Major Combination Machine Manufacturers

[Peter Murphy]

'm establishing a new woodworking shop and wish to purchase, preferably a 5 in 1 machine, i am willing to spend between $A10,000 to $A16,000.00 to achieve this.
However i'm "very green", that is new to this whole process, and not even aware what is available in the market place. Can anybody suggest a few manufactures that i could look at.
I have already traveled to the Minimax showroom in Melbourne and indeed the Felder showroom to look at some Hammer machines.
I studied the Laguna website, but only seen a picture of the corresponding Robland machine.
Can anybody suggest other machines i might consider in this price range, my intention is make furniture but the space in my shop is restricted so a combo seems to offer the best compromise.
I particularly interested in hearing from people with "Hands on experience" with such machines, who can offer a critical performance based opinion.


Cheers Woodsy11

[David Kumm]

Here in the US the market is dominated by Felder and Minimax. In europe there are more choices. If you have access to Furniture and cabinet making magazine from the UK you can get info about other machines. Felder makes several model ranges. Hammer is the cheapest, followed by the 500 series which generally has hammer internals and the felder X roll table, and the 700 series which has far stouter internals and the x roll sliding table. Minimax makes machines that compete with the 500 and 700 series. The best combo machine was made by Knapp but sadly they are no longer in business. The Robland is a pretty good machine but generally considered a step down from the Felder and MM. Rojek is an eastern europe brand and less expensive as well. Laguna machines are sourced in different countries, some in Bulgaria, some in Taiwan I believe but I'm not into Laguna machines so I may be incorrect. The MM elite S and the Felder 700 are the pick of the litter but likely priced over your budget. I don't know the availability of used but take a look. There is a Felder Owners Group and a Minimax group on Yahoo. There are many Felder people from AU on the group so you should find answers. I would join and ask opinions from some of them. If you can find a good used machine, go for it. Most combo machines are hobbiest owned and lightly used. Good luck, Dave

[Brian Krause]

About 2 years ago I did my own research into the combination machines, and finally decided on the Felder 700 series saw/shaper (KF700P) and jointer/planer (AD741) combo machines. Their 5-in-1 combo is the CF741. Let me first start off by saying that I am more than satisfied with my decision; the machines perform with a precision that is quite remarkable. I had been debating between the 500 and 700 series, as the price jump between the two is significant. The two features that most influenced the decision to go with the 700 series was the heavy duty trunion assembly and quick change spindle on the saw/shaper. The trunnion is massive, extremely stiff and with no discernable flex at any angle on both the saw and shaper units. The quick change spindle on the shaper was really the final deciding point, as the 500 series does not have this. What this allows, is the ability to change between a massive shaper spindle, and a high speed router spindle in less than 2 minutes, very easily. I must admit, however, that I use the shaper much more than the router spindle for most operations. The downside to the shaper is the cost of the tooling, but the fiinish it gives you beats the router spindle hands down.

As for the jointer/planer, I went with the AD741 due to it's 16" capacity. I guess that I took to heart the old adage, "Cry once while buying, smile forever while using". Now when I can joint a 15" board whole without having to rip and reglue, it is a wonderful thing.

So far dealing with Felder has been the best experience I have ever had in customer service. Much of that is likely due to the exorbitant costs involved, but it is much appreciated and something that many US companies could learn from. If you decide to go with Felder, buying one of their machines is like purchasing a luxury automobile. The options are too numerous to immediately grasp, and quickly drive the price up. I would suggest taking a lot of time to understand what those options are, as it can be quite confusing looking at the catalogue. They often have used machines for sale, so that is always an option. Also, if you have not seen it yet, Felder has a great video of the CF741 in action on their website. If you have any questions about the 700 series machines, I would be happy to relate my experiences with them.

Hope this helps,
Brian

[Stephen Cherry]

I like Brians strategy, I have a felder K975, and it would be great to have a shaper attatched. As far as adding more functions, I would go with a saw-shaper and jointer-planer. There really is no great reason that they should be built together. I also agree that Felder customer service is great. I bought my saw used, but the help that they gave me was very capable. As far as options go, make sure to get at least one eccentric clamp, they are not cheap, but when you see how it's constructed, it's a relative bargin.

[Mike Ruggeri]

I have the MM CU300 Smart with the 8.5 foot slider. I love the machine. I have a relatively small shop and having the machine on casters makes it easy to move around if I have to (although it generally stays in one place). I looked at several brands (including Hammer) before I got the MM and decided to either buy a MM or a Felder. I don't think you can go wrong with either MM or Felder as they both seem like top notch machines. Having the slider is great as is the Tersa head in the jointer/planer. I don't use my shaper as much as I should but it is nice to have and I am trying to use it more as I acquire cutters. I have my machine on Zambus casters which I think are much better than the MM mobility system. Oh, and I bought mine used which saved a good amount of $$$ so I would recommend keeping your eyes open for possible deals.

Let us know if you have any specific questions.

Mike

[Brian Krause]

I second the Zambus casters, great to have on all heavy machinery to move and level as needed.

Brian

[David Kumm]

Stephen mentioned the eccentric clamp. If you want to see a neat clamp, and I know Mac is sending one to AU, look at airtightclamps.com Mac Campshure makes great pneumatic clamps. They are light years better than the eccentric ones. I also wish Felder made a saw shaper in the 900 series. That would be the best. Griggio also makes combo machines. I don't know the availability where you are. They don't have much presence here although Martin is starting to sell rebadged units. Dave

[Peter Kelly]

Here in the US the market is dominated by Felder and Minimax. In europe there are more choices. If you have access to Furniture and cabinet making magazine from the UK you can get info about other machines. Felder makes several model ranges. Hammer is the cheapest, followed by the 500 series which generally has hammer internals and the felder X roll table, and the 700 series which has far stouter internals and the x roll sliding table. Minimax makes machines that compete with the 500 and 700 series. The best combo machine was made by Knapp but sadly they are no longer in business. The Robland is a pretty good machine but generally considered a step down from the Felder and MM. Rojek is an eastern europe brand and less expensive as well. Laguna machines are sourced in different countries, some in Bulgaria, some in Taiwan I believe but I'm not into Laguna machines so I may be incorrect. The MM elite S and the Felder 700 are the pick of the litter but likely priced over your budget. I don't know the availability of used but take a look. There is a Felder Owners Group and a Minimax group on Yahoo. There are many Felder people from AU on the group so you should find answers. I would join and ask opinions from some of them. If you can find a good used machine, go for it. Most combo machines are hobbiest owned and lightly used. Good luck, Dave

When did Knapp go out of business? http://www.lagunatools.com/combo/Knapp-16-Jointer-Planer

Have owned both Robland and MiniMax machines. Both are good. I wouldn't say Robland is a step down at all.

Casadei make some nice combination machines as well: http://casadeibusellato.it/en/c_30_c_c_41_c

[ian maybury]

+1 that the saw shaper plus separate planer thicknesser combo route is a good choice if you are tight on shop space and want to save a little. I have Hammer separates, but am quite tight for space and in retrospect think that a Hammer/Felder saw shaper combo probably gives away very little in function but gains on space, cost and availability of the adjacent slider.

My previous machine was a Robland X-260 (10in planer) combo. Actually an excellent machine in many respects, with sound basics. i.e. good solid castings, reasonable power, a capable saw, an accurate and consistent planer thicknesser, and a capable but limited spindle. (speed settings and tilt).

The consequences of the relatively low cost came to light mostly in terms of the quality of the accessories and fittings - a short and weak rip fence, hard to set up and short slider (solid once done though), roughly made accessory parts, trial and error to get to a setting as a result of the previous, and limited room to manoeuver on the small top surface. e.g. the jointer infeed table projects into the space that should really accommodate a longer rip fence guide.

All in all a solid basic platform at low cost, and a decent choice for small work for a person prepared to put the time in to figure out ways around its limitations - but most definitely not in the Felder/Hammer space.

It's often suggested, but if there's a decent especially private sale market buying used can be a good way of getting into a higher spec machine for reasonable money...

ian

[David Kumm]

When did Knapp go out of business? http://www.lagunatools.com/combo/Knapp-16-Jointer-Planer

Have owned both Robland and MiniMax machines. Both are good. I wouldn't say Robland is a step down at all.

Casadei make some nice combination machines as well: http://casadeibusellato.it/en/c_30_c_c_41_c

Peter, I think the last machines were built 2007 or early 2008. They show up used pretty reasonably due to the fear of no support. Except for castings, their electrics and fences are standard off the shelf- but high quality- stuff so IMO that isn't a big issue. They just refused to change the way they built machines and because they sold through dealers they priced themselves out of the market. They were more heavily built than Felder or MM. Dave

[Jeff Monson]

Peter, I'll throw in another vote for seperate machines, I have a Hammer J/P and a Felder KF700 saw/shaper. I'm very pleased with the performance and space savings of both mahcines. With your budget, you should be able to pick up 2 new Hammer units. A B3 winner comfort and an A3-31 would make 2 really nice machines in any workshop. Make sure to configure your machines for your needs though, thats the next tough decision. Unless you have a really big shop I'd stay away from a "5 in 1" machine, its nice to have combo machines to save space....but dont put all your eggs in one basket.
If you have visited the Felder showroom, I'm sure you are well aware of the outstanding customer service you will recieve with any machine you purchase from them. Thats worth a whole lot in my book also.

[Rod Sheridan]

I have a small shop with the Hammer A3-31 jointer/planer and the B3 Winner saw/shaper/

Both have been great decisions in my opinion. I really like having a tilting spindle shaper with a sliding table, that really spoils you.

The 5 in 1 combo wasn't the best space choice for my shop, with the J/P as a stand alone, it made shop space utilisation much more effective.

As others have said there are many machine choices, make sure the one you pick has enough available optional accessories to satisfy you for the next 10 years. Likewise on the true machine options which can only be added at the factory. Making a major goof on that issue has led people to sell and re=purchase to get the options they want.

To me, scoring is one of those options, you may not use it much, however it will save a bundle of money in ruined work pieces if you use veneered or laminated materials.

Regards, Rod.

[Chris Tsutsui]

Before I buy a combination machine I would want to physically try it out do the conversions and see how it will work in my shop. I would contact that manufacturer and they will see that you try it out at a show, event, showroom, or an existing owner.

I feel that I can't get a very good grasp on a combo machine unless it's there in front of me to use.