here goes the govt piddling around with stuff again!

[Kevin Gregoire]

i was at menards yesterday looking at fluorescent light fixtures they had on sale and i learned the government is banning t-12 bulbs and going with t-8

i cant even fathom how many schools, hospitals, businesses, etc. will have to swap out fixtures and/or bulbs.

i have six fixtures in my shop alone and another four in my patio and another six in my garage, thats thirty two bulbs!

[Neil Brooks]

Yeah. I think that one happened under the Energy Policy Act of 2005.

Let there be light !

[Jim Matthews]

I have heard energy efficiency is between 17 and 48% greater with the T8 bulb.
Given the flinty nature of funding local schools, that could translate into more teachers over the course of a year.

Even at the low end, it's 5 years to free money for the change over - less if you have high consumption.

I use outdoor fixtures, with daylight color balanced CFCs in my shop. They cost me LESS than a new ballast in my overhead fluorescent bank.
(And I can't break bulbs inside the Lexan cover.)

[Phil Thien]

What is the date for no new T-12 sales or production? I need to stock up.

[glenn bradley]

T-12 elimination has been coming for quite awhile. As discussed here and elsewhere, T-8's or other alternatives give better value (and better light in my use). All my fixtures are inexpensive electronic ballast T-8's. Dual lamp 4 foot fixtures are about $17 at Lowe's. Mine have been running since 2006 (at a not un-noticeable, although not extravagant savings) and I have replaced 1 lamp in that time (15 fixtures).

[Rod Sheridan]

i was at menards yesterday looking at fluorescent light fixtures they had on sale and i learned the government is banning t-12 bulbs and going with t-8

i cant even fathom how many schools, hospitals, businesses, etc. will have to swap out fixtures and/or bulbs.

i have six fixtures in my shop alone and another four in my patio and another six in my garage, thats thirty two bulbs!

Yes, and as others have posted it's a good thing.

You don't have to change fixtures, simply change the ballast and lamps when your lamps fail.

You'll save money on energy, have better lamp starting, no lamp flicker, and good cold weather performance.........It's a definite financial, environmental and technical improvement.

A good example of legislation acting for our good.............Regards, Rod.

[Kevin Gregoire]

is it good like these fluorescent bulbs in our homes we are supposed to go to? when they burn out there is no place to dispose of them.

i did see the new lamp in action at menards and it was brighter compared to the old one right next to it.
but wouldnt it be easier to change the whole thing instead of 'simply change the ballast and lamps when your lamps fail'?
its usually always cheaper to buy the whole 'kit'?

and im not saying it wont be better in the long run but its just about every single place in this country has the old four footers or the
eight footers and thats a lot of money for some places to spend.

[Tom Walz]

I am relamping my commerical shop. A get a rebate from the power company for about half the cost. It is estimated I will save eough for a 5 year payback on the rest.

Also it will be about seven years before I have to change a light bulb. Moving equipment then setting up a ladder to change light bulbs on an 18 foot ceiling is a real pain.

[James White]

Aren't the T8 bulbs a lot more expensive for high lumen high color temperature high CRI (90+) bulbs. In fact I couldn't even find them in the big box stores.

James

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Kevin, yes disposal of CFL's is an issue depending upon where you live.

In most cases we found that it was less expensive and faster to change the ballast than the entire fixture.

At work we did the conversion in sections over a 3 year period, at home I'm doing the conversion when the lamps or ballasts fail..........Regards, Rod.

[Paul Johnstone]

i was at menards yesterday looking at fluorescent light fixtures they had on sale and i learned the government is banning t-12 bulbs and going with t-8

i cant even fathom how many schools, hospitals, businesses, etc. will have to swap out fixtures and/or bulbs.

i have six fixtures in my shop alone and another four in my patio and another six in my garage, thats thirty two bulbs!

It would've been nicer if the government just had the stores stop selling T-12 fixtures, but still let the bulbs be sold.
I honestly don't care if hypothetically there's a 5-7 year payback (Not attacking the poster that said that, just using an example).. I don't use my shop that often, so I suspect my payback is going to be a lot longer (probably never). This is going to cost me a significant amount of money, and I will probably move or die before I get "payback".

[Jerome Hanby]

FWIW, I just bought a bunch of 4 bulb t12 fixtures. I'm changing the ballasts to t8 before I install them. i suspect these things came from some hospital refurb where they were replaced with t8 fixtures...

[Greg Portland]

i was at menards yesterday looking at fluorescent light fixtures they had on sale and i learned the government is banning t-12 bulbs and going with t-8

i cant even fathom how many schools, hospitals, businesses, etc. will have to swap out fixtures and/or bulbs.

i have six fixtures in my shop alone and another four in my patio and another six in my garage, thats thirty two bulbs!I've got 75+ bulbs in use between my 2 garages. I'm holding out hope for a dramatic cost reduction & output increase in LED lighting. Ideally a string of LED bulbs in a fluorescent form factor...

[Greg Portland]

Oh BTW, the T8 electronic ballasts don't last nearly as long as the old T12 magnetic ballasts. Whatever you'll save in electrical costs will go right into your maintenance budget.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Greg, we're going on 5 years at work for the first phase of our conversion to T8 lamps and ballasts. So far our failure rate hasn't been higher than the magnetic type.

It may depend upon the quality of the ballast purchased............Regards, Rod.

[Dan Friedrichs]

This is going to cost me a significant amount of money, and I will probably move or die before I get "payback".

If you're only considering your immediate out-of-pocket expenses, that may be true. But, T8 lighting is significantly more efficient than T12. Given that between 10-20% of electricity in the US is used for lighting, improving lighting efficiency reduces the number of new power plants needed (saving you money on your electric bill and reducing environmental impacts). Also, T8 tubes contain less mercury, which certainly benefits you, doesn't it?

[Anthony Whitesell]

I'm only getting 3-4 years from the $10 twin t-8 fixtures and 5-6 years out of the bulbs. Though I'm not sure on the bulbs but they seem to work in the next light. I have started writing the date on the bulbs (tube and CFLs) and the fixtures as I install them. Which reminds me, I have another fixture to replace this weekend.

[Rod Sheridan]

At $10 for a fixture, I'm not surprised at the short lifespan. I typically pay about $18 for a good electronic ballast in case quantities...........Rod.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I've gone to the $30 each fixtures. They had better be worth it.

[Ben Hatcher]

My company relamped from t-12's to t-8's and the difference is brightness is incredible. They reduced the number of fixtured by half and somehow still managed to significantly INCREASE the brightness.

Sounds like I'll be needing some new ballasts for my home shop. Any suggestions on where to buy good quality electronic ballasts? Do the bulb connectors need to be changed too?

[Anthony Whitesell]

No they are the same size. There are fixtures available listed as T8 or T12.

[Rod Sheridan]

Please let me know how that works out, I'd be interested................Regards, Rod.

[Jerome Hanby]

I'd be interested in a good brand of ballasts too. Somehow I'm thinking the $25 buck renditions at the borg may not be top quality...

[Mort Stevens]

How do you tell the difference between a T8 and a T12 fixture or lamps?

[Charles Wiggins]

i cant even fathom how many schools, hospitals, businesses, etc. will have to swap out fixtures and/or bulbs.

My workplace (a small community college) upgraded to T8s last fiscal year. Most of 18 buildings. My previous employer (another CC) did in in 2007. This was mandated by the state government. In many cases they were able to reduce the number of fixtures because the T8s are so much more efficient. Our VP of administration is expecting to see some substantial savings on the monthly electric bills. I have not asked if he has noted anything as yet.

[Rod Sheridan]

T12 lamps are 12/8" in diameter, T8 are 8/8" in diameter..............Rod.

[Phil Thien]

Hi Kevin, yes disposal of CFL's is an issue depending upon where you live.

In most cases we found that it was less expensive and faster to change the ballast than the entire fixture.

At work we did the conversion in sections over a 3 year period, at home I'm doing the conversion when the lamps or ballasts fail..........Regards, Rod.

Have you had to replace any of the tombstones? The tombstones on some of my fixtures at work are broken from ham-fisted employees jamming the bulbs into them. And in fairness, they do tend to get brittle over time.

What would be ideal is a retrofit ballast that came WITH tombstones attached that I could use to easily replace all the guts of the T12 fixtures in one shot. They're fairly conventional Cooper troffers. I'd think someone out there could make a unit that is prewired and easy to install.

I've also seen T8 fixtures (troffers) show up on craigslist (used) for cheap (like three and four lamp units, and lamped) for $15 to $20. They're guaranteed to work. At that price it may make sense to buy the used fixtures and replace my existing ones.

[david brum]

The power company replaced all of our T12 ballasts with T8 about 6 years ago at work. So far I have never replaced a bulb or ballast. Some of the lights have been on continuously the entire time. The T8 lights are brighter, don't buzz, don't flicker. It's a huge improvement. Before the change over, I was forever up on a ladder changing out leaky ballasts.

[Neil Brooks]

So ... David ...

Because of the legislation, you're now getting less exercise, and are more predisposed to cardiovascular disease ?? ;)

[Scott T Smith]

Just to be clear, as I understand it T12 bulbs will still be manufactured for a few more years. What is being stopped is the manufacture of new T12 ballasts.

[Phil Thien]

Just to be clear, as I understand it T12 bulbs will still be manufactured for a few more years. What is being stopped is the manufacture of new T12 ballasts.

It looks like the lamps stop being available in July 2012. The ballasts stop/stopped this year.

[Chris Friesen]

Aren't the T8 bulbs a lot more expensive for high lumen high color temperature high CRI (90+) bulbs. In fact I couldn't even find them in the big box stores.

James

It is an issue, though I don't recall seeing 90+ CRI T12s at the big box stores either (may be a regional thing). If you can live with 85CRI, the Philips Natural Sunshine bulbs are available at Home Depot around here. Otherwise you're looking at Sylvania Octron 900, Philips TL950, or equivalent.

[Kevin W Johnson]

At $10 for a fixture, I'm not surprised at the short lifespan. I typically pay about $18 for a good electronic ballast in case quantities...........Rod.

Price is not necessarily a true indicator of quality. If i sold those same ballasts for $30, does it make them even better? While price is a commonly used indicator, there seems to be more and more "rebadging" of indentical items at various prices.

While it may be his fixtures, it's also worthy to note that electronics, especially lower priced items, are more susceptable to power fluctuations. I've had several customers that after adding battery backups to computers for example, saw many persistant problems disappear.

Knowing the brand of ballasts your dealing with might help others that are experiencing higher failure rates.

[James White]

It seems that with the T8 bulbs. Unless you spend more than $10 per bulb. That a good CRI rating will give you low lumen output. It has been a year since I was shopping for bulbs. But if I recall. You could get the high lumen high CRI t12 bulbs for about $4 each.

Does anyone know if this is an inherent weakness in the T8 bulbs? Or is it due to low demand or some other market issue? I would think that for a shop high lumen high CRI is what you would want. So that you can see that thin pencil line or score mark better.

James

[John Shuk]

I have heard energy efficiency is between 17 and 48% greater with the T8 bulb.
Given the flinty nature of funding local schools, that could translate into more teachers over the course of a year.

Even at the low end, it's 5 years to free money for the change over - less if you have high consumption.

I use outdoor fixtures, with daylight color balanced CFCs in my shop. They cost me LESS than a new ballast in my overhead fluorescent bank.
(And I can't break bulbs inside the Lexan cover.)

There is likely no savings at all if you factor in the cost of the loans that the schools and Hospitals will have to take out to buy the new equipment. Since these entities are constantly on the verge of financial ruin, as are the taxpayers who fund schools and the patients who fund hospitals, perhaps it is best to hold off for a while.

[Greg Portland]

Hi Greg, we're going on 5 years at work for the first phase of our conversion to T8 lamps and ballasts. So far our failure rate hasn't been higher than the magnetic type.

It may depend upon the quality of the ballast purchased............Regards, Rod.Hi Rod, yes... quality of the ballast is a key factor. I'm going by statements made by my electrician friends and comments I've seen on pro electrician forums. The best electronic ballasts don't seem to be lasting as long as the best magnetic ballasts. The sample size I see at home is too small to make any legitimate conclusions.

[Chris Friesen]

Remember that at 48" T8 is generally 32W, while T12 was typically 40W. For efficiency you need to compare lumens/watt at a given CRI (though for equivalent total output you may require more fixtures).

A GE C50 T12 gives 2250 lumens @ 40W, with a CRI of 90.
A Philips C50 T12 gives 2200 lumens @ 40W, with a CRI of 92.
A Philips TL950 T8 gives 2000 lumens @ 32W, with a CRI of 98.
A Philips TL850 T8 gives 2850 lumens @ 32W, with a CRI of 85.

[Brent Ring]

A rare good example!

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Goodness gracious...I have 20 T-12 fixtures in my shop. The payback in efficiency is measured in decades!

Upgrade cost
$18 for fixture + $16 for two T-8 bulbs + $2 tax = $36 per 48" fixture x 20 fixtures = $720 investment

Energy Savings
20 fixtures x 16W savings per fixture x 20cents/KWhr / 1000 = 6.4cents/hr

Payback
Lights are on for 10hrs/week x 52 weeks x $0.064 = $33/year savings
Years of payback: $720 investment / $33 per yr savings = 22 years

Factor in interest costs and replacement bulb cost, it's gotta be over 30 years before I have a shot at breaking even.

That doesn't make me jump up and down with joy.

On another note...I often hear a lot of folks saying that the T-8 fixtures of similar length are brighter. However, all fluorescent bulbs are bright at new, then dim in a few weeks or months depending on the ballast quality.

Jeff :)

[John Coloccia]

Goodness gracious...I have 20 T-12 fixtures in my shop. The payback in efficiency is measured in decades!

Upgrade cost
$18 for fixture + $16 for two T-8 bulbs + $2 tax = $36 per 48" fixture x 20 fixtures = $720 investment

Energy Savings
20 fixtures x 16W savings per fixture x 20cents/KWhr / 1000 = 6.4cents/hr

Payback
Lights are on for 10hrs/week x 52 weeks x $0.064 = $33/year savings
Years of payback: $720 investment / $33 per yr savings = 22 years

Factor in interest costs and replacement bulb cost, it's gotta be over 30 years before I have a shot at breaking even.

That doesn't make me jump up and down with joy.

On another note...I often hear a lot of folks saying that the T-8 fixtures of similar length are brighter. However, all fluorescent bulbs are bright at new, then dim in a few weeks or months depending on the ballast quality.

Jeff :)

You forgot to include the costs of upgrading to T-6 fixtures in 7 years when T-8's are are outlawed.

[Greg Peterson]

Energy demand is constantly increasing, nationally and internationally. Many T12 fixtures can be replaced via attrition. Power companies have a vested interest in decreasing or slowing the rise in demand. I may be out on a limb here, but perhaps the bean counters have determined it is cheaper to subsidize change over programs than it is to build new power stations (coal, hydro, nuclear, geothermal...). Of course those costs for new power stations are passed on to the consumers, so I guess you can pay a little now or a lot more later. Unless someone has invented a perpetuation motion machine or room temperature fusion, energy costs aren't going down in anyone's lifetime.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

You forgot to include the costs of upgrading to T-6 fixtures in 7 years when T-8's are are outlawed.

So true. But I'm guessing LED may be the next push.
Jeff :)

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Many T12 fixtures can be replaced via attrition.

Perhaps when stuff get demolished. Many of the fixtures that I have are over 20 years old and still work fine. Even the ones with mechanical ballasts. Unless I'm demolishing my house soon, I don't see attrition helping me much. However, the way my NJ property taxes are going, I might just demolish my house and pitch a tent on the property.

I like your remark about 'room temperature fusion'. I know a little bit about this subject and I agree with your sinicism as it is a far, far cry from room temperature right now. In fact, it works at both ends of the spectrum: near absolute cold (-452F) and hotter than the sun (100,000,000F)....both at the same time!

Jeff :)

[Paul Johnstone]

If you're only considering your immediate out-of-pocket expenses, that may be true. But, T8 lighting is significantly more efficient than T12. Given that between 10-20% of electricity in the US is used for lighting, improving lighting efficiency reduces the number of new power plants needed (saving you money on your electric bill and reducing environmental impacts). Also, T8 tubes contain less mercury, which certainly benefits you, doesn't it?

What benefit is there to me having to throw away about 20 perfectly good 8' long T12 fixtures? What about all the waste there?
I'm just saying.. stop making the fixtures, keep selling the bulbs.. Let T12 die a natural death instead of being so heavy handed.
As far as mercury goes.. they should stop trying to get rid of incandesent bulbs if they are worried about that.
There's no convienent way to dispose of used bulbs.. so they get smashed up in the trash and contaminate the world.. no matter
if they are CFL, T12 or t8.

[Dan Gill]

It would be nicest if the federal government stuck to its constitutionally mandated and permitted roles and stayed out of other things. If it is economically viable to change over, then people will change over on their own.

[David Weaver]

What benefit is there to me having to throw away about 20 perfectly good 8' long T12 fixtures? What about all the waste there?
I'm just saying.. stop making the fixtures, keep selling the bulbs.. Let T12 die a natural death instead of being so heavy handed.
As far as mercury goes.. they should stop trying to get rid of incandesent bulbs if they are worried about that.
There's no convienent way to dispose of used bulbs.. so they get smashed up in the trash and contaminate the world.. no matter
if they are CFL, T12 or t8.

You're trying to be too sensible about it. For their position on sensibility w.r.t. waste, see cash for clunkers, electronics recycling loopholes or recycling (chemical and energy waste) itself, or windmill policy in turning off windmills at night if a dead bird is found near them (when a maintenance person falls off a windmill and dies, they keep going, though). The rules change, in the end, it's probably not a net savings, and we'll get something stupid but they can keep the machine of legislating things obsolete going, just as the light bulb cartel did in the '30s (though by collusion and not legislation).

I wish I would've known about this when I put my T12 fixtures in about 5 years ago. I only have four, and one in the kitchen, but it's interesting that they go through the farce of energy saving. I don't remember the last time I heard about grid strain because of lighting. I wonder how total net power consumption changes will be compared to heating, water heating, refrigeration, and air conditioning power consumption - not even touching on industry non-lighting consumption. It'll probably be a net zero change after backing out the energy used in manufacturing and transporting the new fixtures.

[Kevin W Johnson]

I agree with some others here. I think they should just stop making new T12 fixtures, and continue selling bulbs. The pollution created, coupled with the energy consumed to produce and transport the new fixtures (as well as transport and recycle the old ones) most likely outweighs any energy saved by the T8 bulbs.

[Scott Donley]

Went out yesterday to buy a couple 96 inch, 2 pin t-12 bulbs. No such animal anymore. Everyone was sold out and not getting anymore in and can't be ordered. I really don't need another expense right now to replace the fixtures.:mad:

[Leo Graywacz]

What benefit is there to me having to throw away about 20 perfectly good 8' long T12 fixtures? What about all the waste there?
I'm just saying.. stop making the fixtures, keep selling the bulbs.. Let T12 die a natural death instead of being so heavy handed.
As far as mercury goes.. they should stop trying to get rid of incandesent bulbs if they are worried about that.
There's no convienent way to dispose of used bulbs.. so they get smashed up in the trash and contaminate the world.. no matter
if they are CFL, T12 or t8.

This could be considered as part of some jobs bill. It will put trash haulers, ballast makers, fixture producer, lamp producer back to work. You government at its finest.

I like the T8 better than the 12's. I have T8's and T5's in my shop.

[Dan Friedrichs]

As far as mercury goes.. they should stop trying to get rid of incandesent bulbs if they are worried about that.
There's no convienent way to dispose of used bulbs.. so they get smashed up in the trash and contaminate the world.. no matter
if they are CFL, T12 or t8.


Incandescent bulbs also indirectly contribute to mercury pollution, because the burning of coal (to make electricity) releases Hg into the atmosphere. For a produced lumen of light, an incandescent bulb actually contributes more to mercury pollution than a CFL does.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I wonder how total net power consumption changes will be compared to heating, water heating, refrigeration, and air conditioning power consumption - not even touching on industry non-lighting consumption. It'll probably be a net zero change after backing out the energy used in manufacturing and transporting the new fixtures.

~25% of commercial energy use is for lighting - it's a big chunk. And compared to electrical uses (water heating, refrigeration, etc), lighting is very inefficient, and it is very cheap to increase its efficiency (unlike, say, refrigeration, where you would have to spend a lot more money to realize the same savings in electrical use).

I can't prove to you that the whole conversion process (including making new fixtures, disposing of the old ones, etc) is net-energy-positive, but isn't it awfully cynical to assume that it's not? This is not some politically-motivated change. Well-educated teams of scientists and engineers come up with the recommendations for these policy actions. You really think your understanding of this rivals the experts'?

[Brian Kent]

If you want a bunch of T-12 bulbs, go buy them on line from Home Depot.

[Josiah Bartlett]

I used to work for an electric utility in the department that sponsored a bunch of the T8 retrofit projects. My information is about 15 years out of date, but we found that the electronic ballasts were more sensitive to heat, mounting angle, and lamp age than the magnetic ones. Electronic ballasts can last a good long time as long as they are kept cool and the lamps are changed ASAP when they start to go bad, but if you leave a bad lamp in the fixture it will shorten the life of the ballast quite a bit.

[Scott Donley]

If you want a bunch of T-12 bulbs, go buy them on line from Home Depot. No 2 pin, I tried.

[David Weaver]

Well-educated teams of scientists and engineers come up with the recommendations for these policy actions. You really think your understanding of this rivals the experts'?

Strawman much?

I think it's not a big part of the problem when it comes to electrical use, especially when it is extrapolated onto the private market (the mandate). If you want to save electricity, ban the use of it for heating and cooling or set legal limits for interior temp with heating and cooling (not advocating that, making a point).

I see commercial buildings consume about 1/8th of the electricity in the US, but let's pad that and make it 1/5th (total commercial use is about 1/3rd, but buildings are where lights are, so the commercial building sector is the big target for lighting change). Lighting is 1/3rd of their consumption (in 2005), or 1/15th of electrical use. If every single fixture was T12 and went to T8, then the energy consumed would be a savings of about 2% of generated electricity. (1/3rd of 1/15th). However, I went through the office and couldn't find a single T12, so the likelihood is that far less than half of the amount of lighting draw is actually T12s. In reality, the savings is probably about 1/2 of one percent or less of total electric generation. The lighting load in the rest of the commercial (non retail and non-other use building) is probably not that great of a part of consumption, especially vs. manufacturing. That's a rough estimate of the gross

(Go to EIA.gov for energy figures, be sure to convert BTUs consumed by a sector to actual retail delivery if you compare charts - the retail consumption of energy appears to be about 1/2 of the energy input for the generation sector).

But nobody here (on this forum) is really talking about the lamps in commercial areas that are on 4000 hours a year, are they? You don't need a mandate to get people to change those. They're talking about replacing bulbs in their own shop or parts of their houses where they are only on a few hours a week.

For everyone on here who has a private shop or a garage where the lights are on a couple of hours a week, a 35% decrease in consumed electricity does nothing except drive people to go purchase new stuff that is more likely to break.


You really think your understanding of this rivals the experts'?

That's sort of a dumb statement, it's as if I have to go pull out a study and compare organized credentials of some sort to describe why it makes no sense in some cases (like probably every single privately owned T12 fixture that isn't in a kitchen). Otherwise, I just have to accept that everyone has good intentions and that I shouldn't think about much of anything.

In my shop where the lights are on a few hours a week (just like plenty of others), and at a 200 watt total load when they're on, it shouldn't be very hard to figure out that replacing them is no net savings, and it shouldn't be someone else's decision to begin with. The net savings would be about one kilowatt hour per month to me, and I'd replace 3 fixtures (to less reliable ballasts) at a cost of what?

Without even looking at the cost if the initial changeover, if I have to replace a ballast or two more frequently than I'd have to change a magnetic ballast, the net present value of the whole thing is about zero - just for a ballast or two. I didn't even figure in production of sheet steel, plastic, transportation, etc of the new fixtures.

All of this was sort of a waste of time, I only need to do what I did two paragraphs above to see why it's a waste for me - and plenty of other people.

[John Coloccia]

re: being smarter than experts

One expert? I'm sure there are plenty of individuals out there that know more than me on specific subjects.

A committee? My experience is that committees are typically made up of one or two experts and the rest of them are at least as dumb as I am on subjects that interest me...and many are dumber. Yeah, if it's a topic that interests me I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that I'm probably smarter than the general consensus of most committees reviewing this stuff, even if there are a small handful of experts that are actually smarter than me.

[Doug Morgan]

I don't believe the government thought about too much in the way of incandescent bulbs anyway. You can't use florescent bulbs in an MRI. They generate noise that distorts the image and that will be a concern moving forward. LED bulbs have the same problem. I know, we tried them in our MRI to see if there were any problems. They caused streaks on the patient images.

[John Coloccia]

LED's generated noise the MRI picked up on? The only way I could see that happening is if the LED were being driven by an AC supply and rectified locally. Maybe the LED was being dimmed with PWM controller? LEDs are usually whisper quiet. I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I'm just curious what you were picking up.

[Jerome Hanby]

If it was a screw in replacement for an incandescent bulb, it would have to have the ac to dc converter/power supply right there.


LED's generated noise the MRI picked up on? The only way I could see that happening is if the LED were being driven by an AC supply and rectified locally. Maybe the LED was being dimmed with PWM controller? LEDs are usually whisper quiet. I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I'm just curious what you were picking up.

[David Weaver]

Interference from the PCB maybe?

In this whole conversation about T12 vs. T8, I would think anyone who really wanted to make a difference on a "committee" would wait for an LED solution to make a real material jump.

Of course, you don't need to make a mandate if it's cheaper, it will catch on on it's own - the same reason recycling doesn't work without a mandate - people don't select net losers on their own.

Never know who else is involved in the decision or what pressure is made when a group comes to a conclusion. It's like saying that nylons are as good as they can be because "scientists were involved in making the best product available". They were actually involved in making the best product available so long as it was too good (as in, nylons were originally too durable and the scientists were told to go back and make nylons that were good but not that good).

In terms of committees vs. scientists, the straw scientists we're referring to are not often left to draw their own conclusions. They are often told by the committee members or regulatory agencies what their conclusion is going to be. It's always more popular to endorse change and legislation with inaccurate results (savings figures in PPACA - $80B of which are already about to evaporate, the cost estimate of medicare part D - the figure released for the cost was a fraction of what the "scientists" involved said it would be, etc).

I wouldn't be surprised if many other agencies (those who get credit for "creating jobs", etc) were involved in the T12-type decision, driving a conclusion before it's really made.

Not that I don't believe there won't be an overall net energy savings from using T8s vs T12s, there probably will be. But we would've gotten there, anyway, and without changing every fixture that's on a few hours a week, a month or a year, just because we can't get bulbs for them.

[John Coloccia]

Interference from the PCB maybe?

In this whole conversation about T12 vs. T8, I would think anyone who really wanted to make a difference on a "committee" would wait for an LED solution to make a real material jump.

You know, it's funny....back in my airplane building days, some of us homebuilders were trying to make the switch to LED position lights (it's more common now, but far less common 10 years ago). Less maintenance and less watts per lumen (VERY important when you're trying to shave ounces....smaller batteries, smaller alternator, smaller wiring, less weight, longer battery reserve, more fuel, more range, etc....). Care to guess who was a constant thorn in our sides at inspection time? :)

Anyhow, I'm with you. I love LED lighting. I love the durability, how easy they are to deal with (dimming, etc), the complete lack of any noise except from the AC/DC converters (and those can be made very quiet), the wide availability of colors, the easiness in which you can pack multiple colors into one package and select your color temperature (I haven't seen this done yet, but there's no reason in the world why you couldn't). Lots of advantages and lots of possibilities with LEDs.

[David Weaver]

Care to guess who was a constant thorn in our sides at inspection time? :)



I have a pretty good guess :)

From what I can tell, tort, insurance (due to tort and regulation) and regulation (on the planes, as well as the airports) has pretty much killed private flying (that and $6 avgas, I guess). We used to sit at the local airport and the old-timers loved to tell us how in their day, you could solo with 3 hours of flight time in an ercoupe or a champ.

Some friends became pilots, some of them do it for a living. They're still clinging to the idea that they might buy a plane or get one built, but none of them even have their own planes at this point and it gets to be a little more out of reach each year. I always thought I would learn to fly, but the rental, fuel and ownership costs went up so fast in the last 25 years that I gave up 15 years ago, it's for "rich people" now.

[Jim Neeley]

<tongue *deeply* in cheek> Come on folks.. We all know that the gubbermint knows best. Just drink the purple koolaid and we will screw you blind... er, save you from yourselves!!

You know you really want it.. you know you really need it... after all, we the gubbermint are the one who are also getting rid of those pesky incandescent bulbs because its good and saves you from all sins!!!

[Paul Johnstone]

Incandescent bulbs also indirectly contribute to mercury pollution, because the burning of coal (to make electricity) releases Hg into the atmosphere. For a produced lumen of light, an incandescent bulb actually contributes more to mercury pollution than a CFL does.

Well, to be honest, that makes me feel less guilty about tossing a used flourescent bulb into the trash.

[Paul Johnstone]

I can't prove to you that the whole conversion process (including making new fixtures, disposing of the old ones, etc) is net-energy-positive, but isn't it awfully cynical to assume that it's not? This is not some politically-motivated change. Well-educated teams of scientists and engineers come up with the recommendations for these policy actions. You really think your understanding of this rivals the experts'?

Ok, I can accept that if you are starting from scratch, T8 is probably better. I will believe you on that.
But there's no way you can convince me that it's worthwhile for me to trash all my T12s and reinstall T8s..
Several hundred dollars, plus a good chunk of my time. At the time I installed the T12s, the government was happy with them.
Why should I be punished because they allowed T12s to be manufactured in the first place?
The other poster is right, this is just the beginning.. pretty soon the government is going to mandate all kinds of unnecessary spending "for the greater good".

I would be ok with a ban on selling new fixtures, but let the bulbs die a natural death. Don't punish me for installing T12s ten years ago.
The amount of electricity I use on lights in negligible. I don't care what the commerical people use for lighting electricity.. let them decide if it makes
business sense to change over (some have on their own).. Don't force this down our throats.

Honestly, Congress has much more important things to worry about than this.

[Kevin W Johnson]

~25% of commercial energy use is for lighting - it's a big chunk. And compared to electrical uses (water heating, refrigeration, etc), lighting is very inefficient, and it is very cheap to increase its efficiency (unlike, say, refrigeration, where you would have to spend a lot more money to realize the same savings in electrical use).

I can't prove to you that the whole conversion process (including making new fixtures, disposing of the old ones, etc) is net-energy-positive, but isn't it awfully cynical to assume that it's not? This is not some politically-motivated change. Well-educated teams of scientists and engineers come up with the recommendations for these policy actions. You really think your understanding of this rivals the experts'?

Given past history, I'd say the chance that a lobbyist/political favor had a hand in the policy discussion is pretty great. Nothing happens without someone or some big business benefiting from it. I'd like to think this isn't the case, but haven't seen anything to make me think otherwise.

As for commercial usage, economics will drive that descision, as the more they are on, the more it makes sense and the more the savings will be.