernalia is illegal....it doesn't matter what they were using in the hookah. The mere possession violates the law in that case.

Yes....you could take it to court and try to beat the charges.....but in Curtis' case.....it might take more time than it would take to complete college and graduate school and might cost just as much.

It is the same problem you would run into if you were arrested carrying a pistol in a community where handguns have been outlawed. It wouldn't matter if the pistol had or had not been used legally or illegally........they would legally arrest you for possession and confiscate the pistol. You would then face charges for possession.

Choose your battles wisely.

I agree, that is why I said if it is legal on campus. If the law is on his side this is a battle that is worth fighting to a point in my world. To the point where school suffers? No. But if it means missing a sitcom or two while going to follow the paper trail, then it is a yes.

[Phil Thien]

I agree, that is why I said if it is legal on campus. If the law is on his side this is a battle that is worth fighting to a point in my world. To the point where school suffers? No. But if it means missing a sitcom or two while going to follow the paper trail, then it is a yes.

Digging your heals in on something as trivial as this is a great way to make you a thorn in the side of the university police and administration. Not worth it, IMHO.

[Jerry Bruette]

Digging your heals in on something as trivial as this is a great way to make you a thorn in the side of the university police and administration. Not worth it, IMHO.

Could also put a target on your back or earn you the "trouble maker" label. I'm guessing those are things Curtis doesn't need in his life.

[Mike Cruz]

The real bottom line, whether I agree with your point or not, is that the law is the law, rules are the rules. You may chose to disobey either for whatever reason/arguement you please, but if you do chose so, you have to be prepared to suffer the consequences whether it be confiscation or punishment. That is how society works...regarless of how silly the law or rules appears to you. Laws and rules are there for a reason. You/we/I don't need to understand why. If, however, you feel you do need to understand a particular one, feel free to research it, ask those who made the law, and try to change it if you feel the answer is unsubstantial.

Why is the speed limit on road X 35? I can see for 1/2 mile ahead of me and there are no houses? If I don't understand "why" the speed limit is 35 there, should I just deem it unreasonable and go faster? The answer to me, is no...there is a reason, so I follow it. If the answer to you is "why", go to the appropriate division of the SHA to put in a quiery about the posted limit. Maybe it will get changed to 50, maybe you won't get an answer...that is your choice.

[Phil Thien]

Could also put a target on your back or earn you the "trouble maker" label. I'm guessing those are things Curtis doesn't need in his life.

Exactly my point.

When I was a junior in college I required multiple surgeries. I scheduled them best I could, but had to approach the administration and ask for some special accommodations.

Had I previously been a PITA that insisted on the return of a smoking apparatus, they likely would have said, "no."

However, I was the guy that had concentrated on my school work and kept my grades up. So the word went to my professors to "make it work." They did their best to accommodate me.

My point is, you never know when you're going to need someones help. I sure wouldn't jeopardize my relationship with the admin and police over something this trivial.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Curtis, did you ever consider that maybe it was your actions that brought all this on? Consider this for a moment... had you and your friends been in the privacy of a dorm room when this took place, I can see the RA asking about what you were smoking and the result may or may not have been confiscation. However, by deciding to 'smoke' in public, you removed the talking option as the RA was forced to take immediate action to protect the school.

College is a great time to learn about all sorts of things besides just what is being taught in the classroom. Hopefully, you have learned a few things from this and consider possible consequences while deciding what it is you want to do.

[Derek Gilmer]

Lets take the Hookah out for a second and change it to his cel phone, woodworking tools or any other item he might own. Then the RA came buy and said "Hey, that might be against the rules give it to me". Would you all feel any different? An RA is non Law enforcement, pretty low on the "I know what I"m doing" totem pole and wasn't sure about the rules when he took it. It might offend the RA if he tries to get his property back but I have to believe somewhere in the chain of authority the school would follow the policy. Maybe the policy says hookahs are paraphernalia in which case you are dumb for having in the first place. But if they aren't against the law or school rules then the school admins should know you have an RA out there snatching up peoples stuff.

Again, this is spoken as an RA for three years in college. If I started grabbing up stuff with out a really good reason I would not have been invited back to be an RA. Possibly even stripped of the job right there. This is on top of the fact that he was outside the dorm when the RA took it. It may be different at his school but for me anything that happened outside the dorm was a "call campus security and take pictures with your phone if you can" event. There was one case of a bag of pot being found in a dorm room. Due to the legalities of it the police had to be called. An RA simply doesn't have the legal authority to confiscate personal property.

The big points that make me think it is a fight worth exploring at the very least:
1. Not a police official doing the confiscation
2. The RA/GA isn't sure the item is even illegal or banned by the school

Other things that could drastically change it
1. We aren't hearing the whole story or back story to Curtis' interaction with school officials (sorry man, people lie sometimes)
2. Hookahs are clearly banned by a school policy or local law

[Greg Peterson]

Concentrate your resources on your studies. Pursuing this matter is an absurd expenditure or your time and energies. The tree of liberty is not watered with the blood of college students fighting against a tyrannical RA.

If you truly feel you are the injured party, the best avenue for resolution would be to get involved in student politics. Whatever political body the college offers would seem to be the most reasonable mechanism to reverse this injurious policy.

[curtis rosche]

Curtis, did you ever consider that maybe it was your actions that brought all this on? Consider this for a moment... had you and your friends been in the privacy of a dorm room when this took place, I can see the RA asking about what you were smoking and the result may or may not have been confiscation. However, by deciding to 'smoke' in public, you removed the talking option as the RA was forced to take immediate action to protect the school.

College is a great time to learn about all sorts of things besides just what is being taught in the classroom. Hopefully, you have learned a few things from this and consider possible consequences while deciding what it is you want to do.

its illegal to smoke in the buildings, and its the people who smoke in private around school, in the bathrooms and shady corners that are doing illegal things, not the ones who are you in the open.

we did get the hookah back after it was tested for drugs. though the officer did break the wind cover off of it because he didnt understand how to use a simple latch as would be on a cheap toolbox. and the Ga knocked it over and broke the bowl(the Ga offered to replace it). we were told that its not specified in the rules so they cant take it because it didnt have drug residue. and they cant change the rules till next year or they would have to reprint and redistrubute the rule books.

side note: i wasnt focusing on the smoking part so much as i was upset with the immediate assumption that we were doing something illegal, and then they refused to listen to us at all. i get rather irked when someone trys to tell me i cant do something that i know is legal and within my freedoms and rights.

[Mike Cruz]

Curtis, the point about the hookah, as I see it, is that while it can be used to smoke legal tabacco, it can (and often those types of things are) used otherwise. Not sure if it is the same thing, but if you were drinking water out of a beer bottle (one that was thoroughly washed out without ANY beer or alcohol remaining in it) in public, you would likely not be allowed to...even if it is just water.

[Bryan Morgan]

Curtis, the point about the hookah, as I see it, is that while it can be used to smoke legal tabacco, it can (and often those types of things are) used otherwise. Not sure if it is the same thing, but if you were drinking water out of a beer bottle (one that was thoroughly washed out without ANY beer or alcohol remaining in it) in public, you would likely not be allowed to...even if it is just water.

This is a very slippery slope as far as law is concerned. I can run over a bunch of kids with my truck, but I don't. I can put cats in my wood chipper, but I don't. For every thing that can be used in a "bad" way, the contrary is also true. We can't bubble wrap everyone and everything and lock them in closets "just in case". Whether he is smoking weed, tobacco, jenkem, or anything else I don't really see how that effects anyone anyway unless he's blowing the smoke on them.

I don't see how anyone can "disallow" another person to do much of anything that doesn't effect them directly. Why would someone "not be allowed" to drink water from whatever container they wish? I do it all the time. Not really sure how it would effect someone else so much as to "not be allowed".

Sorry, I just get offended (maybe offended is too harsh, but you get my meaning) at the notion of "not allowed" when things aren't effecting anyone else. "Land of the free" is right there in our national anthem... maybe I'm naive for believing it.

For every rock one must find a glass house to put it through I guess...

[Mike Cruz]

Bryan, my point is that the beer bottle was made to drink beer out of. Your truck was not made to run over kids...well, I actually have not idea who made your truck and what their true intentions were when designing it...could have been that creepy guy from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang for all I know. :)

As for the "not allowed". What I meant was illegal. Not sure if drinking water in public out of a beer bottle is illegal or not. Not is the sense that you would/could get arrested for it, but an officer may be within his abilities to remove it from you. Quite honestly, me drinking a beer in public doesn't affect anyone, but I am still not allowed to do it. (Of course Ron White would insist that he doesn't want to be drink in public, he wants to drink in a bar...) There are reasons for what we, society, are allowed and not allowed to do. That is how we continue to function. If everyone could do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted we'd be in a lot of trouble. For example: If no cars are around, should I be allowed to swerve back and forth between two lanes just because I want to? Or how about with no cars around, straddle the dotted white line? Neither is affecting anybody else.

Simply put, a beer bottle is designed to hold beer. If 100 people were hanging outside in the quad drinking out of beer bottles (let's define these as glass bottles that have a beer label on them), and 10 of them are drinking beer while 90 are drinking water out of beer bottles, and assuming, as it is, drinking (alcohol) in public is illegal, then a campus police officer would have to go around and test each person's container to see if it contained alcohol. Whereas if it is "not allowed" to have a beer bottle in public (regardless of what you have in it), then a beer bottle in public is easy to spot as an offense.

Honestly, drinking water out of a beer bottle in public draws as much attention to you as smoking tabacco out of a hookah... Sorry, Curtis. If hookah's aren't against campus policy, you are in the right to have been able to use it. But, it still draws attention to yourself like drinking beer out of a beer bottle in public.

Furthermore, if anyone reading this was walking down the street and saw a couple 16 year olds helping themselves to a vodka bottle, would you assume they are drinking vodka or water?

[curtis rosche]

Bryan, my point is that the beer bottle was made to drink beer out of. Your truck was not made to run over kids...well, I actually have not idea who made your truck and what their true intentions were when designing it...could have been that creepy guy from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang for all I know. :)

As for the "not allowed". What I meant was illegal. Not sure if drinking water in public out of a beer bottle is illegal or not. Not is the sense that you would/could get arrested for it, but an officer may be within his abilities to remove it from you. Quite honestly, me drinking a beer in public doesn't affect anyone, but I am still not allowed to do it. (Of course Ron White would insist that he doesn't want to be drink in public, he wants to drink in a bar...) There are reasons for what we, society, are allowed and not allowed to do. That is how we continue to function. If everyone could do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted we'd be in a lot of trouble. For example: If no cars are around, should I be allowed to swerve back and forth between two lanes just because I want to? Or how about with no cars around, straddle the dotted white line? Neither is affecting anybody else.

Simply put, a beer bottle is designed to hold beer. If 100 people were hanging outside in the quad drinking out of beer bottles (let's define these as glass bottles that have a beer label on them), and 10 of them are drinking beer while 90 are drinking water out of beer bottles, and assuming, as it is, drinking (alcohol) in public is illegal, then a campus police officer would have to go around and test each person's container to see if it contained alcohol. Whereas if it is "not allowed" to have a beer bottle in public (regardless of what you have in it), then a beer bottle in public is easy to spot as an offense.

Honestly, drinking water out of a beer bottle in public draws as much attention to you as smoking tabacco out of a hookah... Sorry, Curtis. If hookah's aren't against campus policy, you are in the right to have been able to use it. But, it still draws attention to yourself like drinking beer out of a beer bottle in public.

Furthermore, if anyone reading this was walking down the street and saw a couple 16 year olds helping themselves to a vodka bottle, would you assume they are drinking vodka or water?

i understand what your saying, but if you saw a group of college kids smoking a hookah, and didnt smell pot, and they were talking and having fun and not looking like they are trying to be shady, would you suspect them of doing drugs?

[Mike Cruz]

Um, truthfully, if I saw a bunch of college students smoking out of a device that looks like a bong and having a good time.....YEAH, I'd think they were doing drugs.

If I saw a man with a ski mask exiting a bank with a large bag, I'd think he robbed it too!!!! Sorry, but if the shoe fits... Of course this doesn't mean he DID rob the bank, but he has to be prepared to be stopped by some authority and questioned.

[Jerry Bruette]

i understand what your saying, but if you saw a group of college kids smoking a hookah, and didnt smell pot, and they were talking and having fun and not looking like they are trying to be shady, would you suspect them of doing drugs?

Curtis do you know what hashish smells like while it's being smoked? Just because I don't smell pot doesn't mean an illegal substance isn't being used. I think that if the RA, GA, campus police or even the local police didn't at least stop and ask what the college students in question were doing and if they could see some legal form of identification then they wouldn't be doing their job.

You have to remember that if you draw attention to yourself you'll get attention....maybe not the kind you want but you'll get attention.

Jerry

[curtis rosche]

shisha smells like what ever flavor it is. at that point in time it smelled lie apples and watermelon,

[Derek Gilmer]

Curtis do you know what hashish smells like while it's being smoked? Just because I don't smell pot doesn't mean an illegal substance isn't being used. I think that if the RA, GA, campus police or even the local police didn't at least stop and ask what the college students in question were doing and if they could see some legal form of identification then they wouldn't be doing their job.

You have to remember that if you draw attention to yourself you'll get attention....maybe not the kind you want but you'll get attention.

Jerry

Police or campus security asking questions is a far different matter than a university student/employee confiscating personal property because it might break a rule.

[Larry Browning]

I don't think you are grasping the point that others have already stated clearly. If you are consuming something from a devices that is commonly used to consume something illegal, you are going to get attention from those whose job it is to investigate such things. They are not going to care if it smells like fresh baked bread, you have drawn their attention, and they will investigate, you should expect it. Nothing you say or do will convince them otherwise. Do you think it would be out of the realm of possibility to disguise the smell of pot? I would think it could be done.
The drinking water out of a beer bottle, sorta reminded me of what I did in my youth, drinking beer out of a coke can. That worked pretty well until the cops walked up and started talking to us. It was not the 1st time he had seen that trick. We thought it was so creative and original too!

[curtis rosche]

a hookah is much different from a bong, it doesnt even look like a bong.
here is a hookah : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Hookah-lookthrough.svg/170px-Hookah-lookthrough.svg.png

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=hookah&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS386US386&biw=1008&bih=993&tbm=isch&tbnid=017l5d6a20UyZM:&imgrefurl=http://www.pyramidtobacco.com/index.php%3Fmain_page%3Dpage%26id%3D6&docid=GJredFOGXTzJVM&imgurl=http://www.pyramidtobacco.com/images/hookah_setup_diagram.gif&w=331&h=458&ei=eY6wTs7ULo-WtwfOuqSmAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=201&vpy=150&dur=3587&hovh=264&hovw=191&tx=118&ty=115&sig=111215582004868216849&page=1&tbnh=138&tbnw=100&start=0&ndsp=31&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0

here is a bong:
http://edca.typepad.com/.a/6a011278de342f28a40120a90a40d3970b-320wi

they really dont even work the same. with on the material is lit on fire. the other is just heated. there is a huge difference between the two

[Derek Gilmer]

a hookah is much different from a bong, it doesnt even look like a bong.
here is a hookah : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Hookah-lookthrough.svg/170px-Hookah-lookthrough.svg.png

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=hookah&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS386US386&biw=1008&bih=993&tbm=isch&tbnid=017l5d6a20UyZM:&imgrefurl=http://www.pyramidtobacco.com/index.php%3Fmain_page%3Dpage%26id%3D6&docid=GJredFOGXTzJVM&imgurl=http://www.pyramidtobacco.com/images/hookah_setup_diagram.gif&w=331&h=458&ei=eY6wTs7ULo-WtwfOuqSmAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=201&vpy=150&dur=3587&hovh=264&hovw=191&tx=118&ty=115&sig=111215582004868216849&page=1&tbnh=138&tbnw=100&start=0&ndsp=31&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0

here is a bong:
http://edca.typepad.com/.a/6a011278de342f28a40120a90a40d3970b-320wi

they really dont even work the same. with on the material is lit on fire. the other is just heated. there is a huge difference between the two

Trust me, you can smoke pot out of a hookah. Lots of folks do it. If you use a hookah in a public place like a college campus chances are you will draw attention as others have mentioned.

That doesn't mean it can be seized by an RA. It does mean a law enforcement officer can investigate it. And maybe confiscate it for investigation and/or detain you while he looks into it. But it has to be handled properly. Not taken cause "it might be wrong" by an fellow student with a fancy job.

[Jeff Nicol]

1st. Smoking is a waste of money and time
2nd. Paraphenalia is anything that can be used for a certain process or operation, but becomes "DRUG" paraphenalia when the illeagal drug residue or product is found in or on the item
3rd. The colleges of today are filled with many who have self serving, self agrandizing inflated ideas of who they are and what they are destined to attain, wrong attitude for sure!
4th. Doing anything that can be taken as an illeagal act is something to not do and stay away from. Riding in the car with a drug dealer can make you guilty by association: Brains before pride! Know right from wrong and live it.
5th. If you could get a good apprenticship or a trade school you will come out ahead than attending most universities, the proof is camping all around our country right now.............What a great waste of many hundreds of millions for the degrees with names like "Oriental studies" "Humanities" "Modern Dance" and you know more that make no sense and have nothing to do with anything in real life.

And finally my oldest daughter has 2 degrees and was a 4.0 student all through High school and college, worked all through and had no debt to pay off in the end, but with a conservation degree minor in biology and a law enforcement degree, she still ended up working at a "KWIK TRIP" convenience store and has worked her way up to a store manager. So all the schooling in the world won't garauntee you a job, pay or benifits, it is the work ethic and hard work put in each day that will get you to the top, not the piece of paper that says you read a lot of books and wrote a bunch of nonsense papers. I have 4 friends that are highly educated "Engineers" of some sort or another, and I am the one they come to to solve the problems, me the uneducated no account bum with no college degree, but common sense goes a long way in the world. Common sense should have told you that smoking some odd looking thing with water in it and hoses coming out of it, would be assumed an "ILLEAGAL" substance "Paraphenalia.

My 2 cents

Jeff

[Phil Thien]

First, let's dispense with the notion that they're only used for tobacco.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hookah

They're clearly also used for smoking all sorts of illicit drugs. Some combinations will be undetectable by odor, especially in an open area.

I'm surprised that you took the thing outside, started smoking it, and didn't expect any sort of reaction.

If I had witnessed such an event, I would either imagine the people smoking the device were either extremely naive, or were attempting to bait the authorities.

Just MHO.

[Steven Lee, NC]

As someone who has no first hand exposure to pot other than what I get from tv and the movies, the hooka looks alot like a bong to me. Should it have been confiscated by the RA, probably not. Should the RA have called the police to make that determination? probably so. Smoking a device like that in public in my opinion is not very bright.

[Mike Cruz]

Curtis, also remember that the difference between a hookah and bong is about the same as the difference between a pistol and a rifle. They just aren't that different...

[Charlie Reals]

I would agree Mike but I think a pistol and revolver would be a better example. Lotta difference the other way. Either way with all the grey areas when it comes to laws on this subject it is better to avoid the problem and smoke it elsewhere. Most of the time out here it's folks pushing an issue to see what happens.

[Mike Cruz]

Hey, Curtis. Look what I saw while driving through a Virginis campus town!215510215509

[curtis rosche]

nice Mike, they later banned them from campus cause they didnt want to deal with it any more. they enacted the ban over thanksgiving break, but did not send out email or notify any one. the only way i found out was when the Ga who is now a friend, decided to quietly let me know before it got taken for good

[Van Huskey]

First, it seems there is a general consensus how to handle to particular case. Just some observations about "drug paraphernalia", it is almost exclusively used as "pile on offense" mainly to add a charge or charges to increase the prosecutions leverage in the plea phase, if it goes to trial it is usually a treated like a lesser included offence and more or less disappears in terms of real impact. I have never seen it used alone without at least residue as an offence that actually gets prosecuted separate from other charges UNLESS it stems from the sale of the items. Small parts baggies and shipping scales (particularly if it will read in grams) can be deemed paraphernalia thus the charge usually won't stand alone. From memory the federal law is 21 USC 863, again from memory doesn't explicitly mention a hookah and the argument is strong without residue it is a traditional tobacco product. The cultural use of hookahs is actually on the come back in the US spurred by the American palette becoming more open to foods from regions where post dinner hookah smoking is common.

On a further note a college campus is often a gray area when it comes to possession of many items, you agree to play by their rules as part of your matriculation.

[Derek Gilmer]

First, it seems there is a general consensus how to handle to particular case. Just some observations about "drug paraphernalia", it is almost exclusively used as "pile on offense" mainly to add a charge or charges to increase the prosecutions leverage in the plea phase, if it goes to trial it is usually a treated like a lesser included offence and more or less disappears in terms of real impact. I have never seen it used alone without at least residue as an offence that actually gets prosecuted separate from other charges UNLESS it stems from the sale of the items. Small parts baggies and shipping scales (particularly if it will read in grams) can be deemed paraphernalia thus the charge usually won't stand alone. From memory the federal law is 21 USC 863, again from memory doesn't explicitly mention a hookah and the argument is strong without residue it is a traditional tobacco product. The cultural use of hookahs is actually on the come back in the US spurred by the American palette becoming more open to foods from regions where post dinner hookah smoking is common.

On a further note a college campus is often a gray area when it comes to possession of many items, you agree to play by their rules as part of your matriculation.
Here is that very thing (items adding to a sentence once you find an illegal substance) from a local store. http://thecabin.net/news/local/2011-12-01/investigators-seize-more-3000-illegal-items-70s-store?page=2

Moron was selling illegal K2 and had pot on him. So all the legal items like pipes/bongs instantly became drug paraphernalia that will increase his sentencing.

[David Weaver]

I don't know why you would even worry about this, Curtis. I think when you're older and you look back on this, you'll realize how much of a waste of time all of this was. Especially when there are tons of ways you can smoke tobacco if you'd like, without raising any suspicion.

It's not necessarily about who is right about the little technical details, or thinking that a more-strict than the law policy is wrong or that whoever wrote it doesn't know a hookah from a bong, but more about understanding when you're not going to win and when you're wasting your time - especially when you're in college and effort toward something more productive has a material effect on your options after you graduate.

The resident assistance folks at colleges are universally going to be a pain, and the rules and processes are in their favor. As that sinks in, the best thing you can do is learn how to avoid them.

[Moses Yoder]

Legal or not let me throw in some advice unconnected to the Hookah. As a guy who is 63, started smoking at 15 or 16 and is now trying to quit, QUIT NOW. If I had all the money I burned up smoking, I could outfit one of the premier shops on the planet. Not to mention the health impact. Write off the hookah as a lesson learned (not sure why you were in the quad with it, anyway) and quit smoking now.

I agree with this 100%. At one time I used to smoke cigars, now if I think about sucking in that tar and acid into my lungs I just can't do it. Plus, if you quit smoking now, you will have money to help other people with their emphysema expenses, instead of them having to help you.

[David Larsen]

If you were sitting in your front yard you may get a different direction from this.

You were on a college campus. You don't own or control that property. You also have limited rights while on that property. Someone came upon you that has some limited authority. That person apparently didn't like what he saw and thought it could be unlawful. That person isn't expected to be an expert, but was entrusted enough to take some action when he saw something that didn't look right. That person isn't immediately going to magically "smell" every substance at that point in time to determine if it is okay or not. That person isn't going to "let it go" just because you didn't look the part.

That person took the property. It was tested. Everything came out clean and you got it back. Move on!

[Jim Matthews]

The higher up the chain you go the lazier people get. If you keep pestering them to make the situation right they often do it simply to be left alone.

Jim's first rule of management; Management isn't interested in justice, management wants peace and quiet.
Jim's second rule of managment; If management can't fix pressing problems, they'll find something that can be fixed: make sure it isn't YOU.