Teeth Fell of my Freud Combination Blade, what the?

[Jeremy Greiner]

I read a lot of good reviews about the Freud Combination blade on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000225V8 and thought it would be a good blade to use while I send off my forrest blade for sharpening. I haven't had the blade for very long 2 weeks or so, been cutting mostly 2x4 stock on it recently, though I did cut some purple heart for a cutting board a few days ago. That's the toughest thing I've cut on it but it still seems odd.

To be honest, it's possible the teeth got knocked off during shipping and I didn't notice, I know that's horrible of me to say but I think back and can't 100% be certian that all the teeth were present (I know I'll be checking in the future). I suppose it's also possible the teeth where there, but damaged to the point of easily being knocked off I don't know.

Amazon is sending me a replacement so there isn't really any harm.

What should I look for in the future (besides checking to make sure all the teeth are there) for any warning signs to see if the teeth are going to break off?

PS. I wanted to add, this isn't a knock against freud, the blade has worked great, I think it's most likely a problem from shipping not manufacturing.

-jeremy

[Larry Frank]

I have used Freud blades for years and not had a problem. I would guess that Freud would really like to get the blade back and the teeth so that they can determine what happened. In this case, I would guess that they have technical people who could look at the blade or tooth fracture surface and have a good idea what when wrong.

Maybe, you could contact them and find out if they want the blade back.

[Anthony Whitesell]

While your on the phone with Freud asking if they would like to see the blade, you can ask them what you should look for. If you suspect shipping damage, then I would atleast use a magnifying glass or magnifying lamp to make a cursory inspection of the brazing of the teeth.

[Jeremy Greiner]

I didn't think about that Larry, I already made arrangements with Amazon to send the blade back to them as soon as I get the replacement blade. I doubt amazon would actually give the blade back to freud they will most likely throw it away.

[Bill White]

My Freud combo is a workhorse. Freud needs to see the blade.
Bill

[Tom Walz]

In no way is tip loss the fault of the user. A properly brazed carbide tipped will have a braze joint that is stronger than either the carbide or the steel. This means that the carbide will break or the steel will break or rip but the braze joint will not give way.

Tungsten carbide is made to be wear and corrosion resistant. This can make it difficult to braze. Typically tungsten carbide saw tips go through a special treatment to clean the surface and to prepare the surface for brazing.

If the tips are made improperly, if the surface treatment is not done or if the surface treatment is done improperly then the saw tips may come off the saw.

If it is a problem with a surface treatment on the carbide then the tips will come off and leave the braze alloy on the steel body.

Another cause of tip loss is improper preparation of the steel saw body. Saw bodies are typically laser cut. The laser actually melts the steel and the molten steel is blown out by a gas. This leaves the edge of the saw plate heat affected with an oxide layer. It is similar to what blacksmiths call upset. This area needs to be ground back to get a good surface for brazing. If the areas not ground back enough or ground back at all then there can be problems with tip loss.

I have been doing analysis on this problem since 1981. You can see some of my work at this address: http://www.carbideprocessors.com/pages/Saw-Blades.html (http://www.carbideprocessors.com/pages/Saw-Blades.html)

Sometimes the tips come out clean, sometimes they break and sometimes it's a combination of both. Here is a link to help identify breakage problems: http://www.carbideprocessors.com/pages/Saw-tip-Breakage.html (http://www.carbideprocessors.com/pages/Saw-tip-Breakage.html)


Brazing laser cut steel:

http://www.carbideprocessors.com/pages/Steel-Brazing%252d-Brazing-to-Laser-Cut-Steel.html

http://blog.carbideprocessors.com/brazing-carbide/brazing-laser-cut-steel/

[Charlie Barnes]

I used to work for a branch of the Federal Government many years ago that purchased many general items including saw blades. The company that made them had a special fixture that they would use to test the brazing. They would jig up the blade and lower a heavy metal (lead?) jacket over it before spinning it up to 10,000 RPM. I never saw one fail, but could only imagine what a saw tooth breaking loose at 10,000 RPMs would do to anyone or anything it hit. I agree with the previous poster that if you contacted Freud, they might be interested to get the blade back. I work for a major auto OEM now and we return replaced parts from dealers to suppliers all the time for the same purpose. It might be nothing. Or it could be the beginning of a major field problem. Who knows?

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm no engineer, but I have to think if the whole tooth is gone it's a manufacturer problem. I've seen plenty of chipped teeth over the years, but I can't remember ever seeing an entire tooth missing. I'm not knocking Freud either, I have plenty of their blades that work very well. Could just be a oddball?

good luck,
JeffD

[Thom Porterfield]

In no way is tip loss the fault of the user. A properly brazed carbide tipped will have a braze joint that is stronger than either the carbide or the steel. This means that the carbide will break or the steel will break or rip but the braze joint will not give way. ...


I'm no engineer, but I have to think if the whole tooth is gone it's a manufacturer problem. I've seen plenty of chipped teeth over the years, but I can't remember ever seeing an entire tooth missing. ...

This is true.

Until you try to rip through an embedded deck screw with your Freud glue-line rip blade.
Then, MANY teeth go totally missing from the blade---those still attached are pretty much toast.

Yes, this happened to me and fortunately, none of the flying bits made it out of the wood...or set fire to the dust in the Unisaw.

[Jeremy Greiner]

I must have the worst luck ever, I recieved the replacement blade today from amazon they next day aired me a new blade for free (how can I say no to speedy delivery like that!)

I checked very single tooth before I removed the plastic, I found the cardboard had 2 holes punctured in it .. and at the very spot .. a broken tooth.
209935

I removed the plastic around the broken tooth to get a better picture, even then the quality isn't the best but I hope you can get an idea. The other blade looks like this but the teeth are missing (fallen or broken off who knows when).

I have to send the original blade back to Amazon as part of our agreement, I can call freud tomorrow though to see what they want to do about the blade if they want it or if I should return it to Amazon again.

The big question is, should I have Amazon send me a 3rd blade or just get a refund?

-jeremy

[Jeremy Greiner]

I couldn't find a phone # for freud or hours to call, just a webform so I filled it out and submitted it, we'll see if they call or email me back.

-jeremy

[Mark Engel]

Tough call on whether to have Amazon send a new blade. I am sure Freud would want to know what is going on.

FYI, I have purchased all of my Freud blades on Amazon (currently have 5), and I have never seen this. All of the blades have arrived in perfect condition, despite the efforts of the Amazon shippers.

[Jeremy Greiner]

That makes me feel a little better Mark, at least I know Amazon is capable of sending a good blade if I go that route. They may have had one of the boxes of blade drop from an insanely high spot in the warehouse, and the kid didn't want to get in trouble so he just put the box back on the shelf, I don't know.

[Paul McGaha]

Jeremy,

Sorry for all this bad luck. I've had really good luck with and like Freud products a lot.

I hope this gets resolved to your satisfaction.

I think I'm mostly using tools-plus these days for Freud products.

PHM

[Kevin Presutti]

If it is only several weeks old I would contact Amazon if that is where you purchased it. I have purchased and sent back to Amazon several things but never saw blades and they were very good about it. As long as there are no chips in the other teeth you probably have a legitimate claim. There will always be a bad one slipping through every now and again. You should be able to see if there is silver solder on the blade itself and determine if the carbide came off cleanly or if it shattered there will most likely be a small piece or two left on the blade. If the tooth is completely gone and no chips in the other teeth definately call Amazon. I love my Freud Glue Line Rip ICE blade, it loves to make chips with no effort at all. Bestof luck!

Kevin

[Tom Ferone]

Here is the phone number if you need it.
Phone: (800) 334-4107

With the blade package peirced, then yes it was dropped had on the edge.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Tom - what about dropping the blade onto a hard surface? Would that result in a cracked/broken tooth, or some other type of identifiable damage?

[Kevin Presutti]

Man the just sucks! Are you buying the Industrial (BEST) blade or the Diablo (lower grade). Just an added thought! ALL of my Freud blades a of the Industrial family, very happy, and from Amazon as well.

Kevin

[Jeremy Greiner]

Hi Kevin, yes its the industrial brand of Freud blades, see if I can get ahold f Freud tomorrow by phone to see if the want to replace the blade otherwise I'll send this one back to amazon as well.

[scott spencer]

...The big question is, should I have Amazon send me a 3rd blade or just get a refund?

-jeremy

That's really up to you. They'll eventually get one right, but if you've lost confidence or patience with them, I'd suggest trying an Infinity Combomax (http://www.infinitytools.com/Combination-Saw-Blades/products/1196/) 010-050, Tenryu RS25550 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000G1KO86/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0019ML3YK&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1RWE6T4G54BXK8DH32ST), or Onsrud combo (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=onsrud+10+com+126-50+blade&_sacat=0&_odkw=onsrud+10+blade&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313).

[glenn bradley]

That sure makes it conclusive that Amazon is just mishandling the product. I had a similar problem with jamestown Distributors and some Nicholson rasps. Took a few tries to get rasps that didn't look like they had been pulled for a bucket full of rocks (mashed over teeth and one was actually bent). I have bought Freuds from Amazon without issue but, something (or someone) at the distribution warehouse that is serving you needs some attention/instruction.

P.s. The Woodworker II I got through Amazon was very poor. At the time I didn't know better and am ashamed to say I talked smack about the product. I had it properly sharpened and it has cut as good as my Freuds ever since.

[Joe Bradshaw]

I had a Freud rip blade throw a tooth one time. Luckily I was wearing my turning smock at the time and it stopped the tooth. I wound up with a big bruise and a knot on my forearm. I was able to find the tooth and I took it back to Woodcraft where I had purchased it. The Freud rep was there at the time and gave me a replace blade with no problems. I had only used the blade a few times(it still had the factory paint on it). I have been happy with Freud blades.

[Jeremy Greiner]

From Freud

"I am sorry to hear that you received not only one but two damaged blades. Most of the time when you get a blade that is missing a tooth or it has a cracked tooth it has been dropped somewhere in the shipping process. While it is possible to get two damaged blades it is pretty rare. Since you have already returned one I have attached a UPS return label. You can either use that and send it here or you can return it to Amazon. Either way we get the blade back here. If you send it in here then once we receive the blade we will send out a warranty replacement right away. Which ever way you choose to do it would be fine with me.

Jim"

It's good to know they will get the blades when I send them back to Amazon, since amazon is willing to overnight it to me, I'd like to try them again but I'm also worried I'll get a third broken blade.

Decisions Decisions.

-jeremy

[Jerrimy Snook]

what about dropping the blade onto a hard surface? Would that result in a cracked/broken tooth, or some other type of identifiable damage?

Yes, a blade dropped onto a concrete floor may break the carbide or bend the steel shoulder. It all depends on all the physics of the fall. I have dropped blades from 3-4 ft onto a concrete floor with and without blade damage. Some times the fall doesn't hurt the blade but the rolling after the fall does. Carbide can break if set onto a steel table or bumped into other saw teeth (try to keep blades separated by cardboard or something).

Freud carbide is more brittle than some other carbide tips out there. This is good for long life in clear, defect free, material without foreign objects. Unfortunately all material and all users are different.

This particular situation appears to be an Amazon/Shipper/Packaging problem not a Freud problem.

Jerrimy

[Tom Walz]

I am going to second Jerrimy Snook on this. As I have posted before, Jerrimy Snook is an extremely good saw filer. I consider him to be one of the best in the country. We routinely refer people to him for application issues. Having said all that, I am certainly not going to do disagree with him.

There is obviously a handling issue here. Were this a saw blade that I were selling I would specify a tougher grade of carbide than Freud uses. However a long life saw tip, that is also tough, is a bit more expensive typically than the tips Freud uses to give long life. As many of you have pointed out Freud makes very good quality blades that sell at very good prices.

Yes, dropping the blade on a hard surface may cause damage.

One of the major suppliers in the saw tip industry is selling a very hard grade of saw tip which gives excellent life is in clean cutting applications. However, in my opinion, I do not think these tips are suitable for general use. Again, in my opinion only, I think that these tips are a little too likely to fracture. We sell and use a different tip from a different manufacturer.

[Josiah Bartlett]

Amazon's suppliers (they drop ship a lot of stuff from the factory or other places) seem to minimize their packaging for certain items by shipping them in less and less until customers complain about things breaking. I ordered a muffler and tailpipe a few months ago and the Fedex guy gave me a funny look. It showed up on my door with the shipping labels applied right to the muffler, no packaging at all.

[Jeremy Greiner]

Received my 3rd blade today, was hoping 3rd times the charm, but no such luck 3 teeth broken on this blade. At this point I think I'm just going to get a refund, I don't know what the problem is, and at this point I don't care anymore. I'm not sure what I'm going to do, but I can say that I'm fed up.

[Richard Wagner]

I'm confused. You've only had the blade for a couple weeks and have been using it and yet you are surmising that the teeth may have been lost in shipping??

If this is at all possible I would suggest that you should have noticed when you received the blade. I think you are awfully fortunate that Amazon is replacing the blase.

[Jeremy Greiner]

Hi Richard,
You are correct you are confused.

The first blade I received I didn't check the teeth like I should have, I noticed the teeth completely missing from the blade after some minor use.

I contacted amazon and they overnighted me a new blade, this blade the teeth where there but one was broken at the brazing, I posted a picture in a previous post.

After contacting Amazon again, they sent me a third blade which I just received this time 3 teeth where broken in the same manner.