To take to a machine shop or?

[Brian Cameron]

I have a Stanley/Bailey #8 type 9 that belonged to my grandfather that I just got from the widow of my older brother...who inherited all of my dads tools when Dad passed on..the sole and sides have some pitting and I was thinking of getting them machined out at a local machine shop...but...how much can I get them to remove and still retain the structural integrity of the plane? What tolerence should they flatten to? Please...no suggestions to do it myself..I want it done right and the few $$$ involved here are not a killer...I want to restore the plane to near pristine state to pass onto my son..
Brian

[george wilson]

It will be more than FEW dollars to grind the sides and sole.

[Andy Margeson]

I have heard very good things about this guy: http://tablesawtom.com/plane.htm

[Bill Houghton]

If the pits are deep enough, you'll wind up with a plane that's no use. You'd want to consult with the best old time machinist you can find.

Consider this, though: people pay extra for corrugated planes, which are basically regular bench planes on which Stanley machined long, fairly deep pits. And they work fine. Your plane will most likely work fine with the pits in it, too. We all get some scars as we go through life; they make us more interesting looking.

[David Weaver]

No. It'll cost $50 to ship it to someone and back without even machining it, you'd only want it ground by someone who knows planes.

And grinding it will add no value, but it will give a fresh surface that will rust like crazy. It'll be pitted again before anyone uses it and the pits won't affect use at all.

If you want to do your son a favor, do some light cleaning on it and give it to him. He can get it ground any time, but you can't ungrind it.

[Brian Cameron]

I am sorry guys..if you thougt I wanted to add value...that is NOT the purpose.. I want to improve the plane, because of family ties to it...to the best possible state that I can..I realize tht financialy this is a disaterous move...emotionally? Who knows...it is really the only thing that I have from these men..and I would love to see it restored and passed on..I am sure that many of you can understand this thread of thought

[Patrick Tipton]

I would love to see it restored and passed on..I am sure that many of you can understand this thread of thought

Hi Brian, I think you are right, most folks here get it. I think the issue is whether this restoration furthers your goal? The majority of my tools were purchased used. I don't typically refurbish them cosmetically - only get them to function properly. Well used tools take on the character of their owner in the same mystical way that musical instruments do. When you completely redo them, all the mojo is lost. Think about Stevie Ray Vaughan's guitar - I don't think many folks would think that a pristine restoration would do that guitar any good.

It is your plane so you obviously can do anything you want to it. I don't think you are improving it by having any machine work done to it. I would lightly remove the rust, tune it up and honor your grandfather and his tool by using it and teaching your son to use it to make beautiful things.

Regards, Patrick

[george wilson]

Those prices by Tablesawtom ae quite reasonable. You'd be paying EL MUCHO more than that at a regular machine shop. And,he knows how to clamp the planes carefully so as to not have them spring out of flat when unclamped. A regular machine shop might not be as good if they haven't done this job before.

[Jim Koepke]

+1 on what Patrick said.

If the plane will be a user, just a light cleaning and checking before anything else would be in order.

If it is to be a keepsake, I still wouldn't want to remove the surface patina. Clean off and stabilize any rust and then maybe a bit of oiling/waxing now and then.

jtk

[Bruce Page]

I agree with George. I wouldn't think twice about sending it to tablesawtom. I have done a fare amount of grinding and it is obvious to me that the guy knows what he is doing and he does it for a very fair price.

[David Weaver]

If it is to be a keepsake, I still wouldn't want to remove the surface patina. jtk

Neither would I. It'll essentially be (with shipping) paying $100 to get something that is different and not better.

Being that it's a stanley, if I were uber-concerned about keeping it forever, I would get a different plane to use. If a beginner drops the plane on the floor, it'll be toast.

But if it's surface ground and it's left anywhere for a year without use, it's going to come out with rust - rust that it wouldn't accumulate if you don't grind off the patina.

And then you'll have a surface ground plane with little pits all over it when it's cleaned off.

There's no great reason to have a bunch of surface ground planes for actual use. Unless they are defective to start, it doesn't really make them "better" for anything other than shooting, and I probably wouldn't ever go to an 8 for that.

[george wilson]

David is very correct: A clean,machined or sand blasted iron surface will rust like crazy. It would be best to immediately get a good coating of oil on it as virgin iron will rust quick and thoroughly. Just keep it oiled and waxed and it'll be o.k.. Once upon a time the plane WAS new and freshly ground.

[David Weaver]

The first plane I got was one that someone had lapped the piss out of. It was fresh and clean on all sides, and despite being bananaed (new word) a little bit by the lapping, it worked very well. It rusted in less than a week, with little pits everywhere that I got the rust off of it.

then I got a couple of other planes, and decided I was going to to HT and power tools, and that I wanted a few LN's to smooth off the planer chatter (I could've done just fine with the plane I had, but someone told me to "go get LN planes"). So I bought a bunch of them.

And they're nice, no doubt, and over the next year, because of using, touching them, etc, not using some, etc. every one of them got a little rust on it somewhere. And the old cast planes I had gotten from various places, that didn't get used much because of the LNs - despite camelia oil, they all got rust spots on them various places. but all of the tool sites and places that want you to buy videos and goods described it as *the* thing to use on planes, so I figured i must not have used enough.

I sold off all of the LN bench planes I don't use, and put shellac thinly on the sides of all of the vintage planes I had that never get used on their sides, and waxed the bottoms. Except the planes with patina - they don't rust where I store them. I will not again have a plane with fresh shiny sides and bottom unless it's one that will get used nearly every day, or it's one that I actually build (kind of tough to get away fom having fresh metal on those).

I don't use camelia oil on any planes any longer, waste of time and money. Anything that will sit longer than a month gets paste waxed and put in a dry area. But I still don't want to chase around rust, and if there is a time to grind a plane that isn't defective (and by that, I mean manufacturing defect), I'd say it's right before you know you're going to be using it all the time, and that it'll not be able to rust.

If the intention is to make this plane shelf jewelry, then by all means, have it ground and just do something to keep it from rusting - like a very thin padded coat of super blonde shellac. Just don't confuse the grinding on bench planes with them being made better for work or made to be worth more - especially in the long run. One only needs to look at the FTJ sales listing to see the discount that refinished planes sell for.

I used to argue the other way around, but I can admit now most of it was a waste of time and I was wrong about it. (I still lap most of my planes, but that's only one side and it's free, even though I can admit that for all but a few, that's also a waste of time - it's often caused me to pull a plane out later and find that the bottom has rust on it and the sides with the patina don't).

[Ray Gardiner]

Just to add another perspective, I have been doing a lot of surface grinding lately, mostly M2 chisels and plane blades, I have seen rust spots form within 5 minutes on freshly ground surfaces, just after grinding, I wash off the grinding dust before flipping over to do the other side, since seeing how quickly the rust forms, I've added some clear grinding coolant additive to the wash water, and no more problems.

Second point, is that some cast iron is slightly porous, and after grinding, you need some kind of wax or surface layer to protect the surface, I've been using Lanox, which is a blend containing some lanolin, If it's something that you want to put into long term storage, then cosmoline (sp?) is the traditional protective coating... not sure even if you can get the stuff anymore? (dried cosmoline can be a real pain to clean off though)

I had a look at tablesaw tom's website, and he is saying all the right things as far as how to setup and grind a plane body..

Should you decide to get it surface ground, TableSawTom looks like a good place to start, don't forget take the time to guard against further rust. Personally I'd just tune it up and keep it as original as possible, well, except maybe if the sole is convex, or twisted, a few rust pits is not going to have much effect on how well it works.. the blade on the other hand should be perfectly flat and sharp..

Good luck with it, and congratulations on having the desire to pass it onto the next (and possibly many more) subsequent generations..

Regards
Ray

Edit, evidently Brownells have an equivalent to cosmoline http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=26344/Product/RUST-VETO

[john brenton]

There seems to be some philisophical differences here, and maybe a little misunderstanding on plane function. I agree with the posters here that not only can grinding it make it worse than before, but philisophically speaking, a reground and shiny plane isnt grandpas plane anymore. The age and wear on that plane is grandpa...the shiny metal is Stanley.I would would scrape and buff with paste wax, sharpen up the iron and see how it performs. The wax buffed with some steel wool will remove a lot of filth without exposing raw metal and protect it from further rusting.

[Chris Griggs]

The first plane I got was one that someone had lapped the piss out of. It was fresh and clean on all sides, and despite being bananaed (new word) a little bit by the lapping, it worked very well. It rusted in less than a week, with little pits everywhere that I got the rust off of it.

then I got a couple of other planes, and decided I was going to to HT and power tools, and that I wanted a few LN's to smooth off the planer chatter (I could've done just fine with the plane I had, but someone told me to "go get LN planes"). So I bought a bunch of them.

And they're nice, no doubt, and over the next year, because of using, touching them, etc, not using some, etc. every one of them got a little rust on it somewhere. And the old cast planes I had gotten from various places, that didn't get used much because of the LNs - despite camelia oil, they all got rust spots on them various places. but all of the tool sites and places that want you to buy videos and goods described it as *the* thing to use on planes, so I figured i must not have used enough.



Yep, every one of my LV planes has some brown rust on it and I wipe them down with camelia oil every time I use them. Nothing serious, just little bits of light surface rust, that I'm careful to keep under control, but still it always comes back often in the form of a finger print - its amazing how quickly ones body chemistry can rust metal. I ended up doing some lapping on the vintage jointer plane I got a couple weeks ago, as soon as I was done lapping I rubbed paraffin wax and camellia into the sole, nonetheless the lapped area(s) had rust on them within a week - once again nothing major, but it still blows me away how fast the rust appears. I guess I need to start using paste wax or maybe some of that spray stuff that folks put on their table saw and jointer beds.

Regarding the OPs question - I agree with others, if its usable keep it as is - as John said, the wear on the plane is part of what makes it special.

[Bill White]

I just finished up a #7. Cleaned it up. Lightly lapped the sole to remove some light rusting, sharpened it, set the frog, etc. I don't see the value in a perfectly lapped sole/sides on a plane that large.'cause of the intended function. ( I know that this statement will start a flurry of contrary comments.)
Slick it up and pass it on. I admire your wish to pass on the heritage, and I hope the receiver will appreciate the provenance.
Bill

[Chris Griggs]

I just finished up a #7. Cleaned it up. Lightly lapped the sole to remove some light rusting, sharpened it, set the frog, etc. I don't see the value in a perfectly lapped sole/sides on a plane that large.'cause of the intended function. ( I know that this statement will start a flurry of contrary comments.)
Slick it up and pass it on. I admire your wish to pass on the heritage, and I hope the receiver will appreciate the provenance.
Bill

Actually I think a lot of folks who are regularly using these things for stock prep will agree with you. I certainly do, so no contrary comments here. A plane needs to be flat enough to consistently take the shaving you want it to take and leave you with the surface you want - nothing more. Depending on what your trying to do this can range from dead flat to surprisingly out of flat and/or bananaed.

[Jim Koepke]

Once a person takes shavings with a curved bottom spoke shave, perfectly flat bottoms do not seem to be as important.

If a plane's sole is concave from toe to heel, then some lapping may be in order. I have only had one plane that seemed to noticeably suffer from that malady.

jtk

[Jeff L Miller]

Interesting discussion and it seems a bit one sided.

Brian, I would do a couple of things. First, wait. Wait for a while and let grandpa's plane grow on you. As you wait, read up on planes and all the things you want to do with it; grinding, flatening, etc and see if thats what you really want to do to it. Then, after you're sure (or you wouldn't have asked the question) do what pleases you.

I my opinion, I would do the following and for my own reasons, but you ultimately will decide.

The #8 is not a highly collectible plane and you've already stated monetary value is not a concern. With that, I try to take tools to a level where a craftsman would be proud to have it on his bench (read that somewhere and I like it). This includes repairs, rust removal, cleaning etc but not over doing it. Nothing feels better than a well used tool that has been taken care of and loved.....usually, though a new Lie Nielsen can make one swoon. If you don't want to do that yourself, there are folks who specialize in plane tune up and taking them to the level I mentioned. You could research them while you're waiting.

To me grinding it is un-necessary and would take the plane to a place where Grandpa wouldn't even recognize it. Then you have a new looking bottom, an old looking top, worn rosewood handles, kind of like an older house with a poor remodel in my opinion, they never look quite right.

Through all the discussion, this really is a nice problem to have. I never got a thing from either of my granfathers but a few old pictures of people I don't know.

Good luck and either way, I'd love to see some pictures and there is nothing better than passing along a treasured item.

Jeff

[Paul Chiasson]

I had Tablesaw Tom do his magic on my grandfather's old #5, and it is a thing of beauty and a joy to use. I think I know where you're coming from. There is some real sentimental value, but it is also a working tool. I think that would have made my grandfather happy to see the thing being used: he wasn't much of a knick-nacks kind of guy.

[Carl Beckett]

I like this discussion. Its somewhat philosophical.

I have inherited, and use several of my grandfathers (and fathers and great grandfathers tools even). I like using them, and know they would appreciate that I do actually use them. None of them are particularly high value.

I tend to care for them and condition them to the state that I enjoy them. I think the original owners would appreciate this - because hand tools in particular are somewhat personal in nature (to me at least - I develop an emotional attachment to certain tools - more so if family items). My style is not to 'over modify' though - again my style is to just clean them up into good working condition. But that is MY style - and I think if I went with a crazy modification that worked for me - and I got a lot of use out of it - my grandfather would be smiling down on me shaking his head saying - look at what that young whippersnapper did to my tools - but smiling none the less.

The idea of just waiting for a while before doing something irreversible is a great suggestion (imo) - but if you KNOW you would enjoy the tool yourself as a personal item if cleaned up a certain way - my vote would be to do it.

Beer oclock (these type of conversations is why I enjoy this forum - discussing philosophy ....)

[David Weaver]

Beer oclock

Now that's a philosophy I can agree with no matter the circumstances.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Just on the discussion of rust vs. patination - I know what you folks mean - I've a block plane, a little no. 60, that's got that nice old patina on it, and it doesn't matter how I store it, it's good. Freshly lapped iron, or new tools, I don't keep 'em paste waxed, or wipe of any drop of sweat, and it's bad news. I cleaned the gross rust off an old combo square and I've been fighting to keep it clean ever since. I don't usually clean patina anymore unless it interferes with the use of the tool. That said - is there anyway to encourage "patina" over rust? I mean, I don't even know what the difference really is or how you end up with one over the other.

To the OP - you've heard our opinion. I like to clean the sole of a plane enough that it doesn't rub off on the work, but it doesn't sound like yours is that nasty. I lap small smoothers soles, simply because it's not a hard job. Jacks I don't worry about because it doesn't usually affect the use (I use them for rougher work) Jointers, it depends on whether the tool works as is or not. The sides, I leave. That said, we've given you the reasons to leave it alone, and why many of us would, but the ultimate decision is up to you and what you feel is best. I think Tablesaw Tom is the best option if you want the work done. But we don't know your grandfather and what he would have thought, and none of us have seen the plane. More importantly, we don't know how you're going to feel about it in the end of the day. It's a philosophical difference, and we can't tell you what the "right" answer is, as there isn't one. You have to make that decision; don't let anyone talk you into or out of what you want, but now you've heard the pros and cons of the options, you should be able to mull it over and make an informed decision.

[Paul Incognito]

While I agree with a lot of what's been said above, I took a bunch of my planes to a local machine shop to have the bottoms flattened. They did a great job and it cost me about $100.00 to do 10 or 12 planes.
I expected to see a big difference in performance, and didn't. The bottoms all came out clean and shiny, but none of them work noticeably better than they did before. So, if I had it to do over again, unless the sole was REALLY bad, I'd leave well enough alone and just use them.
Oh, and I put a thick coat of wax on all the unpainted parts of my planes and so far rust hasn't been an issue.
Hope this helps,
Paul

[george wilson]

Paul: $100.00 to do 10 or 12 plane bottoms????? I WISH we had those kind of machine shops around here!!! They'd want $300.00 to do ONE plane around here!

My only "surface grinder" is really a little tool and cutter grinder that will grind about 4" x 12" as a surface grinder. It is really a tool and cutter grinder,as said. I can sharpen most end mills,reamers,etc. on it. It doesn't do drill bits.I do them by eye. I've never gotten a proper surface grinder. A weak spot in my machine tool arsenal.

[Chris Vandiver]

While I agree with a lot of what's been said above, I took a bunch of my planes to a local machine shop to have the bottoms flattened. They did a great job and it cost me about $100.00 to do 10 or 12 planes.
I expected to see a big difference in performance, and didn't. The bottoms all came out clean and shiny, but none of them work noticeably better than they did before. So, if I had it to do over again, unless the sole was REALLY bad, I'd leave well enough alone and just use them.
Oh, and I put a thick coat of wax on all the unpainted parts of my planes and so far rust hasn't been an issue.
Hope this helps,
Paul

Since you were able to get all those planes done so cheaply, I would be interested to know how flat the soles turned out, especially since you say that they show no improvement in use. The machine shop may not have done them correctly.

[Paul Incognito]

George, the machine shop I took the planes to is a pretty big outfit. They had a semi-retired guy do the work after hours. You know the old saying-good, fast or cheap, pick two? Well they were good and cheap, but it took a month or so.
Chris, I actually never put a straight edge on the soles after getting them back. The machinist told me they were all within a couple thousandths. They all worked pretty good before the machining, so I assume they were in good shape before. Don't get me wrong, the machined planes all work great. Paper thin shavings are possible with all of them, and they make lumber flat. What more can you ask?
Paul

[Jeff L Miller]

Another option I was thinking about last night while trying to sleep (am I the only that thinks about tools instead of counting sheep?). What if you did as many have suggested here, do moderate cleaning, tune up, and sharpening to your level of ability, then if you don't like the way it came out, go the other route. Nothing lost trying the first method and you can still do the other grinding if you want, kind of the best of both worlds I think

Jeff