Help, a ghost turned on my dust collector

[Charlie Ross]

I went out in my shop a few day ago, and somehow my dust collector had started up on its own. I’m not exactly sure how long it was running, but as hot as the motor was I’m sure it was running for a while. I’m not quite sure how it turned on… someone may have tripped my remote switch (Shop Fox) with a garage door opener, cell phone …??
Anyway, my question is; does anyone know of an electrical timer that will start when the dust collector is started, and “if not manually turned off” will automatically turn off after a preset length of time? It would have to reset every time the power is turned off to the machine.
I’d appreciate any help with this, I’m afraid of it happening again and burning out my motor, or worse yet, catching on fire.
Thanks,
Charlie

[Don Wacker]

Dust collectors should never be connected to a RF remote system. I'd look into an IR switch if you want a remote system. If its not RF already then it was not your garage door opener or cell phone.

Don

[Fred Belknap]

I use the Long Ranger to turn my DC on and off and I'm pretty sure it is RF. It will operate when I'm outside the shop. There isn't any cell service here and I don't think any neighbors have auto garage door openers, guess I will be ok.

[Don Wacker]

Its the police, fire vehicles, semi trucks and rednecks with linear's that will turn those things on. Cell phones wont do it. :)

Don

[Sam Layton]

Charlie,

My dust collector came on one time when I was in the shop. It was no problem because I was in the shop. My system uses a 110 volt Radio Shack remote wired to a 220 volt contactor switch. In addition, I have a 110 volt light switch that I switch on to give power to the remote. When I am not in the shop, my switch is off, so the dust collector can not come on.

Sam

[Jerome Stanek]

I have a relay hooked up to my air compressor that when the lights are off my compressor can not run. You could do the same thing with your dust collector.

[Carl Beckett]

I like the idea of a whole shop power switch. I have children, and would like to kill the power to most equipment every time I leave the shop. It's in the plans as I get my shop wired... With only a couple circuits always liveBut to answer the question specifically, there are definitely industrial relays that run a set time after power on. You might start with mcmaster Carr to source them ( might be spendy)

[Steve Kohn]

I have a relay hooked up to my air compressor that when the lights are off my compressor can not run. You could do the same thing with your dust collector.

I've done the same thing with my air compressor when I got tired of having to go back out into the shop because I forgot to turn it off. It's a simple 110/24 volt transformer with the primary wired across a light. The secondary is wired to a 220 volt relay in the electical panel. That relay interrupts both legs of the 220V circuit to the compressor. It was about $30 in parts and took about 30 minutes to install.

[Stephen Cherry]

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Relays_-z-_Timers/Timer_Relays/Fuji_Electric_Timer_Relays_Mini-DIN_(ST7_Series)/ST7P-2A16N-ADC

Something like this would likely do the trick. You would need to confirm that you have a normal magnetic contactor, and confirm that the coil is 120 v.

[Dan Hintz]

Dust collectors should never be connected to a RF remote system. I'd look into an IR switch if you want a remote system. If its not RF already then it was not your garage door opener or cell phone.
Why shouldn't they be connected to RF systems?

And how does IR solve random starts over the RF setup? If my TV can increase its volume at random times because the fluorescent lights trick out the IR sensor, there's nothing to stop the same thing from happening with a DC.

Either way, it's unlikely it's a cell phone regardless of it being RF or not... wrong frequency range, the freq/time modulation schemes aren't appropriate to triggering the units, etc.

[Charlie Ross]

Thanks for all the help guys!!!
Stephen, I’m going to give them a call, but it looks exactly what I’m looking for. If it is, I’ll get a second one for my air compressor. I’ve always worried about the hose on it busting when I forget to turn the switch off.

[Stephen Cherry]

Thanks for all the help guys!!!
Stephen, I’m going to give them a call, but it looks exactly what I’m looking for. If it is, I’ll get a second one for my air compressor. I’ve always worried about the hose on it busting when I forget to turn the switch off.

Charlie, I think you would need a few more parts to make this work with an air compressor. I think they turn on and off in a different way.

[Curt Harms]

If you want to be low tech and have a 24 or 120 volt coil, you could use something like this in a multi-hour model:
http://www.intermatic.com/products/ec 4 layer/in wall timers/spring wound auto off timers/ff spring wound commercial series.aspx (http://www.intermatic.com/products/ec%204%20layer/in%20wall%20timers/spring%20wound%20auto%20off%20timers/ff%20spring%20wound%20commercial%20series.aspx).
Run the control circuit from the remote through the timer to the coil. If the timer were not set it wouldn't matter what the remote was doing, the machine could not turn on. I just have one centrally located switch for my D.C. controlling a relay. If I had a larger shop I'd probably have a relay with a 24 volt coil & transformer with several start/stop stations. Being low voltage it should be pretty easy and inexpensive to install. Using a "If the lights aren't on, things are not powered" setup seems like another good approach for shops where lights need to be on in order to work.

[Charlie Ross]

Charlie, I think you would need a few more parts to make this work with an air compressor. I think they turn on and off in a different way.

Stephen, I don’t have much of an electrical background, but I was thinking I’d wire the timer between the compressor pressure switch and the motor..??

[Harvey Melvin Richards]

I have all of my non-essential breakers labeled as such, and I turn them off when I leave the shop. It's a little bit of a hassle, but nothing will start by itself.

[Jerome Stanek]

With my compressor when I leave the shop I shut off the lights and the 220 volt relay shuts power off to the air compressor. It can't start until I turn the lights on and the relay engages.

[Stephen Cherry]

Stephen, I don’t have much of an electrical background, but I was thinking I’d wire the timer between the compressor pressure switch and the motor..??

Charlie- I've got a pretty good electrical control background, but I certainly have not seen everything, and it's difficult to give specific advice without a schematic, but generally, a compressor has a switch that turns on at a low pressure and off at a higher pressure. A fan has an on switch and an off switch. The problem is that the compressor does not have a sort of latch to prevent it from turning on once the timer runs out. The fan shouldn't restart until the start button is pushed. All this adds up to is an additional switch and relay, as far as I can tell without a schematic.

[Alan Schaffter]

Charlie- I've got a pretty good electrical control background, but I certainly have not seen everything, and it's difficult to give specific advice without a schematic, but generally, a compressor has a switch that turns on at a low pressure and off at a higher pressure. A fan has an on switch and an off switch. The problem is that the compressor does not have a sort of latch to prevent it from turning on once the timer runs out. The fan shouldn't restart until the start button is pushed. All this adds up to is an additional switch and relay, as far as I can tell without a schematic.

I don't see how the delay-on-start relay at your link would solve OP's issue, which, as I understand it, is that his RF remote on his DC is being triggered by some outside source*. All a delay-on-start relay would do, if one could be used at all, (see current limit) is just delay the DC from powering up by the selected amount of time when triggered by any source. It would still start under the conditions he stated. If the SF remote (not the DC) is separately powered from 110V then he could connect that to his lighting circuit or a simple switch and turn it off when he leaves the shop like Sam, Steve, and Jerome suggest. Another solution is to add a simple disconnect to the entire DC and turn it off when he leaves the shop (don't use the breaker- wears them out prematurely). If his DC remote is integral with a full voltage mag switch, it is better he leave it alone, unless he really knows what he is doing (which it sounds like is not the case).

* If he has a cheap non-digital RF remote that is possible, but more than likely he has a bad mag switch with a bad spring, loose wire, etc.

I doubt the specs on that delay relay (1 A @120 VAC inductive load) are sufficient for the compressor which usually has a full voltage pressure switch! In any case the delay on start relay is NOT the solution here either. If he is concerned about the compressor running continuously while he is away if a hose breaks, then the solution is to turn off the power to it or shut off the air at the tank when he leaves the shop. That is what I do if I leave for a more than a day.

[Stephen Cherry]

I don't see how the delay-on-start relay at your link would solve OP's issue.

Alan, here is how Charlie presented the problem, "Anyway, my question is; does anyone know of an electrical timer that will start when the dust collector is started, and “if not manually turned off” will automatically turn off after a preset length of time? "

The idea of the timer is to have the "coil" of the timer (the input), hooked to the coil of the motors contactor. When the dust collector turns on, the timer starts timing. After the set amount of time the timer clicks, just like a normal relay, but it takes the set amount of time. The "normally closed" output of the timer is in series with the stop button of the dust collector. That way, when the timer reaches it's set amount of time, it performs the same function as hitting the stop button. All this assumes a normal motor starter circuit with NO start button, NC stop button, and contactor with aux contact to seal in the start. This would perform the function that Charlie requested. Of course there are other ways to handle the situation, but the ways that were suggested, while certainly useful and appropriate, would not work as requested.

As far as the compressor goes, as I mentioned, they turn on and off differently, and you would need to look at how it is wired up. You are correct, the 1 amp rating would not be able to run the motor directly, it would need a contactor. Plus as I mentioned earlier, you would need an extra relay and switch or two thrown in.

Hope this helps.

Also, there would be additional ways to run this. One way would be to set this up so that after a machine runs for a set amount of time, it "trips" so that a reset buttion would need to be pressed befor the machine could be restarted. This would handle the case where the input telling the dust collector to start was still present, and also for a compressor, it could set a max runtime on a machine with a limited duty cycle.

[Alan Schaffter]

Alan, here is how Charlie presented the problem, "Anyway, my question is; does anyone know of an electrical timer that will start when the dust collector is started, and “if not manually turned off” will automatically turn off after a preset length of time? "

The idea of the timer is to have the "coil" of the timer (the input), hooked to the coil of the motors contactor. When the dust collector turns on, the timer starts timing. After the set amount of time the timer clicks, just like a normal relay, but it takes the set amount of time. The "normally closed" output of the timer is in series with the stop button of the dust collector. That way, when the timer reaches it's set amount of time, it performs the same function as hitting the stop button. All this assumes a normal motor starter circuit with NO start button, NC stop button, and contactor with aux contact to seal in the start. This would perform the function that Charlie requested. Of course there are other ways to handle the situation, but the ways that were suggested, while certainly useful and appropriate, would not work as requested.

After looking at the specs again, I saw that there are two sets of N.C. contacts - initially I thought they were grounded, so yes that would work, but it still would require an override. Another disadvantage I see is if his system is really receiving start signals from an external transmitter his DC could still start and run for his preset time or nearly continuously, depending on the frequency of signals from the RF signal source. Frankly, he just needs to add a manual switch/disconnect so he can shut it off when he leaves his shop.


As far as the compressor goes, as I mentioned, they turn on and off differently, and you would need to look at how it is wired up. You are correct, the 1 amp rating would not be able to run the motor directly, it would need a contactor. Plus as I mentioned earlier, you would need an extra relay and switch or two thrown in.

Hope this helps.

Also, there would be additional ways to run this. One way would be to set this up so that after a machine runs for a set amount of time, it "trips" so that a reset button would need to be pressed before the machine could be restarted. This would handle the case where the input telling the dust collector to start was still present, and also for a compressor, it could set a max runtime on a machine with a limited duty cycle.

Bottom line, sounds like it is beyond OP's safe knowledge/skill level.

[Mike Cruz]

When I got my ClearVue cyclone, I wanted a remote control for it. I ended up getting the remote starter that is on the Grizzly 5hp cyclone. When it got delivered, I installed it. The control didn't have batteries. So, before I had gotten a chance to install the batteries, I went over to my JET air filtration system and turned it on...UM, yeah, the JET came on, but so did my ClearVue!!!! I got the biggest chuckle when I looked at the two remotes next to each other... THE EXACT SAME REMOTE WITH DIFFERENT "LABELS" ON THEM. Unfortunately, they don't have dip switches on them, so you can't change the frequency...

[Stephen Cherry]

When I got my ClearVue cyclone, I wanted a remote control for it. I ended up getting the remote starter that is on the Grizzly 5hp cyclone. When it got delivered, I installed it. The control didn't have batteries. So, before I had gotten a chance to install the batteries, I went over to my JET air filtration system and turned it on...UM, yeah, the JET came on, but so did my ClearVue!!!! I got the biggest chuckle when I looked at the two remotes next to each other... THE EXACT SAME REMOTE WITH DIFFERENT "LABELS" ON THEM. Unfortunately, they don't have dip switches on them, so you can't change the frequency...

Then you need a PLC to sense all the machines turning on and off, and based on this to start and stop the dust collector and air filter.

[Mike Cruz]

A PLC? Que amigo?

[Charlie Ross]

Bottom line, sounds like it is beyond OP's safe knowledge/skill level.
I hear that, you guys are losing me! Anyway, I'm getting a lot of good choices here. I like the idea of splicing into my lights, but I'm not sure what gauge wires I have running to the lights, and if the circuit could handle an extra load from my DC? I still like the timer Stephen first mentioned, when I thought it was going to be 2 wires in, and 2 wires out. But now ya'll are throwing in too many: overrides, "frequency of signal from the RF signal sources" and "limited duty cycles" for me to keep up, LOL!!!

[Alan Schaffter]

A PLC? Que amigo?

PLC = Programmable Logic Controller like the "Green Box" that Eco Gate uses. My DC is triggered whenever a gate is opened manually or automatically using a current sensing circuit on the output of the transformer that powers the autogates. My electro-pneumatic autogates are triggered by current sensors at each machine outlet. The current sensors are a simple little device that has torroid coils that drives an internal solid state switch that operates solenoid air valves. Got all that?

Current sensor switch:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/P50400021.JPG

[Alan Schaffter]

Bottom line, sounds like it is beyond OP's safe knowledge/skill level.
I hear that, you guys are losing me! Anyway, I'm getting a lot of good choices here. I like the idea of splicing into my lights, but I'm not sure what gauge wires I have running to the lights, and if the circuit could handle an extra load from my DC? I still like the timer Stephen first mentioned, when I thought it was going to be 2 wires in, and 2 wires out. But now ya'll are throwing in too many: overrides, "frequency of signal from the RF signal sources" and "limited duty cycles" for me to keep up, LOL!!!

Unless you have a small DC, your lights are probably on a 15 amp circuit and unlikely to be able handle the lights and DC directly at the same time. You would use your light circuit to power the remote receiver only if its source of power can be separated from the DC power, or use the light circuit to power the coil in a contactor (big relay) that powers your DC. We are talking about two circuits/functions- One circuit is a control circuit- it can be low voltage and doesn't need to carry much current- it is used to operate the magnetic coil in a larger contactor. The contactor contacts control the second circuit- the contacts are supplied with and can handle 120v or 240V and up to 30 amps or more that is used to power the DC motor. It is like the ignition switch and starter in your car- both are 12V but the key switch only operates the solenoid- the solenoid has heavy duty contacts that provide the 12V at high starting current through heavy wires to the starter motor. If you tried to start a car with only an ignition switch the little ignition wires would melt almost immediately.

My reference to frequency was not "RF frequency" but how often the DC is or may be triggered. That delay relay can not power your DC directly, it is not rated for enough current. It would need to power and operate a contactor.

[Charlie Ross]

Thanks Alan, I understand what you’re saying, but not enough to feel comfortable to jump in and do it myself. My electrical skills go as far as light switches, receptacles and knowing enough not to go beyond my abilities. I was looking for something simple, so I don’t have to crawl in the attic and run wires right now.

[Stephen Cherry]

A PLC? Que amigo?

http://factorymation.info/catalog/fmcat_sg2_specs.pdf

[Rob Price]

Boy, I think the simple plan (and cheap) would be to put a switch on the circuit for your DC, put it next to the light switch. When you leave for the day, turn the switch off and your DC won't fire up on it's own. Insead of going with a remote I just installed a couple of 3 way switches strategically through the shop for my DC. I'm almost always within one step of the DC switch. That's going to change with the lathe I'm about to buy- I can't find any 4 way 20A switches though at the local big box store- but that's a different thread, I 'll stop there.

[Curt Harms]

Boy, I think the simple plan (and cheap) would be to put a switch on the circuit for your DC, put it next to the light switch. When you leave for the day, turn the switch off and your DC won't fire up on it's own. Insead of going with a remote I just installed a couple of 3 way switches strategically through the shop for my DC. I'm almost always within one step of the DC switch. That's going to change with the lathe I'm about to buy- I can't find any 4 way 20A switches though at the local big box store- but that's a different thread, I 'll stop there.

That's the benefit of the low voltage control. You can have as many start/stop stations as you want and no interference problems and I'd imagine you could use lamp cord or something like it rather than conduit or Romex. Of course low voltage has more pieces.

[Mike Cruz]

Thanks for the link, but I still have NO idea what it is... :) No need to explain, though. Obviously way over my head, and I simply don't need to know.

[Alan Schaffter]

That's the benefit of the low voltage control. You can have as many start/stop stations as you want and no interference problems and I'd imagine you could use lamp cord or something like it rather than conduit or Romex. Of course low voltage has more pieces.

I agree 100%. That is why before I went to a machine-triggered, fully automatic system, I installed a multi-station low voltage control. I've got 5 control stations all wired with cheap, very lightweight bell wire. I was lucky enough to find some cheap Delta style switch cover plates on Ebay, though I had to mount and wire small Radio Shack momentary buttons behind them since they didn't come with the button mechanism.

For anyone interested, below is a schematic of my 3 wire low voltage control. It only shows one button set but an infinite number of additional sets can be wired just like the set shown. It uses a 240V/30 amp three pole contactor with a 24V coil so also has 24Vtransformer. The benefit- all high voltage wiring is limited to the area of the contactor. Only 24V is at each button. The third set of relay contacts is used for a latching circuit- like found in all mag starters. Since I can't see my cyclone, I also added a high dust alarm that uses a lamp post day-night sensor and a little relay that turns off the DC when the level of dust gets high.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P10101043.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/P2120060.JPG

[Stephen Cherry]

For anyone interested, below is a schematic of my 3 wire low voltage control. It only shows one button set but an infinite number of additional sets can be wired just like the set shown. It uses a 240V/30 amp three pole contactor with a 24V coil so also has 24Vtransformer. The benefit- all high voltage wiring is limited to the area of the contactor. Only 24V is at each button. The third set of relay contacts is used for a latching circuit- like found in all mag starters. Since I can't see my cyclone, I also added a high dust alarm that uses a lamp post day-night sensor and a little relay that turns off the DC when the level of dust gets high.





Nice!!!!!!

[Stephen Cherry]

Thanks for the link, but I still have NO idea what it is... :) No need to explain, though. Obviously way over my head, and I simply don't need to know.

It's a little computer to monitor all of your machines, and turn on the dust collector and filter when a machine turns on, and turn each of them off after a set amount of time. Once you change to a 3 phase DC motor, you'll be able to use it to control the speed of the collector also. Plus, you can have a little control panel.

[Dan Hintz]

It's a little computer to monitor all of your machines
One word, Steve... StuxNet ;)

[Stephen Cherry]

One word, Steve... StuxNet ;)

One thing I could never understand is connecting a control system directly to the internet. When I was a real engineer, I used ethernet to communicate between everything, but remote access was with a phone modem only, with specific instructions that the phone line was to be disconnected unless it was specifically required. Of course, if I can convince Mike Cruz that he needs a PLC on his dust collector, which he does, we'll have to have it loaded up with viruses, bugs, etc.

[Mike Cruz]

I'm convinced...though I don't exactly know why. The only two questions now are how much is it and who is going to pay for it. Who is installing it is a no-brainer...now, if I could just get him on the phone... ;)

[Dan Hintz]

One thing I could never understand is connecting a control system directly to the internet.
Come on, you know the real reason... users, installers, management, etc., they're all lazy. Installers want the speed of installing one Ether line to send out all of the data to a single control point. Users want process info from the comfort of their air conditioned cubicles. QC wants to collect data from the comfort of their armchair at home. Management wants combined spreadsheets from the comfort of their beach-front property.

Seriously, though, it's for updates, remote control, etc. Until now, security of such processes wasn't high on the mind of any of the previously mentioned people. A chance was seen to take down a growing concern (fissionable material collection), and someone was sharp enough to recognize the opportunity. It's not like the average chem house would be attacked in the same way... but the door to do so is now open. If I was designing a system like that today, I'd do the exact same thing (to be fair, that's exactly how my designs are... only it's medical instruments, not centrifuges for fissionable material, and I can grab a device's complete database from 5,000 miles away at the push of a button).

Convenience... you pay for it somehow. The StuxNet virus fiasco could have been avoided is proper security measures were in place, but either no one cared or they were too relaxed about the possible consequences.