Fishtail chisels

[Maurice Ungaro]

Anyone have any experience using both the L-N and the Blue Spruce fishtails? Also interested in what size(s) are most beneficial. It's a no-brained to see their usefulness in half-blind DTs.

[Jim Matthews]

I went a different direction to skin the same cat, the LV detail chisels (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=46035&cat=1,41504) made after Yeung Chan's design.

Two Benjamins for a set wasn't cheap, but they're very useful in many applications, not only with dovetail adjustments.

[Mike Henderson]

In my opinion, there's no reason to spend a lot of money on a fishtail chisel for dovetails - it just doesn't get that hard of use. If you want to save some money, look at fishtail chisels in the carving tool section. You have a big selection and the steel is quite good for that application.

Mike

[And if you want to save more money, buy a couple of cheap 1/4" chisels and grind them into skews, left and right. The only disadvantage is you have to change chisels for each end, whereas the fishtail will do both with one chisel. If you're into grinding, get a wider chisel, maybe a 3/8" and grind it into a fishtail.]

[Scott Stafford]

I have both brands and in both .375" and .500" sizes; I prefer the Blue Spruce in the smaller .375" size for almost everything. I bought the LN's because they came out first but I like the shape of the Blue Spruce much better. And the fit and finish is beautiful as well.

I would start by buying the smaller size and only buy the larger if you found an application for it. I use my fishtail frequently so I never regret the price paid. Maybe I'll sell the LN's some day?

Scott in Montana

[george wilson]

Fishtail chisels or gouges are very easy to make. I have posted a set of gouges that I made from 1/4" W1 square steel. Just heat up one end red hot and flatten it out. Automatically makes a fishtail,unless you are VERY clumsy!

The gouges were then heated again on their ends,and driven against a hardwood block with steel bars of differing diameters to curve them. A square point was ground on the handle end. Drill a hole in the handle,heat up the tang red hot,and poke it into the hole MOST of the way. Sinks right in. After hardening and tempering the ends of the gouges,polish the gouges up,and finish driving the tangs into the handles.

There are a few odd chisels and gouges thrown in. The small sizes are just filed with small round files to get the grooves. No big deal. Just about everything was done with hand tools on these,except grinding the tangs tapered.

As you can see,I had chipped a point off of 1 of the skews. Dropped it just before photographing it.

The handles are just quick and dirty. At that time,I had just made about 100 handles for carving tools,and was making them functional,but not hard to make. There are 18th.C. handles like these,but not as tapered.

A few evenings work,if I recall.

[Derek Cohen]

Anyone have any experience using both the L-N and the Blue Spruce fishtails? Also interested in what size(s) are most beneficial. It's a no-brained to see their usefulness in half-blind DTs.

Hi Maurice

I cannot comment on the LN versions, but for years I used one I made for myself out of an old chisel (carefully ground away) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Dovetailchisel1.jpg

A couple of years ago I picked up the two Blue Spruce fishtails at a deceased estate sale. They were unused. I am so pleased that I bought them as they are fantastic - well shaped and hold the edge forever. If I was buying just one I would get the 1:6 ratio as this can do it all. I suspect that I may have been the one to tip Dave Jeske over the edge to produce these as I did nag him so! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Maurice Ungaro]

If you want to save some money, look at fishtail chisels in the carving tool section. You have a big selection and the steel is quite good ] Great suggestion, Mike!

[Maurice Ungaro]

George, very simple and elegant execution. Regading the handles, I had some period cutlery with similar handles, and you're right, they were not as tapered. What could I use in a garage workshop to heat the metal enough for shaping?

[Jim Paulson]

Awesome work on the fishtails George.

Maurice,
I've found that an old track forge with a hand cranked blower works pretty good for occasional blacksmithing projects.
I hope to make some chisels also, but for now Pfeil Swiss Made fishtails are what I buy for carving purposes. Down the road I'll try Austrian made Dastra, but the wallet won't allow it yet.

Like Mike, I haven't seen the need for fishtails in making dovetail joints.

Jim

[george wilson]

I just used a MAPP gas torch for those small chisels. That was all I really had back when they were made. You can take some DRY bricks and lay them into a small hearth. 2 bricks will do for this. Lay one down and put the other on edge to make a corner to lay the work against. Really helps keep the heat from getting lost.

Using this corner,and 2 Mapp gas torches,I was able to effectively heat about 3" of a 2" wide plane iron. Quench the chisels in a quench of enough vegetable oil to NOT GET HOT when you quench your tools. Too warmed up of a quench will not harden the steel. The steel has to cool at a certain rapid rate to "go through the gate",and get hard.

Notice,I filed down the metal in the centers of the chisels,leaving it to swoop out to full width at each end. Made them more graceful. The little "G" on top of the "W" is a brass brand I made back in the mid 60's,and still use.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Thanks Geoege -that sounds amazingly simple. With the low cost of vegetable oil, there's really no need to skimp on the volume.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I had a feeling George would reply to this thread. When I first saw the Yeung chisels at LV, I thought the small amount of metal and the simple-ish handles would lend themselves to attempting some metalworking. I haven't had the opportunity yet, but a simplified version of one of those is on my list of someday projects.

[Derek Cohen]

Those are awesome carving chisels George. They inspire me to make my own.

However I would not be considering them to clean out pin sockets, which is what I assume the OP was referring to when he asked about the LN and BS fishtails. Chiseling into endgrain may prove too much for the delicate bevels of your carvers. Carving long grain would be a pleasure.

Rergards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

They can be made more heavy duty if needed. Make them thicker. Also,grind them out of jointer knives,or old planer blades. Then,they can be left 1/8" thick all over.

[Jim Paulson]

I love this thread and this is something very interesting to me. Thanks George for firing us up on making fishtails. What steel would be best for this as a DIY project? I'm still thinking O1, but I'm really appreciating A2 these days.Jim

[Stuart Tierney]

I love this thread and this is something very interesting to me. Thanks George for firing us up on making fishtails. What steel would be best for this as a DIY project? I'm still thinking O1, but I'm really appreciating A2 these days.Jim

O1 or W1.

A2 can apparently/allegedly be home heat treated, but O1 and W1 are a doddle by comparison.

I've made a few blades from W1, some from 1095 and a bunch from O1 as well. I think the O1 is much easier to deal with than anything else, and even though it's a little more expensive than W1, it just works nearly every time and in use and while making, I think it's more forgiving.


I'd make some fishtail chisels myself, but I've already got some forged ones made by a better blade maker than anyone here. ;)

Which reminds me, I need to tell him to bash some more into shape for me. Tomorrow!


Good luck with making them. Should be a nice, simple and useful little project to cut your teeth on, metalworking wise. A bit of everything in there.

Stu.

[Jim Paulson]

O1 or W1.

A2 can apparently/allegedly be home heat treated, but O1 and W1 are a doddle by comparison.

Thanks Stu. Since I've got some O1 drill rod that is waiting to be used for something, it would be cool to try it out on a fishtail. I guess my challenge is to plan the setup for forging the different sweeps and quiz George a bit more.

FYI, Mike Burton also teaches how to do this kind of stuff in Make Your Own Woodworking Tools. I like the book and it helps motivate you, like George did on this thread.

Take care,
Jim

[Maurice Ungaro]

Since I've got some O1 drill rod that is waiting to be used for something, it would be cool to try it out on a fishtail.Jim, what diameter rod do you have to play with? I was thinking about getting some 1/4" to start with.

[Ed Looney]

I have both the LN and the Blue Spruce fishtails. If I had to do it all again I would only have the Blue Spruce. When cleaning out a socket you need a reference surface on the chisel to par a flush cut. The LN has much less flat surface on the back to reference the chisel making it more difficult to use.

Ed

[Jim Paulson]

Jim, what diameter rod do you have to play with? I was thinking about getting some 1/4" to start with.

Maurice,
I bought the O1 drill rod with diameters 3/8", 5/8", etc. to make of all things some homemade spoon bits for chairmaking LOL, but it still might happen.

Seriously though, whether you use bar stock or drill rod, 1/4" would be okay. The thing is that if the chisel width warrants it, you can upset the stock during forging to increase the available metal for the fishtail. By dropping the cherry red hot steel on an anvil, you can upset the end for making a fishtail that has the width you want. Alternatively, you can strike the heated end and upset it that way as well.

Take care,
Jim

[Maurice Ungaro]

Thanks Jim!

[Bruce Haugen]

Here's one I made by grinding down a #60 Stanley I got at a tool swap, for $1. The angle is the same as the dovetails I make, 1:6.

209898

[Jim Paulson]

Great idea Bruce! I have modified chisels by grinding also, the trick for older steel is to keep em cool.

[george wilson]

Jim means to heat the end of the bar red hot and drop it vertically on the anvil to thicken the end of the bar. That is called upsetting. Good suggestion. This would leave you with enough thickened steel on the end of the bar to hammer out into a fishtail that wasn't too thin for cutting dovetails.

Of course,my carving fishtails wee not made for dovetails. I have a few antique home made fishtails made exactly like mine,except they didn't file the metal into a swooped waist.

[Scott Stafford]

Ed,

I'm surprised you don't have the Rob Cosman inspired dovetail chisel. When cutting half-blinds it is my go to chisel for clean out. Here's a picture of the one Rob ground for me a couple years ago. It is hollow ground and sharpened on the sides as well. As you mentioned, the large registering surface is a great benefit. This one started life as a 3/4" Lie-Nielsen. I have included a L-N dovetail chisel for scale.

Scott in Montana

209962

[Gary Herrmann]

Ah heat treating. Something the color blind will be eternally awful at. *&%^$#@&!!!

[Jim Neeley]

Since I first saw Rob's I've been wondering why I haven't seen someone offering them commercially. Whether ground down from a beveled edge or a design for purpose fishtail, having the chisel with the fishtail sides beveled (and sharpened) like the face just makes too much sense for cutting sideways on the waste at the base of the pins. Maybe that's why I haven't seen any?

Has anyone else seen such a beast? I know I could learn to grind my own but have precious few shop hours as it is!!

[Stuart Tierney]

Since I first saw Rob's I've been wondering why I haven't seen someone offering them commercially. Whether ground down from a beveled edge or a design for purpose fishtail, having the chisel with the fishtail sides beveled (and sharpened) like the face just makes too much sense for cutting sideways on the waste at the base of the pins. Maybe that's why I haven't seen any?

Has anyone else seen such a beast? I know I could learn to grind my own but have precious few shop hours as it is!!

Because having sharp sides is #^%$#%^$%^ dangerous. DAMHIKT...

I've done it before on a chisel I shipped out, only took 10-15 minutes with a few coarse stones and the end result was a knife-edged weapon, but not fishtailed.

On a fishtail, as in a true fishtail, knife edged sides is just asking for serious lacerations. It'd be too easy to pull it out of the cut, and if there's a digit in the way, it's going to be cut and it's going to be nasty.

The chisels Mr. Cosman reground, the normal sides there offer some protection against getting digits diced.

If you want knife edged, you should do it yourself. Nobody else to blame when the claret runs free. ;)

Stu.

[Scott Stafford]

Not that I disagree with you Stu,

But when you think about it, with only about an inch or less of the sides sharpened, it is no more dangerous than many of my marking knives. In use, I grip the chisel right behind the sharpened area and only use it for paring the remaining fibers on final cleanup. Still, like all chisels, it must be handled with respect.

I suppose one could be manufactured with a spring loaded retractable sleeve to cover the sharpened cheeks when not in use. But we all know there is some idiot out there that would override the protective sleeve and then sue the manufacturer when he managed to cut himself.

So I guess it is up to us to make our own or coerce a friend to do it for us. With that said, let it be in writing here that I will in no manner hold Rob Cosman liable for being nice enough to grind this very useful chisel for me.


Scott in Montana

[Stuart Tierney]

I've got two fishtail chisels, proper ones.

They're not knife edged, but I've still put a few nicks (no blood) in my fingers off them.

The fellow who made them and I talked about it, and he convinced me that putting a knife edge on the side of a chisel is a bad idea when you don't know who's going to end up with it. As I can't meet everyone who'd receive any given chisel (much to my disappointment!) it must be left up to the final owner to decide whether it's needed and how to go about it. In the case of the chisels I have, I wouldn't recommend it because they're at the limit of how much metal can be there without having them fall to pieces and to not also get in the way.

Just how it is.

Never seen a genuine need for it myself to be honest. The 'pointy end' is pointy enough. ;)

Stu.

[David Keller NC]

Ah heat treating. Something the color blind will be eternally awful at. *&%^$#@&!!! Gary - There's several very easy ways around that problem. With O-1, simply heat the part you want to harden until a magnet won't stick to it (helps to glue the magnet to the end of a stick with some epoxy to avoid burned fingers - DAMHIKT). Once at the demagnetization point, quench it. That gets it brittle-hard, then simply put the whole piece in a 425 F oven for about 30 minutes, which will temper it. This procedure won't get you anywhere near as precise a result as a heat treating oven with a computer pyrometer, but I'm convinced you don't need that kind of precision to make a decent tool at home.

[george wilson]

I REALLY recommend that you do not use a kitchen oven,as they can be 75º off. If you want to make decent tools,invest in a high temp. thermometer with a long thermocouple on the back side. Brownell's sells them. Then,insert the thermocouple into the back side of a toaster oven and preheat it using the good thermometer to set the heat. After you have hardened and quenched your tool,and it is BARELY cool enough to handle BRIEFLY,stick the tool into the toaster oven to temper it. Doing it this way makes a better tool. It is called austempering.

[Dave Anderson NH]

A slight disagreement with you George on the kitchen oven. You are correct that the oven can be quite far off the temperature you turn the dial to or program into it depending on the age of your oven. I use our kitchen oven all the time for my tempering of my marking knives, awls, etc. I just take the digital Lee Valley oven thermometer I bought for Sue a few Chrismases ago and run the sensor cable into the oven. I dial in the temp I want on the oven and adjust the oven setting based on the thermometer reading until I get to wheer I need to be. LV guarantees the thermometr to be accurate with +/- 2 degrees F and that is plenty close enough.

As a general point of information for folks, the oven temperature you set for tempering will vary not only based on the kind of steel you are using, but also the crosssectional size of the part being treated and on the Rockwell hardness you want to end up at. This is definitely not one size fits all and charts are readily available from McMaster-Carr, MSC Direct, and almost avery steel supplier.

[george wilson]

Actually,Dave,I have also used a separate thermometer in a kitchen oven,too. I have gotten into using toaster ovens because they are possible to have out in the shop,can easily be put on a shelf when not needed,and was turned onto them years ago as they were recommended in tool steel publications. Plus,it takes a lot less electricity,and odors from metal work don't get into the kitchen oven.

By odors,I mean slight traces of cutting oil,or whatever. I fire blued a flintlock pistol barrel in the kitchen oven years ago. It proved to be nearly impossible to get every bit of oil out of the threads in the breech. Of course,it smoked up the oven some. Strained the oven's heating range,too!!

Then,too,a very small oven has hardly any convection currents in it.

We used one for several years in the toolmaker's shop,where we were far from any kitchen. Just a habit by now.

How expensive is that LV thermometer? I'll have to look it up.P.S.: I just did. $24.00 is a great deal. That is cheaper than the Brownell's thermometer. I'll have to get one if my present thermometer poops out.

[george wilson]

This oven thing reminds me of my wife's hassling me about saving money on power,then sticking her cheese on bread into the big oven,when we have a toaster oven right there! Since our shop is as big as the house,we do pay a lot for energy,heating 2 houses.

[David Keller NC]

Gary - George and Dave are correct, I forgot to add that you definitely want to measure and correct for inaccuracy on the oven temp. In my case, I do it with a $5 Ecko oven temp thermometer designed for cooking, but experience with my particular oven factors in as well - I know how long to leave 3/16" thick blades in mine to yield a good temper by trail and error.

[Stuart Tierney]

I've deleted this post as it appears that I might be incorrect, and placing others in danger of harming themselves.


Sorry for any confusion.

Stu.

[george wilson]

Ever had a fire ball result when heating oil to high temperatures? I have,several times,when making varnish OUT DOORS. My first time it was indoors. Fortunately just a small sample,though,In 1970,and that was never repeated indoors. Once,my wife had a fire while deep fat frying french fries. Very scary,indeed. We got it out,luckily.

Even if not at the combustible temp. of oil,the oil has a nasty habit of suddenly foaming over. The goal was to have just a slow simmer. Once it gets onto the burner,it goes off in a fireball. I used a sawn off Mapp gas canister to get as deep a pot to cook varnish in as possible,but sometimes the oil just foamed. Too fast to get it withdrawn from the fire. Rather embarrassing when a hundred foot high mushroom cloud of black smoke rushes upwards. With me hoping no one called the fire dept.!:) And,this from making a pint of oil varnish,or less. Fortunately,at the time,I lived in an area well away from other houses,but still right in town.

And,double or triple tempering does nothing unless you lower the temperature 25º each time you re temper. That is a fact.

Tool steel publications never,ever,recommend the use of hot oil. Be safe and clean. Just use an oven of some type.

[Dave Anderson NH]

We don't have a toaster oven George or else I'd probably use it. I don't worry about the smell in the kitchen since I quench in peanut oil and the residue is pretty benign and not offensive to the nose. I learned to use peanut after the first time I quenched in the basement with used motor oil and management complained quickly and loudly. While I don't always succeed, I try not to get castigated about the same "mistake" twice.

[george wilson]

Toaster ovens are what? $40.00? Easy to pick up in thrift shops,too. I mostly enjoy having one out in the shop,which is separate from the house,and I can get tools right into it as soon as they cool down just enough to handle.

[Ed Looney]

Scott

The Blue Spruce fishtail is similar in many ways to the Cosman design. The Blue Spruce models come in 3/8 and 1/2 while the Cosman is 3/4. The quality from Blue Spruce tool works is exceptional, I recommend giving them a serious look. In fact their mallets have the best feel and balance of any I have ever held or used. Not to mention that the tools from Blue Spruce are absolutely some of the best looking tools on the market today.

Ed
210368



Ed,

I'm surprised you don't have the Rob Cosman inspired dovetail chisel. When cutting half-blinds it is my go to chisel for clean out. Here's a picture of the one Rob ground for me a couple years ago. It is hollow ground and sharpened on the sides as well. As you mentioned, the large registering surface is a great benefit. This one started life as a 3/4" Lie-Nielsen. I have included a L-N dovetail chisel for scale.

Scott in Montana

209962

[Scott Stafford]

Ed,

You might have missed my earlier post. I have the Blue Spruce in both sizes as well as the L-N's , which came out earlier. My preference for the chisel ground by Rob is the large registration area and its being ground to a 7 to 1 taper that I use most often.

Beyond the Blue Spruce chisels I also have their mallets, awls, and marking knives. Wonderful products from a great guy. I haven't got a set of the butt chisels yet... and its bothering me. :O)


Scott in Montana

[Jim Neeley]

Because having sharp sides is #^%$#%^$%^ dangerous. DAMHIKT...

I've done it before on a chisel I shipped out, only took 10-15 minutes with a few coarse stones and the end result was a knife-edged weapon, but not fishtailed.

On a fishtail, as in a true fishtail, knife edged sides is just asking for serious lacerations. It'd be too easy to pull it out of the cut, and if there's a digit in the way, it's going to be cut and it's going to be nasty.

The chisels Mr. Cosman reground, the normal sides there offer some protection against getting digits diced.

If you want knife edged, you should do it yourself. Nobody else to blame when the claret runs free. ;)

Stu.

Stu,

When I said "made for purpose" I did not intend to mean to sharpen a BS-type design. What I meant was whether someone (not the original chisel manufacturer) made a business regrinding others chisels or someone made the whole tool, I liked the idea. I agree that side sharpening a stock fishtail would be an accident waiting to hapen. Even the reground model warrants significant respect, especially for one who typically holds the sides of their chisels right near the tip.