Upgrading table saw motor. Goofy idea?

[George Gyulatyan]

Hello,

I have a Jet ProShop 10 saw. It's OK for the most part, except when ripping thick stock like 8/4 hard maple with full kerf sawblade. I have managed to get the motor stalled a couple of times. So, I've been wondering, is there a reason why I shouldn't put a higher horsepower motor on it, such as a Leeson 3HP table saw motor?


Thanks,

George

[Cary Falk]

Hello,

I have a Jet ProShop 10 saw. It's OK for the most part, except when ripping thick stock like 8/4 hard maple with full kerf sawblade. I have managed to get the motor stalled a couple of times. So, I've been wondering, is there a reason why I shouldn't put a higher horsepower motor on it, such as a Leeson 3HP table saw motor?


Thanks,

George

My first guess is that the trunnion was not designed to hold the weight of a 3 hp motor.

[jim mills]

Get a decent low tooth count rip blade and you should be fine.

[Josiah Bartlett]

My first guess is that the trunnion was not designed to hold the weight of a 3 hp motor.

The weight difference between a 1.5 and a 3hp motor in the same NEMA frame is negligible, expecially given that a 3hp motor requires 240V and doesn't need as many windings as a dual voltage motor.

[Carl Beckett]

Bearing sizing? Sometimes the drive train is sized for a certain hp ratingBut my guess on this type of a product is they go one design fits all for the drivetrain and bearings, and then just use different size motors. Not sure thoughA good Thin curf blade can make a big differenceI would choose to use the upgrade money in a different way, but that's just me

[david brum]

George, You will probably damage your contractor's saw by installing a heavier motor on it. Aside from the extra torque which could break or bend something, the motor mounting trunnion will probably twist when you need to tilt the motor for a bevel cut. That means inaccurate, burned cuts.

As an alternative, you might be surprised at how cheaply used cabinet saws are going for these days.

[Don Jarvie]

I'm sure you can find a 3hp motor that will weigh around the same as what you have and could be wired for 110. The downside is it will be expensive at least 300 plus even on the bay. Save you money and start looking for a used cab saw.

Don

[Cary Falk]

The weight difference between a 1.5 and a 3hp motor in the same NEMA frame is negligible, expecially given that a 3hp motor requires 240V and doesn't need as many windings as a dual voltage motor.

That's weird. My 3hp Unisaw motor was way heavier then my 1.5hp contractor saw motor. The Unisaw motor doesn't really have a frame, just a couple
of tabs.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Bearing sizing? Sometimes the drive train is sized for a certain hp rating But my guess on this type of a product is they go one design fits all for the drive train and bearings, and then just use different size motors. Not sure though a good Thin kerf blade can make a big differenceI would choose to use the upgrade money in a different way, but that's just meBoth the Delta contractor's saw and the Uni use the same bearings on their arbors- 6203 RS. This item has been beat to death over the years.

[Josiah Bartlett]

That's weird. My 3hp Unisaw motor was way heavier then my 1.5hp contractor saw motor. The Unisaw motor doesn't really have a frame, just a couple
of tabs.
They aren't the same NEMA type, either. While weights can vary some, they are usually almost the same for the same motor family from a given manufacturer. Duty cycle, number of poles, whether the motor is ODP or TEFC, and other things make the weight vary. More modern motor designs are usually lighter than older ones, and are also more efficient. Most of the weight is in the rotor and the case.

I've got a 5 hp single phase WEG TEFC motor that is far lighter than a 10 year older 2hp single phase motor.

[George Gyulatyan]

Thanks all for the great advice. I had similar concenrs regarding the trunnions and what the increased torque might do, although 220V is not an issue.

I was thinking I might get some Tim Allen references there for my goofy idea, but instead got some sound advice. Plus, the prices for these are around $400-$600. So as someone pointed out, money can be spent in better ways.

I just got the 20T WWII blade, just for that reason, so I'm going to give that a try.

Thank you all,

George

[Harvey Pascoe]

No, I don't think its a goofy idea, people do it all the time. Question is, is the saw worth it. Good motors are expensive. The Leeson 3 hp, 230V motor weighs 54 lbs. The Leeson 1.5 HP motor is 45 lbs.

So far as I know most saw mfgrs. use the same saw frame for all motor sizes so there should be no problem there. Check with Jet and see if they don't offer the same saw with 1, 1.5, and 3 hp motors. But, if your saw has aluminum instead of cast iron trunions, forget about it.

[scott spencer]

It'd sure be a lot easier and cheaper to put a good 3/32" thin kerf 24T FTG blade on it. It's recommended for saws with motors of less than 3hp. Double check the alignment too. I had a similar Craftsman 22124 that would cut to full blade height with a good 24T TK blade.

[Harvey Pascoe]

Thanks all for the great advice. I had similar concenrs regarding the trunnions and what the increased torque might do, although 220V is not an issue.

I was thinking I might get some Tim Allen references there for my goofy idea, but instead got some sound advice. Plus, the prices for these are around $400-$600. So as someone pointed out, money can be spent in better ways.

I just got the 20T WWII blade, just for that reason, so I'm going to give that a try.

Thank you all,

George

Let us know how that works out. I have my doubts that 1/32" is going to reduce your load all that much. In theory, it would be 25% but I don't detect a lot of difference with mine. If your blades are loaded up with resin on the tooth sides, that will cause huge amounts of friction so with a brand new blade you will note quite a difference at first until it loads up.

[David Nelson1]

I just got the 20T WWII blade, just for that reason, so I'm going to give that a try.

You'll be quite pleased with the added performance of the large gullets and less teeth. I was using a 30 tooth thin glue blade to rip 4/4 oak (which is the max for that blade) with a unifeeder. That was a disaster, the feed rate was way to high. Feeding the stock by hand was slow @ best. Switched to a WWII, the saws performance is greatly increased although highly figured woods require a bit more of a grunt. The hp rating on my saw is 1 1/2 and its still under powered but workable.

[scott spencer]

Let us know how that works out. I have my doubts that 1/32" is going to reduce your load all that much. In theory, it would be 25% but I don't detect a lot of difference with mine. If your blades are loaded up with resin on the tooth sides, that will cause huge amounts of friction so with a brand new blade you will note quite a difference at first until it loads up.

I noticed a significant difference when switching between like blades of 3/32" thin kerf and 1/8" full kerf on my contractor and hybrid saw. A 3/32" TK blade is 25% thinner than a 1/8" full, or a 1/8" full kerf is 33% thicker than a 3/32" TK....whichever way you slice it, that difference is pretty substantial, and your motor definitely sees it. If all other variables are the same, the 3/32" thin kerf should always require less force to feed, which is especially noticeable when ripping thick materials and nearing the stall point.

Trying a good 3/32" 24T TK ripper (whether Forrest, Freud, Infinity, CMT, DW, Amana, Tenryu, or other) is definitely worth a shot before going to the trouble and expense of getting a bigger motor.

[Joe Angrisani]

.....I just got the 20T WWII blade, just for that reason, so I'm going to give that a try.....

Please follow-up and let us know what you found, George.

Thanks!

[Dave Aronson]

I have the same problem with my Jet contractor table saw. I just purchased the Freud 24T rip blade thin kerf. I'll report on the results. I was thinking of replacing the motor with a 2hp single phase motor. I would think that wouldn't affect the trunions too much.

[George Gyulatyan]

Please follow-up and let us know what you found, George.

Thanks!

Will certainly do so over the weekend, Joe. Can't wait to see how it goes. For reference, until now I've been using the Freud 40T Glue Line Rip FK blade. It does produce nice smooth cuts.

The WWII 20T blade is also full kerf. I'll give that a try before attempting the TK versions, although I am thinking getting the TK version of Freud Glue Line blade might not be a bad idea for making final cuts in thick pieces, just because I am pretty sure the WWII will give rougher cuts, making trips to the jointer necessary.

Trips to the jointer are no big deal for 90* cuts, but setting the fence on that thing is such a hassle that I'd rather not have to deal with for jointing angled cuts.

[George Gyulatyan]

Now that the conversation has turned to TK blades, how much do blade stabilizers decrease depth of cut?

[scott spencer]

Will certainly do so over the weekend, Joe. Can't wait to see how it goes. For reference, until now I've been using the Freud 40T Glue Line Rip FK blade. It does produce nice smooth cuts.

The WWII 20T blade is also full kerf. I'll give that a try before attempting the TK versions, although I am thinking getting the TK version of Freud Glue Line blade might not be a bad idea for making final cuts in thick pieces, just because I am pretty sure the WWII will give rougher cuts, making trips to the jointer necessary.

Trips to the jointer are no big deal for 90* cuts, but setting the fence on that thing is such a hassle that I'd rather not have to deal with for jointing angled cuts.

The Freud 30T glue line rippers (LM74/LM75) aren't recommended for materials over 1" thick. They have very tight side clearances which gives them highly polished edges, but can also cause burning in thick materials...though just trimming an edge might not cause that problem. Something like the 30T WWII TK is better suited for thicker materials than the 30T GLR's IMO. Many of the better 24T rippers are marginally capable of a glue ready edge as is.

Stabilizers definitely limit blade height...how much depends on their diameter. You might find that you don't need a stabilizer, so it's worth trying without first.

Here are some tips for picking saw blades (http://lumberjocks.com/knotscott/blog/12395) for you if you're interested.

[Steve Griffin]

I upgraded the motor to my Rigid contractor style saw when the stock one finally burnt out after about a million miles of cutting. I went with Grizzly H5382, which is a 2 HP induction motor. I kept it to 110 volt.

It was a bigger improvement than I expected. It has noticeably more power, and also runs quieter with less vibration. Sort of hums with the sound of a nice cabinet saw now.

I don't think I would want to try a 3HP or 220 on this level of saw, but a modest upgrade in motor is seems to be no problem.

[Kevin Presutti]

I believe the recommended stabilizer diameter is directly proportional to the blade diameter by 1/2. I think it is on Forrest's website. I'm sure I have read that somewhere. :confused:

[Leo Graywacz]

I can stall my 3HP motor on my Delta UniSaw pretty easy pushing 8/4 hard maple through it. 7 1/2 HP is when you start to be able to do a lot more without a lot of chances of bogging down.

3HP will be a substantial improvement if it doesn't rip itself apart under heavy load.

[Harvey Pascoe]

Well, I use 7.5" Matsushita blades with .060" kerf on a 3hp saw and it goes through anything like a hot knife thru butter. But then, my work is small. But I know from experience that an underpowered saw is no fun and a thin kerf blade is a stop-gap measure that will have him wanting a more powerful saw as soon as he starts stretching the limits of the thin kerf.

[Harvey Pascoe]

A low tooth count is just another stop gap measure that causes other problems. Fewer teeth means each one is doing more work and will dull faster and you'll be sending out for sharpening that much more often. Plus, it works harder, builds more heat.

[Harvey Pascoe]

That's weird. My 3hp Unisaw motor was way heavier then my 1.5hp contractor saw motor. The Unisaw motor doesn't really have a frame, just a couple
of tabs.

The difference between the Leeson 1.5 and 3 hp motors designed for the unisaw is nine pounds. Isn't a contractors saw designed to be light and portable, so why would you expect it to have a heavy motor in it? Unisaw motors are rated for continuous duty. I doubt a contractor's saw is.

[George Gyulatyan]

Will certainly do so over the weekend, Joe.
My apologies for not following up with this. Life decided to get in the way of my weekend plans :) One of the water pipes burst in the house, so, figured this would be an opportunity to upgrade to copper. By my projections, I won't be able to get to blade comparison for a couple of weeks.

[George Gyulatyan]

Today I got a chance to try out the new WWII 20 tooth blade and compare it against the Freud GLR on some hard maple. The piece was already planed to about 1 1/2".

I was definitely able to feed the piece through at a faster rate with the WWII and overall it felt like the piece was going through a lot more easily. Also, even more importantly, there were no burns. The cut quality was somewhat rougher, but not by much, certainly not as bad as I thought it would be.

Here is the picture of the cut made with the WWII:
212226

This one is a cut I made with the Freud Glue Line Rip blade:
212227

The next one is also a cut I made with the Freud Glue Line Rip blade, except after reading the little instruction sheet that came with the WWII. In the troubleshooting section, a recommendation they make for preventing burning is to raise the blade about 1" to 2" above the workpiece . I raised the blade a little over 1" and made the cut, and...
212228

As you can see there is much less burning with the blade raised higher than what would most recommend, something to keep in mind. Note that there is still some burning compared to none with the WWII, which is due to the fact that the feed rate was still slower with the Freud GLR blade.

Also note that the burning occurs on both halves of the piece, showing that this is not due to misalignment.

One other observation. The WWII's kerf is a hair thinner than Freud GLR's as I could tell from the very slight gap in my ZCI which was made by the Freud. Incidentally, according to Freud's website, their full kerf blades are .126" rather than .125".

[Mark Godlesky]

Thanks for following up with the results. Interesting about the higher blade.

[Rick Fisher]

I am another fan of a better blade..

I use a 24 Tooth Tenryu industrial blade that cuts effortlessly.. I am a believer that blade is more important than HP with a Cabinet saw.

[Gary Kman]

Reducing the blade diameter from 10" to 8" will increase the force applied to the teeth by 20% without adding any additional load to your saw.

[David Hostetler]

Why not just go with a thin kerf ripping blade? I have no problems ripping 8/4 maple, walnut, pecan, or mesquite on my 1.5HP Ryobi... You saying your Jet isn't up to that job? Something isn't right with that statement...

[George Gyulatyan]

Why not just go with a thin kerf ripping blade? I have no problems ripping 8/4 maple, walnut, pecan, or mesquite on my 1.5HP Ryobi... You saying your Jet isn't up to that job? Something isn't right with that statement...
It is :) With the right blade ;) Which was the point of the above comparison as requested by some in this thread.

WWII ripped just fine as shown above, and it is a full kerf blade.

And as Scott correctly pointed out above, the Freud GLR blades aren't designed for 8/4 material anyway, so I was pushing it beyond what it was designed for.

[Jerome Hanby]

[QUOTE=George Gyulatyan;1803603And as Scott correctly pointed out above, the Freud GLR blades aren't designed for 8/4 material anyway, so I was pushing it beyond what it was designed for.[/QUOTE]

Well I've managed to buy and use that blade without ever noticing anything about 8/4 being outside its design specs. Guess I've just been lucky and never had it mounted when I ripped 8/4 (rarely). Which Freud would be suitable for ripping that thickness?

[Dale Cruea]

I had a RAS that would stall on heavy cuts. It was wired 110v. I changed it to 220V and solved the problem.
I use a 1/8" blade on my 110v 1.5hp Delta contractor saw and unless I really hurry the cut it works OK.
I have to let it pick its way through hard stuff but no burns and it does not stall.

[George Gyulatyan]

Well I've managed to buy and use that blade without ever noticing anything about 8/4 being outside its design specs. Guess I've just been lucky and never had it mounted when I ripped 8/4 (rarely). Which Freud would be suitable for ripping that thickness?
Jerome, per Freud's website for the LM74M/R blade, the "ideal working range is from 1/8" to 1" thick". http://www.freudtools.com/p-34-glue-line-rippingbr-nbsp.aspx

The Heavy Duty Rip 24T blade (LM72M/R) states "ideal working range is from 3/4" to 2-3/4" thick". http://www.freudtools.com/p-35-heavy-duty-ripbr-nbsp.aspx

I haven't had issues going through 8/4 mahogany with the Freud GLR, but maple has definitely been a challenge.

HTH.