Thoughts on building this built in cabinet.

[keith micinski]

My customer wants me to build this built in with no face frame. Now they want me to take the doors out to and just make the side cabinets all shelfs. Any suggestions on how to build these? They want the shelfs to be adjustable and I was originally planning on making the top of the doors a fixed shelf to help stabilize the middle. I guess I could still do this but wanted to see what you guys thought.

[Jamie Buxton]

The middle panel -- the one that the TV's mounted into -- will hold the inboard wall straight. The backs behind the shelves will hold the outboard walls straight, pretty much. So structurally you're probably okay with full-height adjustable shelving.

That said, to my eye the walls are going to look darn wimpy if they're only 3/4" plywood. Just for appearance alone, I'd want to make them 1" or 1 1/4" thick. There's a structural benefit, too, from making them thicker: they're stiffer, and aren't going to wave around in the breeze. (To get thicker plywood, I'd buy thicker stuff -- my suppliers stock 1" hardwood plywood -- or I'd laminate two layers of plywood. Be careful when you're laminating to make panels that are straight, not bent.)

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

I would consider making the middle shelf on each side fixed, with the others (upper and lower shelves) adjustable. Seriously, how ar do people adjust shelves? A handful of height options for each shelf would be enough. Plywood help keep things straight, and 1" thick ply is a good suggestion.

[keith micinski]

I think I might just make the middle shelf fixed. I agree on the thinness of the 3/4 but they don't want a face frame and they are adamit about it. The outer wall is going to have a piece of casing covering most of it so the inside wall is the only one showing, maybe I will just double it up.

[Paul Incognito]

Keith,
I'd build that as 5 seperate cabinets, 3 base units and 2 uppers. They'll generally look more balanced if the bases are a little bit deeper than the uppers. Upper cabs deeper than 12" tend to get things lost in the back and a base unit less than 18" may not fit video/audio equipment. The top of the middle base unit should definitely be thicker than 3/4" or it will sag under the weight of the tv.
Hope this helps,
Paul

[Don Jarvie]

You can use a blind dado for the middle pieces of the side cabinets which is the dado will stop approx 1 inch from the front and the shelf gets notched.

If you are going to use plywood you have to cover the edges so you can use full dados for the front and what ever covers the edge will hide the dado.

Pauls idea is a good one and probably easier to build since its 5 cases.

Don

[keith micinski]

I wish I could post the actual sketchup drawing but I couldn't figure out how to. The side cabinets are 18 inches deep and the middle section is 12 inches but it is going to really be just moving the wall out 12 inches and covering it in bead board so the tv has something to hang on. I agree about the top shelves being to deep but since this is going to be built into the wall at 18 inches I guess I would have to build it in 5 pieces to achieve that. Thanks for the ideas so far. I forgot to say that this cabinet is going to get painted white and since there is no face frame and I am using plywood I wood just use the iron on veneer for the faces. I don't like the way 3/4 hardwood sticks off ofthe front when it is only 3/4 wide.

[John TenEyck]

The only way I know how to show your original SketchUp file is to post that file to some page on another website and provide a link to it here. I don't know of a way to include it here as an attachment, etc. If I'm wrong on this, someone please let me know because I'd like to include them here as well, sometimes.

[keith micinski]

I think what I am going to do is build it in 5 pieces and make the upper two shelves only 12 inches deep. I am then going to dado in all of the shelves and edge band the edges with the veneer and paint it. I think I can talk the client into not making the shelves adjustable.

[matt tennessen]

Not sure what the span is on that lower shelf but I might be a little concerned about sagging (if it's still just 3/4" ply).

[keith micinski]

I am not good enough to draw crown molding in sketch up so the shelves are just the basic rectangles but I usually put a rib in the middle and a piece of small crown across the front to stiffen the shelf up and make it look better

[Paul Incognito]

Keith,
I do all of my shelving units with adjustable shelves. It takes a little more time than fixed shelves, but I feel it's worth it. Once people get the shelves positioned it's very rare they'll ever get moved again, but most of my customers appreciate the option. I use a Veritas drilling jig http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32251&cat=1,180,42311 and it works just fine.
Have fun with the build and post some pics when it's done!
Paul

[keith micinski]

I made my own jig out of some peg board but it just seems like adjustable shelves never get adjusted. I hope to get started by the end of next week.

[Don Jarvie]

I just finished making a 17" wide X 30" deep X 90" high kitchen cabinet. I just 3/4 ply and 1/2 ply for the back. Rabbited the top and back and dadoed the middle and bottom shelf. I also painted this so I counter sunk a few screws for the shelves and used 7/8 stables instead of brads to add a little strength.

This piece weighed a ton and I would have needed a sledge hammer to break it apart so as long as the middle shelf is permanent make the others adjustable. It will be easier since you only need to make 1 middle dado and not 3 or 4.

For paint I used the Benj Moore oil based enamel and use a foam roller unless you are spraying. Any knap on a roller may leave an orange peel texture so the smoothest the better.

Don

[keith micinski]

I think I am going to either make them all adjustable or make them all fixed because it seems like one shelf fixed would stand out. I have a really nice airless Graco sprayer that I have only used a few times so I am thinking about trying it out.

[keith micinski]

here is the final Sketchup drawing. Pay no attention to the middle being off by a 16th. I am sure there is an easy way to fix that but I don't know what it is.

[Don Jarvie]

You need at least 1 shelf fixed so the cabinet won't bow on the sides preferably the 3rd one down. Countersink and wood putty a few screws for the fixed shelf and that will be strong as an ox.

When the edge banding goes on the fixed shelf won't be that noticable.

Don

[keith micinski]

So This is what I ended up doing.

[Bruce Page]

Keith, that looks great! I like the changes that you made from your last design.

[Todd Burch]

Fixed shelves - definitely better. I'm getting to the point that I don't want to do fixed shelves any more. I dislike the black holes, and as was pointed out above, once they are set, they never move. 10 minutes of THINKING will determine what the spacing needs to be. Duh.

Good job. I like the wider trim on the stiles and that you used the wall to take care of the space between the shelves. I'm not a fan of that dust-catcher space on top of the wall, but to each their own - I'm sure your client is happy with it. Mine would never get dusted.

I like the edging on the front of the shelves too - much classier than skinny painted veneer tape.

A few questions...


With what and how did you end up painting it?
What finished floor will there be?
Will the floor be high enough to cover the gap at the bottom, or will there be another piece of trim added after the floor is installed?
What about holes in the case for routing wires?


Is this a one-time commission or do you do these a lot? Your primary avocation or sideline?

Todd

[Todd Burch]

Are the door handles installed upside down on the left unit in photo 7, or is that the lighting? (cell phone camera?)

[Van Huskey]

Very nice indeed!

[keith micinski]

The door handles weren't installed in that photo on the left that is just duct tape.

[keith micinski]

Fixed shelves - definitely better. I'm getting to the point that I don't want to do fixed shelves any more. I dislike the black holes, and as was pointed out above, once they are set, they never move. 10 minutes of THINKING will determine what the spacing needs to be. Duh.

Good job. I like the wider trim on the stiles and that you used the wall to take care of the space between the shelves. I'm not a fan of that dust-catcher space on top of the wall, but to each their own - I'm sure your client is happy with it. Mine would never get dusted.

I like the edging on the front of the shelves too - much classier than skinny painted veneer tape.

A few questions...

With what and how did you end up painting it?
What finished floor will there be?
Will the floor be high enough to cover the gap at the bottom, or will there be another piece of trim added after the floor is installed?
What about holes in the case for routing wires?

Is this a one-time commission or do you do these a lot? Your primary avocation or sideline?

Todd

I also hated the gap and even explained that it wasn't really going to save them any money because the plywood comes in 8 foot sheets but they wanted it that way so thats how I did it. The customer thought that they might want adjustable shelves but I basically told them I wouldn't do it for all of the reasons you specified.

1.Well I started painting with an airless sprayer that proceeded to waste an entire gallon of paint and make a big mess and generally screw everything up ( I had a thread about it). I then had to use a smooth foam mini roller and a brush for 90 percent of the work. I wised up and did a little research and ordered the earlex HVLP and sprayed the final coat on. In all of the projects I have ever done the painting of this cabinet was the most miserable and time consuming thing I have ever done. It took probably 4 times longer then I would have thought, (partly because the sprayer failed me and the earlex didn't come in time) and if I ever get a large painted job like this again I will seriously consider hiring a painter. The paint I used was a high gloss acrylic.
2. Carpet
3. Yes the carpet will cover that up. I will say though in my own house I always install the trim last but I have noticed no one else ever does that. I also would never consider putting up a piece of trim that hasn't been painted but everyday I see someone on tv do just that so there must be something I am missing.
4. The holes are behind the receivers and down low so you can't see them. Then they go behind the cabinet and over to the tv. the tv has a hole cut out behind it that you can reach in to hook things up to the tv and the power strip is in there. In hind sight I wish I would have made the holes a little bigger for future use but there should be enough cables there to meet future needs.

Well I am a heavy equipment operator by trade but I grew up watching norm and decided to teach myself how to do wood working and I absolutely love it. I am laid off in the winters and hope some day that I could be lucky enough to turn this into a full time gig. I have actually picked some more work up from this client trying to "tune up" some built-ins they have upstairs that came with the house and were really done poorly considering the caliber of the home. I also just got a call from there friend to do an entire 14 foot tall wall of library cabinets and I want to build a custom library ladder and track system but I have never done a project anywhere near that scope so I am a little nervous about it.

[keith micinski]

Also I really like the way that the bead board backs look and I will probably only use bead board for backs from now on but man did they stink to paint. I do wish I had a better source for bead board then the crap they sell at Lowes because I think that was part of the painting problem. I have a moulding head for the saw I bought and I am considering buying a bead board cutter for it but it sure would be easier to just buy a good product and not have to mess with it because that seems like something that could get tedious.

[Todd Burch]

I recently bought bead board for the back of a built-in I am doing in our master closet (will post a thread in another week or so) and bead board has traditionally been a pain to find a good quality piece (for me). I've used it for several projects. Georgia Pacific used to make a nice one with fairly deep (for 1/4" ply, anyways) V's on each side of a nice, rounded bead. But, then they went to a more flat-bead (in reality, more like two shallow V grooves on either side of a flat - no real bead to it). I called GP and discussed their discontinuance of the good stuff (this is circa 1999) and they explained that the deeper V's exposed more voids in the plys and painters did not like it. They showed empathy for my plight, and the customer service person I was talking to even liked the older version better, but they said their market didn't want the voids. So, no more of that product from GP. (Made no sense to me - they made the stupid 1/4" ply they were V grooving... Duh.)

On a side note, I was in a house recently where the painters were caulking EVERY SINGLE GROOVE in bead board wainscoting, which pretty much makes GP's excuse for changing their product a moot point - in other words - quality painters know how to fill voids.

I got my most recent BB at Home Depot, and now (someone - forgot to look to see who the manufacturer was) makes an MDF bead board. It looked good, and @ $20/sheet, already pre-primed, I gave it a go. It worked well enough, although ripping the 4X8 sheet on the TS was a bit like trying to stiffen up wet noodles - it is pretty heavy and flimsy at the same time.

Thanks for the additional info Keith. Always trying to learn more myself!

Tip: paint (spray) your backs before you put them on your cases. This makes the cases easier to spray too. And, with bead board, you get a free hall-pass for not having caulk between the case sides and back. Best of both worlds!

[keith micinski]

Ya, when I planned on spraying the boxes I knew it wouldn't matter that much if the back was on or not plus I was being held up by the general on the job and just wanted to get something accomplished so I put the backs on more just to do something then anything else, but I didn't have 10 gallons of paint to go through to get everything painted with the airless. I forgot to mention I missed on the painting but I also really missed on the installation. It was amazing how much time all of the little finishing details took and I would say it took 2 to 3 times as long to install as I thought it would.

[Todd Burch]

...I forgot to mention I missed on the painting but I also really missed on the installation. It was amazing how much time all of the little finishing details took and I would say it took 2 to 3 times as long to install as I thought it would.

Welcome to built-ins!

Try bidding out a job to take 3 months, and then spending 6. That's a life changer.