Joinery Saw

[Derek Cohen]

Taking a break from cutting what seems like an endless procession of dovetails, I decided to make a joinery saw. This has been on my list of saws to make for a while. It compliments the carcase saw I built recently. There is a family resemblance in the designs of the two saws.

The plan was for a 9" long plate with 1 1/2" of cutting area and 16 ppi crosscut. The carcase saw is essentially a larger version, with a 14" long plate, 2 1/4" cutting area and 14 ppi crosscut.

The joinery plate is also a slimmer 0.018" thick.

The build was not uneventful. Don't you hate it when this happens ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Joinery%20Saw/1Padauk.jpg


That was Padauk, from a chunk that was a Christmas present. It was always a borderline choice as it felt soft and brittle. Then I was not careful enough when chiseling the mortices for the screws. Live and learn ...

In the end I used the same Jarrah board that I had for the carcase saw.

Here is the joinery saw (apologies for the pictures which do not do justice to the grain) ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Joinery%20Saw/2JoinerySaw.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Joinery%20Saw/3JoinerySaw.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Joinery%20Saw/4JoinerySaw.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Joinery%20Saw/5JoinerySaw.jpg


Klaus (Two Lawyers Toolworks) asked me a question anout the handles of these saws ..


Hi Derek,
... One thing: the rear line of both of the grips is nearly straight. Maybe you feel that to be comfortable. Then all is good. Perhaps you should try to make a handle in your own shape which has a hump at the rear side of the grip just to compare the comfort. I'm pretty sure that you' d like the different feeling.
Regards
Klaus
Klaus' question reminded me of the one of the design features of the saws, something that I have failed to emphasize, and one which I would enjoy hearing comments about.

What I have here for handles is something a little different from those (with the "hump") that I have made in the past. I suspect that others, such as Andrew Lunn (ex-Eccentric Toolworks), have done similar, although their reasoning may be different from mine (and perhaps it is the same ...?).

Here is one of Andrew's dovetail saws ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Joinery%20Saw/dovetail1.jpg

My aim is to not only have a comfortable handle, but also to create a controlled grip. The comfort comes from sizing the handle to my palm, and including enough of a "bump" to fit into the palm. It is there but disguised by the second factor, which goes to control.

The second feature is that the handle is triangulated. That is, it is thicker at the base. What this does is support the underside of the hand, and lift it up, where it snuggles into the underside of the horn. The underside of the horn is where I believe the control lies.

Here is a picture of Ernest Joyce using a tenon saw. Note how he uses his thumb on the upper horn to lighten the weight on the saw ...

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq141/rpsl4725/IMG_4519.jpg

A while back Chris Schwarz posted something similar. In his case he used the lower horns to do the same thing.

Link: http://lostartpress.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/i-found-a-use-for-my-lower-horn/

That's my theory anyway. I do find the saws very comfortable to use.

Regards from Perth
Derek

[Bill Moser]

Beautiful work, as usual, Derek! Do you have the build process documented on your site?

Edit: found your carcase saw page, I didn't realize Mike Wenzloff sold blades & brass backs separately.

[Zach England]

Can they fly? Freakin' awesome.

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

Agreed Derek. You do some incredible work. As a fellow professional (albeit a different discipline) I always wonder where you find the time!!??

Keep up the great work. It is fun to watch you produce.

Oh.

Your website is AWESOME!

Three years ago I decided to build your shooting board ... (it's gonna happen, yes, it's gonna happen :D)

Best,

Jeff

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Hi Derek,

I'm not sure if we aren't talking about apples and oeanges right now. A bump at the rear side of the grip doesn't necessarily influence the functional design of a handle. In other words it is possible to make a handle with specific girth relations of the grip, with defined horn positions and with a given hang angle with or without a hump. The contact the palm has with the bottom horn will be the same. So the "horn control" of the saw will be possible in the same way either with bump or without.

Those are interesting pics of Ernest Joyce's sawing technique. He uses a saw that is designed to be used with the 3 finger grip with a 4 finger grip. So my guess would be that the unusual position of the little finger isn't choosen to get some more horn control but because of the little finger has no space in the grip hole. Regarding the pics my further guess is that the sawyer would like to have a steeper hang angle.

I agree completely, that the bottom horn can give some extra control. Especially while starting a cut it's a very good idea to avoid any downforce. Some heavy backed saws should even be slightly lifted to reach an easier and better controlled start. Then the bottom horn might come into play. After the kerf is installed, the bottom horn shouldn't be forced down any longer because you want to have the heft of the saw to do the cut. I like to do a step more and do add some downforce while sawing (not on all saws however). Then the hump serves well since it fills the palm. And: by far the most vintage back saws have humped handles. The old tool makers knew exactly what they did. That`s an experience I made several times.

My conclusion is that many woodworkers prefer the humped handles on a saw, me included. Others might like straight handle backs better. The control of the saw will be able in the same way with either of the handles.

That to be said, I really like the sportive design of your handles, the flawless execution and the CI they show. They don't leave a doubt about the stable they are coming from.

Regards
Klaus