Shaper tenon tooling: 8" saw blades, i" arbor source?

[Peter Quinn]

I'm fixing to make some new windows for my house and have been thinking about working towards a better method than the router table which I have done in the past. I don't want to spend thousands on shaper tooling for the few windows I find my self making presently. So I see this old FHB article that looks just like what I was envisioning!

http://www.mustardseedbuild.com/inprint_pdfs/ms_french_doors.pdf

Well, I have both a freud and amana router bit set for sash construction, both can cope extended tenons with a stub cutter, and I'm working on getting insert knives made for the shaper to match the coping cutter on the router. I find sticking on the router table to be marginal, lots of chatter and tear out, difficult to feed versus the shaper. So I want to cope on the router, mold on the shaper, glass rabbit on the shaper. I'd like to use this as an opportunity to really get some tenons made on the shaper. I'm trying to do this on the cheap, so the $500 Garniga groover/tenon cutter I want is a bit out of the budget at present. The FHB article shows two TK rip blades on a 1" arbor with a spacer being used, much like an actual single ended tenoner would. Anybody ever tried this, and anybody know a ready source for blades with a 1" or 1 1/4" arbor hole? I suppose I could get any blade punched out at my local tooling place, but a ready made option seems it would be cheaper, I just have't found one in my searching.

As a side note, anybody know of a chart to calculate spindle speed for different pulley configurations, or a formula? I have an 1 1/4" minimax that I could get a 1" arbor for, and it slows down to 3000RPM's, but the spindles cost a small fortune which will defeat my attempt to do this cheaply. My delta does 7000RPM minimum, I have a 1" arbor for that, but 7000rpm is too fast for the 7"-8" blades needed to make tenons this size. The guy in the article steps down the speed with a smaller motor pulley. Just not sure what size would be required?

Any thoughts or experiences on the subject are appreciated.

[Rod Sheridan]

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Hi, as you indicated any tool maker will bore the blades to your arbour diameter.

I've used FS Tools for that as they are just up the road from me.

I'm fortunate in that my shaper ansd saw have a 30mm arbour so I use my dado blades for the exact purpose you mentioned..........Regards, Rod.

P.S. I've included my chart for my shaper.

[Stephen Cherry]

Peter, How long of a tenon are we talking about?

[Mike Heidrick]

Forrest or Ridge carbide 8" or 10" dado stacks in 1" arbor (used on RAS) are what I have seen some boys use on the felders owners group (or course theirs are 30mm or get them drilled for 1 1/4"). Make sure you use a tenon hood and be safe. I would use the MM. Mike Jackson at leitztooling will bore the blades for you, so will Forrest.

[David Kumm]

I use dados as well for slotting. If I were to order an additional spindle it would be the 3/4 and bush it out. That allows for the use of smaller cutters periodically. If I need a profile that won't be used much I use the 3/4 Grizzly type because they are cheap. Most of the time I prefer the 1.25 but at least the additional spindle is multi use. By the time you redo the pulley on the Delta you can pay for at least part of the spindle. Dave

[Paul Grothouse]

Call Charles Schmidt, they have a tenon system that uses corregated steel inserts. This is the ticket, it will profile and tenon in one pass. It will not cost any more than a good door set and the saw blades you are talking about.

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, How long of a tenon are we talking about?

I'm looking at 2" max on a standard sash frame. I need to make the cheek cuts in one pass with a spacer between two blades, then make the shoulder cuts on either TS or RAS, probably TS. I'm trying to make them historically accurate, more as an exercise than as a strict requirement.

[Stephen Cherry]

I'm looking at 2" max on a standard sash frame. I need to make the cheek cuts in one pass with a spacer between two blades, then make the shoulder cuts on either TS or RAS, probably TS. I'm trying to make them historically accurate, more as an exercise than as a strict requirement.


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Here's the cutters I've been using for tenons, and they work great, but no pattern.



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One idea would be to use something like the arrangemant above. Of course, a pair of coping discs from schmidt would be better, but not cheap. What you may be able to do is cut the tenon in two steps. To get 2 inches from this, you would might be able to get away with cutting the bottom of the board with the top cutter, then raising the spindle to cut the top with the bottom cutter. Two steps, with room for inaccuracy, but it's easy enough to use something like a wixey digital height gauge to dial in spindle height accurately. Either cutter could have the shape you want on it, and having the cutters on one spindle would handle the alignment of the top and bottom shoulders.


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Here is some guy playing with his toy.

[Brad Shipton]

Peter, here is a link to some examples on David Best's website. Felder usually has some good deals on these large bore blades. I have big cutters for this, but I too have thought about using blades.

http://www.davidpbest.com/VA/StonehorseShop/Tenon%20Hoods/Tenon_Hoods.htm

Brad

[Stephen Cherry]

Peter, here is a link to some examples on David Best's website. Felder usually has some good deals on these large bore blades. I have big cutters for this, but I too have thought about using blades.

http://www.davidpbest.com/VA/StonehorseShop/Tenon Hoods/Tenon_Hoods.htm

Brad

I think that I bought one of those sets from David Best. Super nice dado blades, but not within the realm of cheap. I think one set could be split up to use the outside blade on one side of the tenon, and the opposite outside blade on the other. Another option would be to get a dado set from craigslist and have it opened up.

[Doug Mason]

When I was recently looking for a shaper I came accross a chairmaker (he made some nice stuff!) who used saw blades on his shaper to cut tenons. And I think they were just normal blades--and he said he sent them to Weaver for boring. So contacting Weaver is another option for their input.

[Brad Shipton]

Stephen, I agree you can have blades re-bored, but make sure you ask how they will do it. Any specialty blade company would be fine, but I bought some Garniga blades and the supplier sent them to a machinst to have the pin holes bored. The machinst did not do a good job. One had to be sent back, and the other sure does not fit perfectly.

[Stephen Cherry]

Stephen, I agree you can have blades re-bored, but make sure you ask how they will do it. Any specialty blade company would be fine, but I bought some Garniga blades and the supplier sent them to a machinst to have the pin holes bored. The machinst did not do a good job. One had to be sent back, and the other sure does not fit perfectly.

Here there doing it with a double blade on the saw. If I had a few to do, and did not want to put down big money for the tooling, this iw how I would do it:

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=3233

That said, I don't want to start off another sawstop debate. Every time I see this sort of thing, I wonder how people kept their fingers over the course of a career.

[Peter Quinn]

Wow, thanks for all the great responses gentlemen. As usual lots of great input! I love the links to David Best and the vintage machinery manual! Great stuff. I looked at every option. The schmidt heads run around $250 plus knives, so I guess that puts them in the $350 range? Not crazy, double that for a pair to do it in one shot, plus knives to match for sticking in HSS, I'm looking at close to $900, for me too much for a run of 5 sash. But it would open up great capacity for the future. I have a set of 5/8" brass spacers for the TS, made to space two blades for tenons. THey were my grandfathers, thats how he did it. I have a tenon jig, not my favorite method, but that might be the cheapest way out though it gets me no closer to my goal making tenons on the shaper. I've been looking for a good used tenon disk set for several years that I could afford or an auction of which I was the winner, so far no luck. I do have one massive 200MM disk from Lueco, one half of a set meant to go on a tenoner or molder, that will do 2 3/8" , so that may be a good option in two passes?

I followed Rod's suggestion of FS tool (I like their blades, never thought of them for this), turns out Ridge carbide is a distrubutor? Which led me to Mike's suggestion of a ridge dado set. I could use a 1" bore dado for the RAS, but that really needs to be a 10" to get past the motor on my 14" DeWalt. I can't spin a 10" on my little shaper without wearing depends. I don't need additional slot cutting capacity for the shaper as I have a dial euro groover that covers from 1/2" to 15/16" with a flawless cut. The dado sets runs close to $300 bored for 1 1/4". I can't imagine 2 full dado king sets bored 1 1/4" would be cheap, though I could go into timber framing with that set up! But Ridge does have 7 1/4" blades in the $50 range that may work, and it looks like they increase the bore for around $20 per hole, so that may be my best option short run from a low cost perspective that meets the single pass requirement. I am going to give them a call later this week as they don't have a bore option on these blades on their site.


Thanks again for all the great ideas. Its been invaluable to help me expand and focus my thinking. Peter

[Mike Heidrick]

Call or send a not to Mike Jackson at Leitz tooling first. He comes up with some awesome tooling on ebay. He might have the perfect setup.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Peter, I simply use the two outside blades from my set, I don't have two sets of dado cutters.............Rod.

[Peter Quinn]

Hi Peter, I simply use the two outside blades from my set, I don't have two sets of dado cutters.............Rod.That's my plan for this. I'm thinking if I can buy just the two outer blades tha I need for this operation it might be cheaper than a whole set with chippers. The quandary for me is bore size. My TS is 5/8" and I have a dado for that. I both shapers have 3/4" spindles, one also has 1", the other has a slider and also a 1 1/4" spindle. I have a slider I could add to the smaller shaper. My ras is 1" but needs at least a 10" blade, so a full 8" dado set doesn't get menmuch more utility than two matched blades. Do you like the method of cutting cheaks with twin blades on the shaper? I wonder if inwere to buy a dado dedicated for this purpose if it wouldn't be better in my case just to go ahead and buy the adjustable groover heads that split for cutting tenon given I'd bemire than half way there at that point?

[Brad Shipton]

Peter, another idea if the costs keep adding up is to get in touch with Joe Calhoon (member here). He owns Cascade Woodworking and he builds all sorts of custom tilt turn windows in CO. He also offers a window building course in conjunction with Rangate. I bet they could whip up the stock on his martin machines very quickly since he has lots of the custom cutter stacks for windows. Getting all the little rebates for the window stripping seems like a chore if you are building a lot of these. Did you look at the Garniga website yet? You may find some useful window building ideas there after looking at their cutters.

Brad

[Rod Sheridan]

If you are willing to spend the money to purchase the adjustable gropvers, then yes you would be ahead.

In my case the spindle size was the same so I was OK............Rod.

[Joe Calhoon]

Brad,I don't have a very good (cost effective) system for historic windows. We have some of the tooling for this and use it combined with rebate cutters stacked on the Martin shaper.

Peter, you won't go wrong just getting a couple saw blades with 1 1/4 bore. I had a 10" blade bored to fit the shaper and use it a lot for different things. Mostly grooving US style rebated jambs for Q lon. This is a simple accurate way to make tenons on the shaper. We have even used stacked 14" slider blades in the shaper to make timber frame tenons. You don't have the massive chip load like a conventional tenon head either. Cutting the shoulders on a saw after is a little extra work but for a few pieces not bad. If you have a good sliding table and the workpiece is held tightly it is a lot safer than doing this on a table saw.

Joe

[Brad Shipton]

Joe, apparently I need to read the first post closer. :) I missed they were historic. I have to give Peter a lot of credit. I typically end up with new expensive cutters from somewhere for a project like this.

Brad

[Peter Quinn]

Brad, presently I'm LOL at the question "Have you seen the garniga catalogue", because I am a catalogue junky, and that one is possibly my favorite. I'm a sucker for sharp shiny things! I have the digital version on disk in my lap top pretty much permanently. My side business/home repair needs/hobby is not successful/well funded enough to actually acquire much of their goods, but I can dream! My wife makes fun of me every time I flip through the files. "Not that again....." I particularly appreciate their fenestration section!

So I am familiar with both Garniga and Rangate (I got the catalogue and one of my two garniga cutters from them). I was in touch with Gregory at Rangate earlier this year, and apparently there is a gentleman right here in my state (CT) that has taken the alpine window workshop and has the tooling and equipment to produce tilt turn unipoint windows as part of his millwork operation. I have a friend that has some french casement windows, double hungs, and doors made with this system, actually by a company from Canada, and they are truly fantastic. Beyond weather tight, very functional, great locking system. I love them. I was given a contact to discuss the possibility of buying some windows locally that I might help make as a learning experience, but a few things came up that made that impossible to do this year. Maybe next.

The second floor of my oversized 100 year old bungalow has never been finished. Just open space presently. There are four windows in two dormers, and the sash may fall out soon if unattended, so I have boarded them up , will restore those which can be, several lower sash are beyond restoration and will be remade. I had hoped to replace them with tilt turn sash this year, but its not going to happen, so plan B is restore. Next spring I plan to make some changes to my kitchen, and that will include two new window units, but my wife and I have decided its better for aesthetic reasons to replace them with something as close as possible to the originals. For better and sometimes worse this old house is largely original, which is part of its charm. The originals lasted over 100 years, so its not a bad design, but I do hope to improve the improve the air resistance and I hope to recycle the wavy antique glass if it comes out in one piece, because the way it refracts light I find quite charming. People pay a fortune for restoration glass, my home is full of it!


Joe, great to know the saw blades perform well on the shaper. It never occurred to me before last week to try this. Makes sense, my shaper spindle is far more robust generally than my cabinet saw arbor. It seems easier to set the height on a shaper than a TS with tenon jig, and my ceiling height is low, so long rails have been a problem on the TS. I have used dowels or loose tenons in those cases, would prefer integral tenons, particularly for this project. Any suggestions for blade type for this operation? I see dado blades are popular, so maybe an ATB with raker?

[Paul Grothouse]

If Schmidt is too much then don't even bother with Garniga. Don't get me wrong this is the most awesome tooling you can buy. I have a lock miter cutter (1 cutter) that cost almost $1k, but you need to use it a lot to make it worth it.

[Stephen Cherry]

http://www.buybyrdtool.com/product.php?productid=560&cat=80&page=1

here's some byrd cutters that might work to produce a tenon, 8"DIA X 12T X 7/16"TH X 3/4"B

[Brad Shipton]

Peter, I believe it was Joe that got me started on the Garniga catalog a years back after reading some of his discussions on the woodweb. I don't share how often I look thru it. I figured you must have it given your work background. The handiest cutter I have ever purchased is the Multi-uso, it was expensive, but worth it for me.

Thanks for sharing the info about the home you are restoring. That sounds like a great project. I have always wanted to restore a historic home, but I probably should finish the 70's vintage one I am doing now. The kitchens seem to be the hardest to restore given all the things we expect to have in a kitchen these days compared to the past.

Brad

[Joe Calhoon]

Peter, the old windows and glass have a lot of charm, they should be preserved whenever possible. Insulated glass has been the downfall of good window design in historic buildings. My daughter lives in San Diego where they have a lot of 100 year old bungalows with nice divided lite windows. They rehab a lot of these and new windows always stick out like a sore thumb. At least to my eye.

I think insulated storm windows might be the best way to make a historic house energy efficient in the cold climates. Historic houses in Germany had a box type window with a hinged storm sash. Both swing in. They use the same type window for restoration work only with better gaskets and sometimes IGU on one of the sashes.

The blades I use on the shaper are all ATB. Not rakers but more of a combination blade. I never tried anything else. The raker type might be the way to go. I admit to being a tooling junkie also. It is a expensive habit.

Joe

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks for the info Joe. I think I'm going to try a box joint set from Forrest. It gets me two 8" blades in an ATB-R format, 24 tooth I believe. Just over $100 plus bore charges seems reasonable for two Forrest blades. Plus I suppose I can bush these down to use on the TS if needed. As a set they make either 1/4" or 3/8" grooves, or they have a thin kerf version that makes 3/16" or 5/16" grooves. Seems like the shaper should be able to spin the full kerf version though? Guess I'll find out!