What is a “Properly Weighted and Balanced Handle”

[Baxter Smith]

I have been thinking about this since last weekend and finally decided there was no such thing as a dumb question.:rolleyes: (hoping):)
When I went to the AAW symposium last June, the one thing on my shopping list was a new 5/8V. I love the one I presently use, but it is getting short.(I have had to grind the top of the shaft flat for the wolverine jig to grab) I was also thinking of getting a 16 or 18 inch Thompson handle to go with it. But…since I have plenty of tool handle material, I ended up getting a 3/8 detail gouge instead of the handle. Also picked up a couple of removable tool holders to try out thinking I could adjust/return the wooden handle if needed.(and if I knew what that was!)
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Just a side note. I had a piece of mesquite that Edward Bartissimo had sent me that I was going to use for the 5/8V. As I was using the oneway template to size the end where the adapter screwed on, I found that I had turned it too small……even before I had gotten to the size the template would fit! I’m assuming I got a ½ inch template in a 5/8 bag. Ended up shortening it further and it’s now on my detail gouge. Thanks Edward!
The hosaluk adaptor I put on a 20 inch handle and it has an empty weight of 35 oz.
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The oneway adaptor I put on an 18 inch handle and it has an empty weight of 26 oz.
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I can add up to 10 oz of shot to the 20 inch and 8 oz. to the 18.

210003On Saturday, I roughed out a couple of 10 inch sassafras bowls with the big handle filled with 10 oz of shot. Worked well but my arms seemed to notice it afterwards. (Though they were the first bowls I had rouged out in more than a month)Though going from my 19 oz old gouge to a 45 oz probably figures in there somewhere.

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The pencil is the point where they balance with the tool fully extended and without any shot added. I can adjust the tool in and out which will change the balance point but….getting around to that question…. where do you like your balance point(and for those that have adjustable handles) do you change it depending on the task. Do you add weight, and how much weight do you add if you have that option? Is feeling balanced holding it, different than what is good when the tool is on the rest and in use? My questions aren't about handle shape or brand though I know people have preferences. I am just curious about how the total weight and balance of these homemade handles compare to a Thompson, another brand, or a homemade one you like to use.
So if you have a thought, a scale in your shop, or some other insite... Thanks!:D

[Jim Burr]

Baxter...I by no means mean to deminish your question...but it is what feels right...I like a heavier handle...some don't...some do. Mess with a few and see.

[Richard Allen]

One more of those personal preference things. I like a heavy handle on a big tool and a light handle on a small tool. I also like to change how much of the tool is sticking out of a handle when transporting a tool. Most all of my tools are fixed handles and I have no desire to change those tools. I am much more concerned that the tool is freshly sharpened.

[neil mackay]

[One more of those personal preference things. I like a heavy handle on a big tool and a light handle on a small tool.

Pretty much where its at, ....how long is a piece of string...

[charlie knighton]

what length fits you hip/side?? i would think it is more the right length than the weight. some of the hollowing tools are 48 inches or more, David Ellsworth has a not rounded but vertical section at the end

[John Keeton]

Baxter, I recently purchased three new tools from Doug, but bought handles from Randy Privett - not because I do not like Doug's handles. Doug makes a quality product, and it feels good in the hand. But, when I work in the winter, I keep my shop at about 50* or so, and prefer a warmer handle. I have not added shot to either of the handles yet, and probably won't as the tools they hold are smaller in size. However, they are drilled on each end for a tool, and one of them is 5/8"/3/8" - so, it could be used for either.

I did make a wood handle for my Thompson 5/8"V gouge, and weighted the end with shot. It has a great feel to it, and I plan at some point to weight the handles on my 1/2" gouges.

One note - I have one of the Hosaluk adapters on a wood handle in which I have a 1/2" D-Way gouge. Through a moment of inattention, the tip of my gouge unexpectedly contacted a piece of wood I was roughing causing a dramatic catch. The adapter broke out of the handle and split the handle 3/4 of its length. It is my belief that the absence of a ferrule makes that insert/adapter unsafe. To use that adapter you must remove too much wood from the end of the handle, leaving inadequate support.

I much prefer the adjustable adapter now made by Doug Thompson (cam lock design) with a ferrule. Slick piece of work! I do not own one - YET - but will in the near future.

[Baxter Smith]

Jim, Richard, Neil, thanks for your responses. I know it is a matter of personal preference and that longer/ heavier handles go with bigger tools but my experience is pretty limited. I have only used the bowl gouges that came with a used lathe I purchased. The 5/8 V Henry Taylor)with its 14 inch handle (saw Dale Nish using the exact same one at Totally Turning last spring and asked him what kind it was) and a Sorby 5/8 U measured across the flutes with an 11 inch handle. Since those were the ones avavilable, I have gotten used to them. I see the "pro's" using ones that appear much longer. I am assuming they know something I don't so made mine longer too!:) I am just wondering if they are" in the ballpark".


what length fits you hip/side?? i would think it is more the right length than the weight. some of the hollowing tools are 48 inches or more, David Ellsworth has a not rounded but vertical section at the end
Too be honest Charlie, I rarely held the 14 inch handle by the end so why do I need an 18 or 20?:)
With its narrow nose and long wings, I seem to use it 90% of the time. I haven't reground the new 5'8 to that extreme yet though the wings are gradually getting longer each time I sharpen it!



I did make a wood handle for my Thompson 5/8"V gouge, and weighted the end with shot. It has a great feel to it, and I plan at some point to weight the handles on my 1/2" gouges.

One note - I have one of the Hosaluk adapters on a wood handle in which I have a 1/2" D-Way gouge. Through a moment of inattention, the tip of my gouge unexpectedly contacted a piece of wood I was roughing causing a dramatic catch. The adapter broke out of the handle and split the handle 3/4 of its length. It is my belief that the absence of a ferrule makes that insert/adapter unsafe. To use that adapter you must remove too much wood from the end of the handle, leaving inadequate support.

I much prefer the adjustable adapter now made by Doug Thompson (cam lock design) with a ferrule. Slick piece of work! I do not own one - YET - but will in the near future.
Thanks John. I remember reading your post about the Hosaluk handle this summer......after I had already purchased mine!:) When I looked at the wooden Hosaluk handles in Saint Paul, I noticed they were very thick in the front end and tried to make mine somewhat similar for safety reasons.
I looked at some camlock handles at the symposium(don't remember the manufacturer) and they seemed like they way to go, but at that point, I had decided to try and make one. If you remember, how long did you make your handle for the 5/8V and what is the total weight of tool and handle? Just curious! Thanks.:)

[Reed Gray]

I have seen handles from ultra light hollow aluminum tubing to the fancy Glaser handles. Apparently the shot filled handles are very popular right now, because all the makers at the Symposium this year had screw on caps for their handles. I prefer wood, it just feels better to me, and a straight cylinder with no bumps and humps. I am constantly changing my grip, front and back, and where I hold changes a lot. I don't like the shot filled handles. If you do a long days worth of turning, they get heavy. If you want to reduce vibrations, move the tool rest closer. What I haven't tried is a oval shaped sledge hammer type handle. It might feel really nice, but I am not sure how to make a ferrule for it. Also, I to roll my handles a lot, so oval may not work. You can change balance point a lot by where you hold the tool. Most of the time I am choked up on it, with the handle under my elbow, rather than down on my hip.

robo hippy

[Jon Lanier]

That has me curious. I have a Golf Club scale which I can measure swing weight... simply put weight, ratio of the head of the over all weight of the club. I would need to make a jig of sorts, but I'd be interested in applying this to the various tools I have.

But I'm not sure if 'balanced' would be more important than feel. I would also be interested in the vibration/Dampening effects and how that is related to balance/feel.

[Glenn Roberts]

Baxter, I understand your interest in trying to find the best option, but for what its worth I don't think that balance means very much with wood turning handles. With tennis rackets and golf clubs etc , sure.
I too often seen turners pick up a tool/handle and say 'it feels balanced' but they haven't thought about what happens when they rest the tool on the toolrest, and then start varying the overhang over the rest. Clearly the pivot point varies enormously. So yes, some prefer lead shot etc ( mainly for vibration and/or extra weight) some prefer light weight handles. ( the manufacturers add the option so their handles cater for many options)
For me the length of the handles is of more interest. I sometimes are amazed at how some turners put up with some of the supplied short wooden handles, rather than remove them and go for a longer option, given the overhang and leverage involved. Particularly with hollowing etc.

I hope this helps.
Glenn

[Steve Kubien]

So, which lathe is the best?

:). Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Obviously, we all have our opinions based on our experiences and our mode of tool usage. I have a 5/8"v with a 20" Thompson handle and a 1/2"v with a 16" handle. Both have some lead shot the shot but are not full so the balance point varies. That works for me. The 5/8" is 45oz and the 1/2" is 31oz (everybody applaud the Canadian for using Imperial units!).

Wish I could add a picture but I can't seem to do it from my iPad.

Why do I have them set up the way I do? I like to hold the long, 5/8" gouge with the handle low, toward my hip. The 1/2" tends to get used a lot while the handle is close to level, using a push cut with the tip but sometimes lower towards my hip. In both cases , the mass does not bother me at all, but I wouldn't want the 1/2" any heavier when I am holding it close to level. I love the extra mass of the big one. Nowadays, when I reach for my Ellsworth gouge with it's wood handle, it feels like a chopstick in my hand and not at all comfortable.

My 2 cents.

[Baxter Smith]

...I don't like the shot filled handles. If you do a long days worth of turning, they get heavy. ....... Most of the time I am choked up on it, with the handle under my elbow, rather than down on my hip.

robo hippy
Thanks Reed. Using a gouge weighing twice as much as what I was used too was definately noticable after roughing multiple bowls. My hands also move up and down the tool and I would say I do most of my turning choked up.


...... I don't think that balance means very much with wood turning handles. ...
I too often seen turners pick up a tool/handle and say 'it feels balanced' but they haven't thought about what happens when they rest the tool on the toolrest, and then start varying the overhang over the rest. Clearly the pivot point varies enormously. ....For me the length of the handles is of more interest. I sometimes are amazed at how some turners put up with some of the supplied short wooden handles, rather than remove them and go for a longer option, given the overhang and leverage involved. Particularly with hollowing etc.

I hope this helps.
Glenn
Thanks Glenn. I have read that people liked certain handles because they felt balanced, but I couldn't figure out how that applied to the tool in use. Didn't have a clue as to if the ones I had made had it!:) It may take me while to take advantage of the longer handle.


...

Obviously, we all have our opinions based on our experiences and our mode of tool usage. I have a 5/8"v with a 20" Thompson handle and a 1/2"v with a 16" handle. Both have some lead shot the shot but are not full so the balance point varies. That works for me. The 5/8" is 45oz and the 1/2" is 31oz (everybody applaud the Canadian for using Imperial units!).......


Thanks Steve. I do appreciate the imperial units!:) Finding out that a 5/8"v with a 20" Thompson handle filled with some shot weighed 45oz(which is the same total as the one I used)was a lot of what I was after. With my very limited experience, I had no clue if the total weight was something people used.

[Michael Menzli]

Old thread but Im looking at doing some handles this weekend and checking out shot options.Baxter your handles are exactly what I want to do but not clear on the best method. Can you explain your "threaded end". (what is it, how its done)

[Rich Aldrich]

Baxter, I like your idea with the shot and being able to try different weights. As far as length goes, I would think if it is long enough to tuck into your turning muscle (maybe a bit past your turning muscle), it should be fine. I have watched Bill Grumbine's DVD and have the same issue as it appears that you have - not much of a turning muscle.

[Dan Forman]

Baxter --- I've recently been wondering the same thing. I will say that the 22" handle I got from Randy is too long for me - tends to bump into things, but the 16" DWay handle I like a lot. I really like the extra weight when roughing, enough so that I removed my 5/8" Thompson from it's home made handle so that I could use it in one of the metal ones. I agree with Glenn about how the balance will shift with different loads - a function of distance over tool rest and size of "bite". The great thing about shot is that you can experiment without commitment to a given weight.

Dan

[Harry Robinette]

Baxter
I use Thompson tools and handles almost exclusively. Doug's handles take the pressure off of my thumbs which have nerve damage in.That said I used and made allot of wood handles in the last 12 years and a good
ferrule is a must on wood tools. I tried D Ellsworth wrapped ferrule once and changed that,I usually use all heavy wall copper pipe couplings cause there heavier then just the pipe and make the end a little heavier then what the manufactures do I think safty cause I've heard of handles braking like John K's did and I mean manufactured handles. As to balance and wieght Like everyone says it's what fells right to you. I use DT tools and handles and I adjust the tool protrusion for what I'm doing and I have adjusted the shot wieght to what I use the tool for some have very little shot and some I've added shot to by punching the plastic plug in a little further. So do your own thing with your handles and then let us know were you endded up with the wieght and the length and the balance.

[Baxter Smith]

... Can you explain your "threaded end". (what is it, how its done)
Michael, I used what I thought would be easy to work with. 1/2"cpvc fittings. One male and one female threaded. I turned down/rounded the hex end so they would fit into a drilled hole, then they were epoxied in place. If you want the grain in your handle to line up when screwed tight, you have to be aware of that when you epoxy them in.

Baxter, I like your idea with the shot and being able to try different weights. As far as length goes, I would think if it is long enough to tuck into your turning muscle (maybe a bit past your turning muscle), it should be fine. I have watched Bill Grumbine's DVD and have the same issue as it appears that you have - not much of a turning muscle.


Baxter --- I've recently been wondering the same thing. I will say that the 22" handle I got from Randy is too long for me - tends to bump into things, but the 16" DWay handle I like a lot. ....
Dan, the 5/8 Henry Taylor V I used almost exclusively to begin with had a 14.5" handle. The ones I made to try for the Thompson 5/8V were 17.5 and 20.5". I use the 17.5" the majority of the time since I haven't been doing much big stuff lately. Even the 17.5 can bump into the tailstock when hollowing the inside of a bowl if I am not paying attention. I can't seem to remember that I could slide the tool deeper into the handle.

[Jamie Donaldson]

So much of this concern with tool handles is irrelevant to actual function, and finds traction in the subjective evaluations of tools by tool owners/users. Balance of a mounted tool/handle is of small concern, because in actual use the foreward weight of the tool is supported by the tool rest. I have and use examples of almost every size and style of handle available, and have favorites for specific uses. I do generally prefer the warmth and feel of wooden handles, but also use alum tube/vinyl hose covered handles frequently, especially in my traveling tool kit.

[Michelle Rich]

this is beyond my pay grade!! I have never used these items. I have made handles and I just make them long & learn to use them as is. if they are too long, I shorten them. I have never worried about weight. I guess I'm too much of a country hick and would use a tree branch if that was all I had! Good luck with this & enjoy the process. Studying all aspects of the craft is fun & very useful in the long run.

[James Combs]

this is beyond my pay grade!! I have never used these items. I have made handles and I just make them long & learn to use them as is. if they are too long, I shorten them. I have never worried about weight. I guess I'm too much of a country hick and would use a tree branch if that was all I had! Good luck with this & enjoy the process. Studying all aspects of the craft is fun & very useful in the long run.

Amen Michelle. Exactly what I would have said if I had thought about it.

[Bob Bergstrom]

I have seen handles from ultra light hollow aluminum tubing to the fancy Glaser handles. Apparently the shot filled handles are very popular right now, because all the makers at the Symposium this year had screw on caps for their handles. I prefer wood, it just feels better to me, and a straight cylinder with no bumps and humps. I am constantly changing my grip, front and back, and where I hold changes a lot. I don't like the shot filled handles. If you do a long days worth of turning, they get heavy. If you want to reduce vibrations, move the tool rest closer. What I haven't tried is a oval shaped sledge hammer type handle. It might feel really nice, but I am not sure how to make a ferrule for it. Also, I to roll my handles a lot, so oval may not work. You can change balance point a lot by where you hold the tool. Most of the time I am choked up on it, with the handle under my elbow, rather than down on my hip.

robo hippy
+1 here on just about everything Reed says. Wood provides a great feedback of what the tool is doing. I want to feel what the cut is doing not Deaden it. Most of the time I grip the handle at the ferile anyway and wouldn't want all that weight back there. To me if the tool is cutting properly you don't need much of a handle at all!

[Baxter Smith]

Baxter
..... So do your own thing with your handles and then let us know were you endded up with the wieght and the length and the balance.
Harry, the longer one I made and loaded with shot worked fine, but after using it for several hours, I knew it. I took all the shot out but have rarely used it since. The lighter and slightly shorter one, I took about half of the shot out. I couldn't tell you how much there is in there and have never bothered to adjust it. So much for me trying to figure out things!

this is beyond my pay grade!! I have never used these items. I have made handles and I just make them long & learn to use them as is. if they are too long, I shorten them. I have never worried about weight. I guess I'm too much of a country hick and would use a tree branch if that was all I had! ......
Michele, before making these handles, the only bowl gouges I had ever used were the 20+ year old ones that came with an old lathe I purchased. They seemed a little short by todays standards. After seeing and reading about(but never using) all the options in handles that are out there now...you could probably give me a tree branch. :)

[Wally Dickerman]

I have a couple of old Glaser tools with metal shot filled handles. I seldom use them. I much prefer wood handles and grip them according to what I'm turning. Most of us choke up on gouges more than we realize. I've added just a little lead shot to 2 of my gouges and like the feel. I've added a lot of lead shop to some heavy duty scrapers and recommend it.

My first bowl gouge is a sorby purchased just a couple of years after they started marketing them in the US. About 1982 I think. The handle is 12 inches long. It's been used up long ago..2 inches of flute left and I think that it wasn't tempered that far down.

When the bowl gouge first came out they came ground straight across like a spindle roughing tool. That's the way everybody used them then. Before long there was an article in Fine Woodworking that suggested grinding a fingernail grind. I immediately did that and was surprised at how much better the tool worked.