Help Required With Epilog Laser Issue

[Hamid Taqui]

Hi Folks,
I recently bought an Epilog Mini 24, Manufactured in 2005 and supplied by Identify in Ireland. I have tried to contact the customer support for Epilog here in the UK but it is absolutely useless. 3 Weeks down the road I'm no further than I started in trying to resolve the issue so I'm hoping you experienced chaps will be able to help diagnose the issue before I spend a small fortune on parts in a guessing game.

I have gone through the forum and tried a few things that have been advised to people with similar issues but no luck.

Basically the problem I am having is the laser is not vectoring smooth, as can be seen in the pictures.

http://www.ndc.co.uk/hamtt/epilog-1.jpg

http://www.ndc.co.uk/hamtt/epilog-2.jpg

I have cleaned the reader strip/reader, tensioned the belts, greased the rails etc etc but still no luck. The x-axis motor was replaced on the machine a few months ago.

The test engraves in the pictures were done at about 20% speed. The problem is significantly worse at faster speeds.

The strange thing is the problem can be replicated almost exactly independant of where you engrave on the bed, in other words, the kinks in the circles appear at exactly the same location on the circle independant of where I engrave on the bed. It's almost as if its a software issue however I have tried printing from adobe and direct from a pdf but still the same. The only thing I cant rule out is a driver issue (I have the latest driver and firmware installed).

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Michael Hunter]

Have exactly the same problem with my 32EX. Identify (Bristol) did their best to help and even sent samples to Epilog in the 'States, but no resolution was found.

I think that the problem splits into 2 sections -

1 The circle algorythm is not as good as it might be, but works much better at speeds below 20%.
2 Wear in the X-beam carriage bearing exacerbates the problem.*

Depending on the size of the circle, it sometimes helps to draw it as four arcs (welded to be one object, but NOT joined using "close path").

* I first noticed the problem with circles when the machine was quite new, so it is not JUST worn bearings causing it.

[Hamid Taqui]

Have exactly the same problem with my 32EX. Identify (Bristol) did their best to help and even sent samples to Epilog in the 'States, but no resolution was found.

I think that the problem splits into 2 sections -

1 The circle algorythm is not as good as it might be, but works much better at speeds below 20%.
2 Wear in the X-beam carriage bearing exacerbates the problem.*

Depending on the size of the circle, it sometimes helps to draw it as four arcs (welded to be one object, but NOT joined using "close path").

* I first noticed the problem with circles when the machine was quite new, so it is not JUST worn bearings causing it.

Hi Michael,

The problem that I have is that it's not just circles, but anything that has a curve in it.
If you look closely at the right side of the "S" in each of the words in the first pic, you'll notice its almost a vertical line for a while before resuming.

[Mark Ross]

Hamid,

We had the same problem on a 36EXT and it started by it seeming like it was circles. Boy it was strange indeed. Here is what our issue was. Believe it or not, it was the Y Axis, not the X. It was not a bad motor or encoder, it was that the belt was slipping because a drive pulley had come loose. Find your Y axis motor. There is most likely a small belt that drives the Y motor, there will be a long bar that goes across the front of the machine. There should be two pulleys, one on the motor itself and the other attaches to that long bar on the front of the machine.

There are flat spots with allen wrench style set screws that hold those pulleys in place. See if they are loose. We re-tightened ours, threw a drop of loctite on them and have not had a problem since. Hope this helps.

[Ben Levesque]

Hi Hamid
I'm sorry to say this, but you have quite found the limit of the Epilog brand Laser. compare to what I use my laser for, your circles are quite nice.

I only model stuff at 1:220 scale and smaller, and believe me, the maximum speed I can go is always under 20%. I've work with Epilog support on this issue since 2006, and at the end they've always confirmed on the phone, (never in writing) that the laser can't achieved better result than what I am looking for, so circle are equals to oval and so forth. Oh! and quite a few major parts were replace during my trials with them.

What Michaels is suggesting to you is quite good.


List of components replaced during testing.

-X motor
-Y motor
-X rail bearing
-Motherboard
-Y rod ends holders
-Front panel circuit board

Epilog mini 18, purchased in 2006, brand new.

Ben

[Hamid Taqui]

Hamid,

We had the same problem on a 36EXT and it started by it seeming like it was circles. Boy it was strange indeed. Here is what our issue was. Believe it or not, it was the Y Axis, not the X. It was not a bad motor or encoder, it was that the belt was slipping because a drive pulley had come loose. Find your Y axis motor. There is most likely a small belt that drives the Y motor, there will be a long bar that goes across the front of the machine. There should be two pulleys, one on the motor itself and the other attaches to that long bar on the front of the machine.

There are flat spots with allen wrench style set screws that hold those pulleys in place. See if they are loose. We re-tightened ours, threw a drop of loctite on them and have not had a problem since. Hope this helps.

Have had a go at that already. There is a smaller "pulley style" belt from the motor that drives the y-axis and two y-axis belts (one on each side). I even took out teh two belts and measured them against each other to make sure one hadnt stretched slightly. Tightened the pulleys, cleaned all the belts etc but still no luck.

[Hamid Taqui]

Hi Hamid
I'm sorry to say this, but you have quite found the limit of the Epilog brand Laser. compare to what I use my laser for, your circles are quite nice.

I only model stuff at 1:220 scale and smaller, and believe me, the maximum speed I can go is always under 20%. I've work with Epilog support on this issue since 2006, and at the end they've always confirmed on the phone, (never in writing) that the laser can't achieved better result than what I am looking for, so circle are equals to oval and so forth. Oh! and quite a few major parts were replace during my trials with them.

What Michaels is suggesting to you is quite good.


List of components replaced during testing.

-X motor
-Y motor
-X rail bearing
-Motherboard
-Y rod ends holders
-Front panel circuit board

Epilog mini 18, purchased in 2006, brand new.

Ben

Surely that cant be right, I have a cheap chinese laser that I pucked up for £400 (only retails a few hundred more) and that's outperforming the epilog by a mile at the moment. The only reason we bought the epilog was because we needed a larger bed. Surely it isnt out of the question to expect a laser thats a premium brand and costs premium money to be able to perform the most basic of operations correctly.

[Michael Hunter]

Surely that cant be right, I have a cheap chinese laser that I pucked up for £400 (only retails a few hundred more) and that's outperforming the epilog by a mile at the moment. The only reason we bought the epilog was because we needed a larger bed. Surely it isnt out of the question to expect a laser thats a premium brand and costs premium money to be able to perform the most basic of operations correctly.

I agree with your sentiment here : I was caught out too (see the name of my company!)

I think the point is that Epilogs are sold as **engraving** lasers and as such will knock the spots off anything Chinese - much higher speed and significantly higher quality of engraving.

The poor beam characteristics and power control of a glass tube lead the Chinese to sell their machines primarily as **cutting** lasers, which they do very well.
The bundled control software also helps a lot compared with the simple (but very convenient) "printer driver" controls of the big name makes.

[Ben Levesque]

Nothing better than to acquire your own experience on this matter, who am I to say different.

Ben

[Scott Shepherd]

In my opinion, that's a belt/pulley issue. It's very common to see in machines with a worn belt or pulley. I had the same issue on our Universal, replaced all the belts, bearings, and pulleys, and it was gone. I think this is a very simple, mechanical issue, nothing hidden, no software or driver issues. Especially since you said it does the same thing all over the entire bed.

I'm not an Epilog tech, so don't take my word for it. Call Epilog in the USA on Monday and they'll sort it out for you.

Also, as stated, you cannot vector at full speed on any laser I know of on the market and get smooth curves. You have to back it down until it's smooth and accept that it's a weakness of ALL lasers out there.

[Greg Bednar]

Hamid - could you post your test file so we could take a look at it?

[Rodne Gold]

The poor beam characteristics and power control of a glass tube lead the Chinese to sell their machines primarily as **cutting** lasers, which they do very well.
The bundled control software also helps a lot compared with the simple (but very convenient) "printer driver" controls of the big name makes.

Not so sure thats 100% correct , I have 2 cheap chinese lasers and 6 GCC's and the chinese lasers cut better (due to increased power) and engrave just as well , the beam quality of both are indistinguishable (both synrad and Coherent tubes in the GCC's )
The chinese lasers are slower at engraving than my fastest GCC , but thats due to the larger size of the chinese machines and the heavier head and the use of steppers over servos rather than ability to control the tube , there might be some issue at very high speeds , but the laser mechanism itself is not capable of those speeds. The slower speed is an issue one can live with especially since one can buy 4-5 chinese lasers for the price of one of my Gcc's.
I can't see how this "flatted" circle is software related unless there is a fault in the way the driver interpolates circles at high speeds.
If the laser can engrave at superspeeds , then it should be able to cut at superspeeds , the power and control required for ultra fast scanning should easily translate to vectoring where there is much less stress on the motors than high speed scanning - unless of course the Y axis is somewhat compromised or has a different motor (could be the mnfgr has determined the Y does less work for engeraving and has supplied something with less control and power then the X?)

Is there perhaps a setting in the driver for vectors that involves ramping or one that has something to do with "smooth" vector curves that is either on of off and needs to be changed?
Are you sure you actually need ultra fast vector engraving for the jobs you do , unless we doing something like cutting very thin stuff , the need to get accurate cuts at high speeds are sort of academic.

[Michael Hunter]

I can't see how this "flatted" circle is software related unless there is a fault in the way the driver interpolates circles at high speeds.


My Epilog uses different curve algorythms according to speed - above and below "20%".



or has a different motor (could be the mnfgr has determined the Y does less work for engeraving and has supplied something with less control and power then the X?


The Y motor is physically much larger than the X motor, though I don't know if this difference is fully reflected in the power outputs.

My comment about the control software of Chinese lasers refers to the ability to control the change in power and/or ppi when going from a straight to a curved cut.
The Epilog driver does this automatically - the user has no control whatsoever and this is causing me considerable grief now that my tube is ageing.
In contrast, the software for the Chinese laser that I had demonstrated allows precise control over what happens at corners.

I don't have much experience of Chinese lasers and therefore tend to lump them together. The ones I have seen demonstrated ranged from table-top to BIG, but all seemed to engrave at much the same speed : i.e. very slowly compared to my Epilog. The UK importer describes the larger machines as "cutting lasers that are capable of engraving".

[Hamid Taqui]

Hamid - could you post your test file so we could take a look at it?

Hi Greg,

You can download the file I just ran off now here:
http://www.ndc.co.uk/hamtt/TEST.cdr
http://www.ndc.co.uk/hamtt/epilog-3.jpg

You can clearly see the flatlines on the curves of the S and the G in the "testing" word regardless of the speed. The issue is apparent on straight lines as well:

http://www.ndc.co.uk/hamtt/epilog-3.jpg

[Hamid Taqui]

Hi Rodne,

I dont need ultra fast vectoring, I just need it to be precise. Even at the slowest speeds I'm getting kinks in the curves (and the straights).

[Scott Shepherd]

I stand by my comments. It's belt, bearing, and/or pulley related (it's common practice to replace all of them as a wear item).

[Greg Bednar]

Hamid - you have nodes in the middle of the lines on all five side of the pentagram. Delete those nodes and retry your test. This may eliminate the problem with the pentagram. I was surprised the file is 1.33 megabytes. I had no idea why such a simple file was so large. You had crazy huge amounts of nodes all over the place. They were reduced. I didn't have your font located below the top testing word, so Corel substituted with another. But your problem wasn't there. I simplified the file and reduced it to around 30K - try this file

[Rodne Gold]

If the same artefacts appear no matter where the graphic is engraved , I think its nothing mechanical as this would most likely be linked to position on the table. I could be wrong. I don't know that machine. It must be said , that judder on the pentagram sure does look like stepper misstep or a servo going a little crazy or some sort of mechanical shift.....
Is there not a curve smoothness setting or the like somewhere lurking in the driver or on the machine itself?
Does it only do it on that file? Try gregs version....

[David Fairfield]

Can't diagnose the problem for you, but there is clearly a problem. Based on my own machine's performance, you should be getting much better vector results at the settings you indicated. Your focus also appears to be off.

Dave

[Hamid Taqui]

Hamid - you have nodes in the middle of the lines on all five side of the pentagram. Delete those nodes and retry your test. This may eliminate the problem with the pentagram. I was surprised the file is 1.33 megabytes. I had no idea why such a simple file was so large. You had crazy huge amounts of nodes all over the place. They were reduced. I didn't have your font located below the top testing word, so Corel substituted with another. But your problem wasn't there. I simplified the file and reduced it to around 30K - try this file

Hi Greg,

Here's the result using your file, at 20% power, 20% speed:

http://www.ndc.co.uk/hamtt/test-gjb.jpg

[Scott Shepherd]

Try it at a speed of 8-10%, less power. That will determine if it's speed related.

Also, rotate that image 90 degrees and run it. If the lumps are in the same places one you rotate it, that'll be key information to have.

[Hamid Taqui]

Try it at a speed of 8-10%, less power. That will determine if it's speed related.

Also, rotate that image 90 degrees and run it. If the lumps are in the same places one you rotate it, that'll be key information to have.

have done:

http://www.ndc.co.uk/hamtt/epilog-4.jpg

[Scott Shepherd]

I stand by my comments. When you rotated it, the issues stayed in the same orientation, meaning it's not a file/node issue.

I know I keep repeating myself, but when the belts/bearings/pulleys wear in a Universal, it looks very similar to that. When you replace those 3 items, the issue goes away. I've gone through it twice now, and each time, it's looked like your sample (not nearly as bad, but very small amounts of the same issues), and then when replacing those items, the issue is 100% gone.

How old is the machine? When where the belts last replaced?

[Greg Bednar]

It did, however correct the aberration on the sides of the Pentagram with the other file. So what you have going on could be, and probably is, a combination of software and hardware. Might I suggest you start with a blank page and redraw your test file on your own machine and use text with the outline only and no fill without converting the text to curves. Do not copy and paste as I did, but start anew an make another test file. Use CorelX5 as your primary program and do not use a CAD program or import a CAD program into CorelX5.

When I redid your file, I copied and pasted it and fixed what aberrations I saw in the wire-frame view and while viewing the nodes of the shapes in question. When I completed the file, the size went from 1.3MEG to 30K - It could be that some aberrations were carried over to the file I redid. I did not focus on the small circles but on the Pentagram and the large circle, and the fact that the pentagram is now free of distortion bears out the fact that it was a design error while drawing the pentagram.

So start from a blank page and redo the test file from scratch. In short, the original file was full of nodes and other variables which probably were a big contributor to the problems you are having. And keep the design simple and free of as many nodes as possible while maintaining a clean and crisp design. As Scotty on StarTrek once said " The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to clog up the pipes."

Here is a file I did from scratch based on your test file and I did notice that your file was also CYMK instead of RGB which is a no-no - and this file is even smaller than the others, which tells me there was something going on that you did that was not kosher - so try this last file and see what kind of results you get before you tear apart the machine.

As you can see the scratch built file is now 23.3K - So a lot of "variables" were eliminated from your 1.3MEG file and even my copy and past redo which resulted in a 30K file. So try my scratch built RGB no converted to curves file and please post your results.

[andrew zen]

I agree.

I use CorelDraw for ALOT, especially for embroidery layout and the laser. Sometime CorelDraw get confused. It is a complicated bit of software. I would narrow out Corel Draw as a cause, because it is easy and free. Draw each component from scratch and add one at a time. I duplicate pages to try to find the offending shape, pattern, curve or whatever. The Epilog driver takes the shapes as CorelDaw gives it to them and then does some sorting I have yet to figure out. Of course a laser can only draw straight lines, so curves are interpolated. If the drivers gets some contradictory curve info, I am sure there will be unpredictability.

Once you can't draw a good, simple curve (big or small) on the laser from anywhere on the bed, I would start looking at hardware.

[Greg Bednar]

The Epilog driver takes the shapes as CorelDaw gives it to them and then does some sorting I have yet to figure out.

Which brings up another issue - your machine is a 2005 model - make sure all drivers and firmware are up to date also.

[Hamid Taqui]

Hi Greg,

Here's a cut using your test final file, as you can see the issues are still apparent. It seems I'm getting a lot of flatspots in the vertical direction hen trying to do the smaller circles or curves:

http://www.ndc.co.uk/hamtt/test-final.jpg

[Scott Shepherd]

You are getting mismatches in the start and end points of objects. You get that because something is worn. It has nothing to do with Corel or the file. It's a mechanical mismatch between the start and end point, caused by wear in your drive system. It's an inexpensive fix.

[Hamid Taqui]

You are getting mismatches in the start and end points of objects. You get that because something is worn. It has nothing to do with Corel or the file. It's a mechanical mismatch between the start and end point, caused by wear in your drive system. It's an inexpensive fix.

Yes my thoughts precisely, but I'm trying to pinpoint which parts.

As far as I can see the possible culprits could be:

Belts
Motors
Runners/Rails

I intend to sap the parts over ith new starting with the least expensive option (belts) but it orries me taht some people have posted they have swapped the parts over ith no resolution. So before I embark on a spending spree I'd like to narro don the possibilities. the only thing that prevented me thinking it could be any of teh above is the fact that the flatpoints are in more or less exactly the same place regardless of where I print on the bed. This leads me to think it could be something to do ith the direction change etc.

Are there any other parts you think I could be missing off my list I should suspect?

[Hamid Taqui]

Can someoen else with an Epilog Mini laser tell me if on their machine when you move the laser head in the x-axis with the machine off, if it is smooth or if a very dull vibration is felt (eminating from the motor) as the head moves? I noticed with the x-axis motor out it does not spin freely but goes through a dull "clicking".

[Scott Shepherd]

Are there any other parts you think I could be missing off my list I should suspect?

I don't have a Mini, so I can't tell you which parts need replacing or checking, I can only tell you my own personal experience. We do some very small, repetitive, precise work. You can see the problem creep in over time. On the Universal, it's 3 things, belts, pulleys, and bearings. If you replace all 3 items, the problem goes away. Call Epilog, it's free support from people that will take 1 look at the photos you send them and recommend a solution. I wouldn't even think of ordering parts before calling and getting their opinion.

I'd guess that in 10 minutes time, you'll know exactly what you need to do and how much it will cost.

I'm not sure what part of the country or world you are located, but I'd make the call to Epilog in the USA and get it resolved. If you replace parts off of a recommendation from someone on here (self included) and it doesn't resolve the issue, you've wasted your money. If what Epilog suggests doesn't resolve it, then you can at least hold them accountable.

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

Can someoen else with an Epilog Mini laser tell me if on their machine when you move the laser head in the x-axis with the machine off, if it is smooth or if a very dull vibration is felt (eminating from the motor) as the head moves? I noticed with the x-axis motor out it does not spin freely but goes through a dull "clicking".

I bought my Mini 18 brand new in 2004 just before they announced the Mini 24 was available. It has displayed these same vector problems from the very start. The circles have the same "bumps" in the 4-5 o'clock & 10-11 o'clock positions. It will also skip random spots while cutting - almost always a vertical cut - so it looks like there was a slight perforation or inconsistency in the material. The "skipping" was blamed on wood or other things that could have variable thickness, but it happens with paper, plastic, fabric and everything else. It has nothing to do with the material I am cutting. The belts, motors, encoder strip & tube have been replaced probably 5 years ago when it was still under warranty. Graphics have been built from scratch, rotated, flipped and a new computer and new version of Corel and network cable have been used. Nothing makes a difference. I eventually gave up on trying to resolve this with Tech Support because I was consistently told it wasn't a problem and no one else had reported it - even though I had seen similiar posts in other forums & internet groups. I make sure to keep sandpaper handy at all times so I can smooth out the rough perforated patches on items I cut.

As for the vibration feeling while moving the x-axis while the machine is off. I guess I would say yes I feel a vibration. I've felt that since day one and I keep the laser fairly clean and maintained.

I can't run the test file posted here. I don't have X5.

[Doug Fennell]

Start with the small y-axis belt, the 2 large y-axis belts and the x-axis belt. Just replace them - they are cheap. Not one of the belts is over $10

I have uploaded the manuals, repair procedures for the mini on my site:
Here's the Repair manual for the Helix/mini (same mechanically, helix is just larger) complete with parts list. http://www.propellerheadgeek.com/download/esm.pdf
Here's the exact procedure for replacement of y-axis components on the mini - http://www.propellerheadgeek.com/download/miniy.pdf

Before you make your order, remove the y-axis rod (joins the pulley system for the gantry), lay it on a flat surface and roll it to make sure it's not bent. Even a little bend will cause what you are seeing.

With the pulleys out, get a toothbrush and clean out the recesses in the teeth - if there are burrs, replace the pulleys - people will poo-poo this, mainly because they've never had an Epilog. Epilog's use Kevlar banded belts, and they will eventually leave burrs in the soft aluminum of the pulleys.

On the ends of the y-axis rods, either side, you'll find 2 bearings - remove them (don't loose the washer on each end that caps the bearings) and make sure they run smooth, replace them if they don't.

[Hamid Taqui]

Start with the small y-axis belt, the 2 large y-axis belts and the x-axis belt. Just replace them - they are cheap. Not one of the belts is over $10

I have uploaded the manuals, repair procedures for the mini on my site:
Here's the Repair manual for the Helix/mini (same mechanically, helix is just larger) complete with parts list. http://www.propellerheadgeek.com/download/esm.pdf
Here's the exact procedure for replacement of y-axis components on the mini - http://www.propellerheadgeek.com/download/miniy.pdf

Before you make your order, remove the y-axis rod (joins the pulley system for the gantry), lay it on a flat surface and roll it to make sure it's not bent. Even a little bend will cause what you are seeing.

With the pulleys out, get a toothbrush and clean out the recesses in the teeth - if there are burrs, replace the pulleys - people will poo-poo this, mainly because they've never had an Epilog. Epilog's use Kevlar banded belts, and they will eventually leave burrs in the soft aluminum of the pulleys.

On the ends of the y-axis rods, either side, you'll find 2 bearings - remove them (don't loose the washer on each end that caps the bearings) and make sure they run smooth, replace them if they don't.

Have just replaced the belts and it didnt make a blind bit of difference.

Rods are OK and have cleaned out the teeth etc and pulleys seem fine too.

What I cant understand is that the "faults" are repeated at precisely the same points regardless of where i print.